Blizzard just give up on LFR

[WowIsDead64]

LFR should be just training dummy, where I would be able to test my DPS/HPS, that would have been changed due to obtaining new items on a previous run - nothing more. But making it more like WotLK 5ppls/raids - is actually good idea. WotLK 5ppls/raids weren't hard, but they still had 1-2 mechanics, that should have been followed. And that "I'm doing everything right" feeling granted enough satisfaction to make them enjoyable.

[Deleted]

"As mentioned in the last developer Q&A, our philosophy toward Raid Finder in Legion has been to reduce the overall number of mechanics, but keep one or two important ones that players will need to react to in order to succeed"

I really don't get it and wonder if it is different on US realms but the experience on EU realms is always a the same.

A couple of people will follow tactics and essentially prop up the rest. Some will do decent dps or healing but ultimately will just tunnel and then there will be those that afk or just don't do even a minimum level.

No amount of work or though as intended by blizzard above will actually change this as we will continue to complete lfr through a combination of the players following tactics propping others up and stacks of determination.

If Blizzard generally want it engaging and making players have to wake up or learn the tactics through lfr they would be better placed to make it a single player experience like scenario where the player doesnt then have a choice but to learn.

As a raider I appreciate everyone has to start somewhere and am not even judging people based upon meters as mechanics are far more important but I seriously doubt that you learn more from lfr in its current state than any video you can watch.

I do appreciate blizzards intention but they have to wake up and realize what lfr currently is for the majority of the community and not rose tint the experience. Sometimes it is painless but many times it is a horrible mess and so long as it can be cleared with a small portion of the group trying people will not learn those encounters, will not learn basic mechanics and will not help with any development of new players into content beyond.

Please blizzard accept what LFR actually is like and put some thought into a different approach.

I just wish they'd nerf Kil'jaeden already

[Zeek Daniels]

I really dont like how long it takes for people to learn mechanics these days. I still see ppl die on goroth or run to the spires with the big circle under them or try and run as far away from him when they have the giant arrow pointing at them. Its like people dont care about how they get the loot as long as they get loot. People dont seem to realise you could get all your loot in 1.5-2hrs per toon if you just learned the mechanics. Instead what you do is hop from group to group wiping in each of them in spend the better part of a week to just kill 5 or so bosses. Learn the dumb mechanics and stop dieing to stupid shit like trying to solo soak the beam on Sisters without an immunity.

[Jademist]

If you don't like LFR just don't do it? I don't know why it bothers people like you so much.

[Seranthor]

"As mentioned in the last developer Q&A, our philosophy toward Raid Finder in Legion has been to reduce the overall number of mechanics, but keep one or two important ones that players will need to react to in order to succeed"

I really don't get it and wonder if it is different on US realms but the experience on EU realms is always a the same.

A couple of people will follow tactics and essentially prop up the rest. Some will do decent dps or healing but ultimately will just tunnel and then there will be those that afk or just don't do even a minimum level.

No amount of work or though as intended by blizzard above will actually change this as we will continue to complete lfr through a combination of the players following tactics propping others up and stacks of determination.

If Blizzard generally want it engaging and making players have to wake up or learn the tactics through lfr they would be better placed to make it a single player experience like scenario where the player doesnt then have a choice but to learn.

As a raider I appreciate everyone has to start somewhere and am not even judging people based upon meters as mechanics are far more important but I seriously doubt that you learn more from lfr in its current state than any video you can watch.

I do appreciate blizzards intention but they have to wake up and realize what lfr currently is for the majority of the community and not rose tint the experience. Sometimes it is painless but many times it is a horrible mess and so long as it can be cleared with a small portion of the group trying people will not learn those encounters, will not learn basic mechanics and will not help with any development of new players into content beyond.

Please blizzard accept what LFR actually is like and put some thought into a different approach.

So what is your solution?

[Low Hanging Fruit]

I don't read that they want LFR to be hard. I read more that they don't want people just AFKing though it.

[Polarthief]

LFR was too difficult in Dragon Soul/MoP, and this is coming from someone with a handful of Cutting Edge (end-of-tier Mythic) achievements. If you want actual difficulty, go to Normal+, otherwise, deal with it. The majority of LFR raiders don't want difficult encounters, they want sure things they can oneshot after their 10-20+ minute queue. Having LFRs end in failure was not a good model to use for Tourist/"Get in, get loot, get out" mode. There's also Archimonde if you want to fail in LFR as well.

I assume Blizz has metrics that tell them the easier LFR gets the more people play - I'm just not sure who. I can only think it's the under 12 crowd.

The very young/"I have a real life"/extremely casual and don't care to look up how to play correctly crowds, which sadly make up the majority of players in WoW to the point where Blizzard designs a ton of the game around them, which is dumb because they never did that in Vanilla/BC and yet everyone enjoyed the game thoroughly. Now with this "trying to appease everyone" model, it just feels sloppy, full of RNG issues, and ends up with way less happy people.

[kamuimac]

I don't read that they want LFR to be hard. I read more that they don't want people just AFKing though it.

and look how well its working on kj atm when people need 5-10 stacks of detemrination to kill it

[BiggestNoob]

"If you don't like it, just don't do it"

I love this idiotic non-argument. There's plenty of content in this game that's actually shit (pet battles, for instance) and you don't see people complaining about them because you actually CAN just ignore it completely with 0 downside. LFR is incentivized because it must be otherwise no group would be able to kill a boss that had any mechanics or did anything that could kill anyone even over minutes because without people in the group carrying almost everyone else, you'd need 20+ stacks of determination. LFR KJ is so utterly trivial the US 5000th normal-only guild if they could do LFR with their group, they'd kill it in what is speed-kill level time. Runes, AP, legendary chance, and TF, especially for alts, should not exist. It used to be mandatory to hit the valor cap. If the only thing you could get was shitty low level gear, the queues would be indefinite and the groups would likely not make much progress without having every ability literally do nothing.

LFR doesn't work, it's nobody's content. People who shouldn't be there feel compelled to do it, and they have to or the people who want to see the content but have no intention in literally any part of raiding would never be able to without watching YouTube videos, which is what they should be doing.

Oh, and Ghostcrawler was wrong. When you make hard content, people DO rise to the occasion. This is why so many people do mythic raids and high mythic+. Just because not everyone does it doesn't mean it didn't work, and you shouldn't have an obligation to trivialize everything so the people who have no real intention of even playing the game can be carried through something that can likely be soloed. The goal should be to put in different content that those people actually want to do, because there is no such thing as someone who plays this game for LFR in its current state.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

and look how well its working on kj atm when people need 5-10 stacks of detemrination to kill it

But is that hard? I am willing to bet it's mostly ignorance. If in a couple weeks it continues I might by into it but to kick and scream at the first pass or two isn't enough proof.

[Eggroll]

People care because a large number of people still run LFR just for the legendary chance/to build back luck protection. You can get a legendary a week if you clear every raid on LFR, normal, and heroic, and you do the nether disruptor every day it's up. As a supposed mythic raider you should be aware of this more than anybody, since legendaries are more important to you than everyone else. Perhaps you're lucky enough to already have every legendary for every spec of your main, or maybe you're just lying, i have no idea, but either way you should be less oblivious to this.

Yeah, and what has that got to do with anything? What the LFR folks do doesn't affect any "real" raider at all? So they increase their chance to get a lego, so what is it to you, really?

Personally, I like the change. I liked how LFR was in MoP. Even if it meant wiping on Durumu, or falling into the pit on Elegon, or peeps being too dumb to do nests on Jin'Kun. It was hell of a lot more fun than any dumb LFR in WoD.

[Tharkkun]

The reason people talk about this stuff is because Blizzard does.

They've recently stated that they no longer want LFR to be a Tourist Mode. They want to turn it into a mode with few mechanics that are extremely important to follow instead of the mode with almost all the same mechanics but none of them matter at all and can all be healed through and ignored.

So OP is saying that it's too late to save LFR and they really should just give up on their new design philosophy of trying to use it as a mode to teach players the basics of how to do mechanics.

What you're saying in your post actually completely supports OP. It's not supposed to be a mode that teaches people things. It has always been a mode that allows players to AFK and not give a shit. They're claiming they want to turn it into a mode that is basically supposed to force people to do mechanics now, albeit a very small number of them. OP is saying that's stupid and they really should just make something new because the people who actually run LFR are not going to want this shit.

I know I personally don't want to live in a world where LFR players have to soak Armageddon rain or they wipe. Fuck that noise. I don't want AFK people getting in the way of Maiden colors but Blizzard is trying to make LFR hard for people who run LFR as their only source of content by making mechanics matter.

I think you give way too much credit to the skills of the WoW player base. Chances are if you've found this website you're well above average already. So you'll probably pick up on mechanics after doing LFR a few times. That's not the case for everyone.

Some people have no idea what's going on in LFR, ever. My son-in-law is the prime example. Smart person, software developer, great at FPS games and absolutely sucks balls at WoW. He turns into a retard when mechanics appear in his face. That's how a *lot* of players are.

Then add in the fact that LFR is not a place to learn. No one teaches anything in LFR. You only yell at people who do something wrong without explaining why. For good reason because a chat window is probably the worst place ever to explain mechanics.

Blizzard doesn't prepare the user base for LFR and then wonders why they can't understand how to do the encounters.

- - - Updated - - -

and look how well its working on kj atm when people need 5-10 stacks of detemrination to kill it

They don't need 5-10 stacks to kill it. They need 5-10 stacks of repetition to understand it's never going to complete unless they soak armageddon. If they added the heroic mechanic of the knockbacks LFR KJ would never die.

[Sylvaeres]

Nobody is required, but usually people who mythic raid tend to take their character pretty seriously and want to maximize their dps/tanking/healing and so they want the best legendaries, so they'll do whatever it takes to get them. Not much science behind it, pretty simple. Here's my armory if you care so much. https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/ch...thuzad/destram

I don't mythic raid myself anymore, i stopped playing and took a break after first couple of weeks of nighthold and just came back recently. I have a server first title so i like to think i'm a decent caliber of player.

Depending on the server, yes. More than likely you're a stellar player. And running all the content was useful early on, but at this point it's overkill. Between my two mains, I have nearly every single legendary and I barely run anything besides TOS on normal and heroic, and my weekly 15. And those in top 500 world guilds are usually required to have multiple toons

[Katchii]

I use LFR because it's an easy queue to get into a raid. If they took away LFR and added a Queue for normal difficulty...would make no difference to me.

I'd honestly bet that a major reason more people do LFR than Normal+ is because LFR has a queue that lets you just hit a button and get in with a wait time and Normal+ requires much more effort than that.

My favorite thing to do on Tuesdays in WoW is to run off and do my Emissary quests while I queue for literally every raid and then once I get into one, I'm in for the night because the timer apparently still ticks while you're actually raiding. So once I kill the last boss for that wing, my next queue pops, and on and on until I've gone through everything I queued for. This wouldn't change for me if they moved the queue from LFR to Normal or added one to both or took LFR away and just did Normal.

[Hctaz]

I think you give way too much credit to the skills of the WoW player base. Chances are if you've found this website you're well above average already. So you'll probably pick up on mechanics after doing LFR a few times. That's not the case for everyone.

Some people have no idea what's going on in LFR, ever. My son-in-law is the prime example. Smart person, software developer, great at FPS games and absolutely sucks balls at WoW. He turns into a retard when mechanics appear in his face. That's how a *lot* of players are.

Then add in the fact that LFR is not a place to learn. No one teaches anything in LFR. You only yell at people who do something wrong without explaining why. For good reason because a chat window is probably the worst place ever to explain mechanics.

Blizzard doesn't prepare the user base for LFR and then wonders why they can't understand how to do the encounters.

I don't understand how the things you're saying correlate in any way to what I said.

Blizzard has said they want to make LFR harder by putting mechanics that you cannot avoid or heal through (like Durumu) but remove all the others. So like... KJ soaking Armageddon Rain but everything else tickles sort of thing. My point is that shit won't work in LFR. LFR is not there to teach anybody but they're trying to make it that way. I'm saying it's a bad idea and won't work. If they want to make people learn how to raid then they need to implement a different mode because this shit is stuck as tourist mode.

[oathy]

Posted in another thread. By no means all but there are some players expectations from LFR are so high its unreal.
what they are expecting from others only really happens in Guild runs when you know people really well and how they operate.
Vote to Kick is being abused big time in the last Raid that opened a week ago.

You hear some people going into such detail how other players are doing mistakes it actually makes you wonder
are they taking part or just looking at others to criticize. The item level snobbery is back with a Vengeance also
Blizz make the Raid min item level for a reason, Why some players then decide that's not good enough.

I'm not sure what its like in the US, But I'm finding a fair number of Raids very hostile to new players who are trying
for the 1st time. LFR is there to give everyone a chance but sadly a small minority of people seem to think its there
just so they can get the gear they want 1st time and no wipes etc.

[Raziella]

Maybe people should be bitching at Blizzard for the stuff that makes them feel "obligated" to do LFR - Legendary RNG, titanforging, the need for "bad luck protection" - instead of wanting to punish WoW players who are just trying to have fun in their own way.

[Hctaz]

Maybe people should be bitching at Blizzard for the stuff that makes them feel "obligated" to do LFR - Legendary RNG, titanforging, the need for "bad luck protection" - instead of wanting to punish WoW players who are just trying to have fun in their own way.

Do any of you read?

OP NEVER once stated he wanted to get rid of LFR. His post was quoting what Blizzard said about wanting to make LFR not just a tourist mode. He then said that it was a bad idea because nobody does LFR to learn how to play the game. LFR will lose the audience that currently does it if they make it harder. He said they need to implement a mode that teaches people how to raid that is not LFR because LFR has been a tourist mode for so long that changing it now would get rid of people. He's saying that Blizzard needs to give up on making LFR hard.

Please read.

[Raziella]

Do any of you read?

OP NEVER once stated he wanted to get rid of LFR. His post was quoting what Blizzard said about wanting to make LFR not just a tourist mode. He then said that it was a bad idea because nobody does LFR to learn how to play the game. LFR will lose the audience that currently does it if they make it harder. He said they need to implement a mode that teaches people how to raid that is not LFR because LFR has been a tourist mode for so long that changing it now would get rid of people. He's saying that Blizzard needs to give up on making LFR hard.

Please read.

Sorry, the title "just give up on LFR" and all the subsequent posts about it ruining the game seemed to really indicate otherwise... But, maybe it just wasn't phrased well.

I do agree making LFR harder will never accomplish making people better raiders, and I don't think the mode SHOULD be looked at in that manner. It's not a training guide for organized raiding, it's something to give those of us that don't have time to join a guild anymore (or never wanted to in the first place) something to do, especially since the story scenes are in those raids.

As for there being some mode to teach people to raid... imo, that "mode" should be other players. When things like LFR and other matchmaking systems are brought up, people inevitably complain about how they killed the social aspect of the game. So then why aren't we looking to the community to "train" players?
Obviously some noob isn't going to join a progression guild, but there's becoming a real dearth of guilds that will take new players on and help them learn, and even in rando pugs that won't get past 1-2 bosses, people are looking for crazy ilvls and achievements for already completing the raid. And that's stood up for all the time.

Are the people who complain about LFR ruining the game willing to take on the task of helping others cross that barrier to raiding? Or are they the ones running LFR anyways, and acting like elitists to all the casuals?

[Hctaz]

Sorry, the title "just give up on LFR" and all the subsequent posts about it ruining the game seemed to really indicate otherwise... But, maybe it just wasn't phrased well.

That's fine. You're not the only person. I mean it looks like you've read through the thread a little so you see all of the people who didn't read the OP. The title is a little bit misleading, but I think the point was to be short and sweet. It's more like "Blizzard, just give up on changing LFR" or "Blizzard wants to make LFR harder: Bad idea" or something... those all sound like shit, you see? lol