Why the American Left failed, and what can we learn from it.

[Deleted]

But are you not forcing your opinions on them? Have we not had a few examples of that already in our history where that created more long term problems? Forced conversations are rarely genuine. I am all for education and helping people along. But not if it’s going against their will. That tends to lead to cultural wars.

It's the history of humankind in a nutshell, yes: get in line or get wrecked.
I'm sure you've noticed we're doing ok-ish so far.

But you only asked why are you forcing your PoV.
If you are questioning your strategies, you're still the higher power. You can choose to be lenient or merciless. Their will is not unbreakable, nor is it unable to be molded. Culture wars will happen either way: we kinda like them, as they make it appear as if our achievements are earned.

[toxicrusader]

If only the volume of votes mattered.

Democracy at it's best.

Christ, you Americans and your bloody Left & Right nonsense....

Trust me man, not only America suffers from this disease. My country too is blinded by the Left vs Right argument, they can only see politics as a football game, there's the red team and the blue team, and it's the World Cup Finals, one must win.

[Kapadons]

I said it when it happened in 16 and I still think it's so ; as a conservative voter, the worst thing that could have happened to the political right in Federal elections was winning in 2016. Suffering a crushing defeat would have served as a spring board to drag them into the current age and leave behind values no longer in line with society. Instead, they won, and felt they were legitimized by it so the bullshit rhetoric hit level 9000.

They are already suffering blowback from Trump winning and will likely lose their ass in 2018. The longtem health of the party is arguably the worst its ever been.

[fengosa]

I think it's a fallacy to say that the left has abandoned the working class in favor of social issues. Clinton and Obama's economies have been arguably better than both of the Bush presidencies. The democrats are also stronger on issue like health care and minimum wage although Republican have arguably marketed their arguments better.

[scmpoe]

Left wing socially means treat everyone equally. Not favor 1 group over another.

Keep telling yourself that. Left wing is all about equality of outcome, and equality of outcome does not treat everyone equally in a capitalistic society. Policies such as gender quotas and affirmative action are the opposite of treating people equally.

Last time checked treating individuals differently based on gender and skin color is the definition of racism/sexism. No matter which race/gender is involved.

Instead, a current day minority child, no matter how well off, no matter that they weren't alive or a victim of actual racist/sexist laws that existed 60+ years ago (bonus points if black or female) should be given all manner of advantages over white children, no matter their situation, because dead people who also had white skin did bad things.

Ironically this left wing desire for equality of outcome goes out the window when a minority group is the one dominating, for example in sports like the NBA/NFL, professions such as nursing/teaching, etc.

[Wyrt]

Keep telling yourself that. Equality of outcome is not treating everyone equally in a capitalistic society. Policies such as gender quotas and affirmative action is not treating everyone equally considering its 2017, not 1950.

Last time checked treating individuals differently based on gender and skin color was considered racist/sexist. No matter which race/gender is involved.

Instead, a current day minority child, no matter how well off, no matter that they weren't alive or a victim of actual racist/sexist laws that existed 60+ years ago (bonus points if black or female) should be given all manner of advantages over white children, no matter their situation, because dead people who also had white skin did bad things.

Then tell me why California, the supposed leftist hell hole, has banned affirmative action?

[bewbew]

I think it's a fallacy to say that the left has abandoned the working class in favor of social issues. Clinton and Obama's economies have been arguably better than both of the Bush presidencies. The democrats are also stronger on issue like health care and minimum wage although Republican have arguably marketed their arguments better.

Health care and Minimum Wage are bad.

Taking more tax payer money to do these is not "being in favor of the working class". What the working class truly needs is their money, in their pocket, so they can decide how to take care of their own health and safety instead of relying on bureoucrats and public servants who don't even really care. This money ends up in the pockets of Politicians and their ilk, anyway, and not in the things they "promote"...and even if the money did end where it should, why even have the middle man (the politicians)?

My mother once had a very serious accident and called an ambulance. She had an open fracture on her arm after being hit by a bus as she fell from ther bicicle. Since we pay the highest taxes in almost all the world, most people can't afford Health Care so we have the Public Health Care (SUS).

The ambulance never even came. Not even being late; they just left her on the street for hours on end. It was only when the Military Police (PM) came that they drove her to the emergency.

Having to rely on public health care means you're probably gonna die in the waiting line.

[Ivanstone]

Pretty sure the rubbish about white privilege is the left trying to shame you for the color of your skin. New age racism.

Also affirmative action trying to give an upper hand to minorities purely due to their skin color, which is also racism in a politically correct way.

Except AA is not what you think it is. It might work for white women.

If AA worked as you think it does then why do black people have nearly double the unemployment of white people regardless of education level.

Seems to me AA is there but it only exists for white people.

People crow about AA at the college level when it supposedly supports minorities but are curiously silent on legacy admissions? I wonder who benefits the most from legacy admissions?

[Blur4stuff]

One of biggest flaws with the thinking here is what actual republican voters want. They like socialism, for example, if you don't call it that or attach it to a democrat. They've been heavily brainwashed over the years to automatically hate certain terms and groups of people.

In fact, you already have proof of this in the biggest possible way: they voted for Trump. He essentially promised single payer healthcare during the campaign. It was a bullshit lie, obviously, but republicans sure did love hearing it.

[scmpoe]

Then tell me why California, the supposed leftist hell hole, has banned affirmative action?

Let me know when they ban Google from having gender quotas and 'no white males allowed' career programs. Just another form of AA.

AA is one specific program example, and it still exists and has leftist support in most states. Cali still supports plenty of other 'minority only' programs and benefits.

[Elegiac]

Let me know when they ban Google from having gender quotas and 'no white males allowed' career programs. Just another form of AA.

AA is one specific program example, and it still exists and has leftist support in most states.

Cali still has all sorts of 'black only', 'women only', 'anyone except white males' scholarships, education/career programs, quotas, etc, in order to help them succeed, no matter their situation, all of which are forbidden to whites, no matter their situation.

I thought right wingers hated public assistance. Why would they care if they don't receive any?

[Wyrt]

Let me know when they ban Google from having gender quotas and 'no white males allowed' career programs. Just another form of AA.

AA is one specific program example, and it still exists and has leftist support in most states.

Cali still has all sorts of 'black only', 'women only', 'essentially anyone except white males' scholarships, education/career programs, quotas, etc, in order to help them succeed, no matter their situation, all of which are forbidden to whites, no matter their situation.

If that's true then why haven't Google been sued? Because discrimination based on gender is illegal in California. Seems like it'd be an easy suit if there was proof and likely a good payout.

[Mittens]

The reason Trump won #5372 takes are boring.

[kneehidude]

Hence why retraining was such a big part of Hillary's platform.

Must have missed that part. The only thing I got from Hillary's platform was "lets elect the first female president" and "trust me, I'm not as evil as people say I am!"

[Mittens]

There are some very salient points, particularly about how it is difficult for progressive parties of any stripe to reconcile traditional working class votes with socially progressive ideologies; see the Australian Labor Party. But it's not an impossible thing, it just requires a certain knack at political marketing which the Democrats clearly do not have.

But blaming "the left" for leaving American workers behind? No. The Democrats have consistently espoused policies beneficial to the working class in the form of higher wages, union protections, and retraining initiatives. The problem is that the rest of society, particularly the economy, has moved past the age of where low-tech manufacturing is a profitable sector much less a viable career path; the future is in the service and technology industries, and the Democrats recognise that. Hence why retraining was such a big part of Hillary's platform.

Aforementioned workers, though, don't want that. They don't want service jobs, or retraining assistance, or to have to move to where the jobs are. They want to remain in their small town and be able to rock up to a factory earning 40,000 a year with benefits, with no prior experience or training.

What does a rational politician forwarding workable policies have to offer such people?

It doesn't help that cities are plagued by NIMBYs and rent control advocates.

[scmpoe]

Except AA is not what you think it is. It might work for white women.

If AA worked as you think it does then why do black people have nearly double the unemployment of white people regardless of education level.

Seems to me AA is there but it only exists for white people.

People crow about AA at the college level when it supposedly supports minorities but are curiously silent on legacy admissions? I wonder who benefits the most from legacy admissions?

AA exists for both race and gender, and historically has probably benefited white women the most.
And the idea that women, especially white women, should have AA in 2017 is even more laughable than the idea that minority races should have it.

[Elegiac]

It doesn't help that cities are plagued by NIMBYs and rent control advocates.

Your point being what?

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Must have missed that part. The only thing I got from Hillary's platform was "lets elect the first female president" and "trust me, I'm not as evil as people say I am!"

I.e. "I didn't read Hillary's platform."

We're fully aware.

[Moralgy]

One of biggest flaws with the thinking here is what actual republican voters want. They like socialism, for example, if you don't call it that or attach it to a democrat. They've been heavily brainwashed over the years to automatically hate certain terms and groups of people.

In fact, you already have proof of this in the biggest possible way: they voted for Trump. He essentially promised single payer healthcare during the campaign. It was a bullshit lie, obviously, but republicans sure did love hearing it.

It is surprising how many republicans seemingly hate liburals but love liberal policies such as single payer healthcare, reasonable gun laws such as mental health checks on buying a gun, or even just lgbt rights. I have no idea how it has got to the point that libural and democrat became the enemy to so many that actually end up supporting those ideas more than the republican and conservative side.

[Mormolyce]

Essentially the internet has become infested with extremists seeking to radicalise the gullible, leading to a surge in the fringe right wing, nationalists, fascists, neo-Nazis, white supremacists etc.

I mean just look at this forum. And this is for VIDEO GAMES.

It could have been summed up as "people care far less about social issues when they're concerned about food on their plate."

And yet US unemployment was at its lowest point since the GFC when Trump began his election campaign.

It's a giant myth. Economics didn't motivate it.

[Mittens]

Wonder if it's possible for the US to stray away from this stupid dominating Two Party system... the last election had two incredibly poor candidates to choose from...

I take our party system over whatever the fuck they have in Australia in which as some sort of sick compromise a major party considers gay mariage as something optional.

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Your point being what?

- - - Updated - - -



I.e. "I didn't read Hillary's platform."

We're fully aware.

Nothing, I'm just expanding on the point.