Can someone explain how a non-authoritarian left is possible?

[Deleted]

Communism in its strict sense is about as non-authoritarian as you get since it's a stateless and fully egalitarian society.

How is it non authoritarian? Cause say if you decide to be selfish? In communism the collective is gonna ... correct it and take your stuff away, no? Otherwise it's not communism. This is the very definition of authoritarianism. Meaning no individual rights. Greater good > you and all that.

[Elegiac]

How is it non authoritarian? Cause say if you decide to be selfish? In communism the collective is gonna ... correct it and take your stuff away, no? Otherwise it's not communism. This is the very definition of authoritarianism. Meaning no individual rights. Greater good > you and all that.

Authoritarianism requires a state, communism is stateless by definition and cannot be authoritarian.

Whether or not it is a feasible ideology is a different point of discussion. It is assumed under a communist system people's contributions would be voluntary.

[Gestopft]

But thats what I dont get. The left is authoritarian as it wants to force other entities to work for "the greater good", so in your example, why should corporations be forced to do anything for "others"?

Because:
1) Corporations don't have rights in the same sense that people do. For a left-libertarian, it's the rights of individuals, not corporations, that matter
2) There's a difference between freedom and opportunity. You can have all the freedom in the world, but without opportunity it means little
3) Corporations and individuals often have opposing goals. By protecting individuals from corporate abuses, you increase opportunity, and by extension, the ability for one to enjoy their freedoms

[Deleted]

Because:
1) Corporations don't have rights in the same sense that people do. For a left-libertarian, it's the rights of individuals, not corporations, that matter
2) There's a difference between freedom and opportunity. You can have all the freedom in the world, but without opportunity it means little
3) Corporations and individuals often have opposing goals. By protecting individuals from corporate abuses, you increase opportunity, and by extension, the ability for one to enjoy their freedoms

Why dont they though? Corporations are made of people and these people have rights. Also corporations rights are rights under the law. No one says they are actually people but

1) Do corporations have the right to free speech?
2) Do they have the right to own property
3) Do they have the right to compete on a fair market.

Things like that. Of course they should have these rights because corporations are made out of people. It would be silly if constitutional rights wouldnt apply to them.

As for opportunity, can you name a single occasion (that wasnt deemed a criminal offense, such as slavery etc) where this doesnt apply in the US?

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Authoritarianism requires a state, communism is stateless by definition and cannot be authoritarian.

Whether or not it is a feasible ideology is a different point of discussion. It is assumed under a communist system people's contributions would be voluntary.

So you're saying communism is impossible because in reality most people would not work for free?

[Elegiac]

So you're saying communism is impossible because in reality most people would not work for free?

Above a certain population density, yes.

[Deleted]

Above a certain population density, yes.

Ok but what about real non authoritarian left? Guess we ruled out communism with that one, anarchy obviously doesn't work cause no one wants Fallout or Mad Max so is there a version of it thats actually.. .realistic?

[Elegiac]

Ok but what about real non authoritarian left? Guess we ruled out communism with that one, anarchy obviously doesn't work cause no one wants Fallout or Mad Max so is there a version of it thats actually.. .realistic?

No more than a version of right wing non-authoritarian, no.

Funnily enough, humans don't tend to do very well when left entirely to their own devices.

[Deleted]

But how does it work exactly? Like how can you have left wing anything without being authoritarian?

The way scandinavian 'ultimate' left came to existence. You don't do politics, you educate ordinary people. Or, if you have to, you gain hold of education departments in your country to teach young people about what true left is about. They will do politics later, not you.

Scandinavian countries built 'leftist' nation from bottom up, but the rest of the world seeing their success tried to replicate it and build themselves from top to the bottom through forced political means, which obviously can't work as true left focuses on bottom first and foremost.

[Endus]

Ok but what about real non authoritarian left? Guess we ruled out communism with that one, anarchy obviously doesn't work cause no one wants Fallout or Mad Max so is there a version of it thats actually.. .realistic?

Democratic socialism. Liberal market socialism. A whole range of left-wing libertarianism. As noted, pure communism. And so forth.

All you're doing is demonstrating that you don't understand the left-right axis, and confuse it for the authoritarian/libertarian one.

Most developed countries tend to swing between left-libertarian and right-authoritarian as the rough axis their politics falls on. There's a few outliers (Stalin/Mao being left-authoritarian), but left-wing views in the developed world are far more likely to be anti-authoritarian than authoritarian.

[Deleted]

The way scandinavian 'ultimate' left came to existence. You don't do politics, you educate ordinary people. Or, if you have to, you gain hold of education departments in your country to teach young people about what true left is about. They will do politics later, not you.

Scandinavian countries built 'leftist' nation from bottom up, but the rest of the world seeing their success tried to replicate it and build themselves from top to the bottom through forced political means, which obviously can't work as true left focuses on bottom first and foremost.

Well Scandinavia is a broad term. Norway has oil so they can afford it. Sweden is a failure.. no offense but it is for several reasons.. it has fallen from the top 3 into around 15th, crazy crime and rape statistics, ghettos, very limited freedom of speech and so on . Finland has no military and very uniform and small population. They only have 5 million which is about the size of a larger American city.

[Endus]

Well Scandinavia is a broad term. Norway has oil so they can afford it. Sweden is a failure.. no offense but it is for several reasons.. it has fallen from the top 3 into around 15th, crazy crime and rape statistics, ghettos, very limited freedom of speech and so on . Finland has no military and very uniform and small population. They only have 5 million which is about the size of a larger American city.

Sweden is in no respect a "failure". Their most crime-ridden cities are still better-off in that respect than most "good" cities in the USA. And most of the rest of what you claimed regarding Sweden is just flat-out not true.

[Deleted]

Democratic socialism. Liberal market socialism. A whole range of left-wing libertarianism. As noted, pure communism. And so forth.

All you're doing is demonstrating that you don't understand the left-right axis, and confuse it for the authoritarian/libertarian one.

Most developed countries tend to swing between left-libertarian and right-authoritarian as the rough axis their politics falls on. There's a few outliers (Stalin/Mao being left-authoritarian), but left-wing views in the developed world are far more likely to be anti-authoritarian than authoritarian.

Democratic doesnt mean non authoritarian. Say 99% of the population is bible thumpers, Would you consider it non authoritarian if they made bible class mandatory and hanged you for being gay? I don't think so. Just because he majority wants something doesn't mean it's liberal and non authoritarian.

[Endus]

Democratic doesnt mean non authoritarian.

This is relevant how? Democratic socialism is specifically a non-authoritarian viewpoint; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_socialism

If you don't understand a term, just Google it and get some understanding before posting stuff that's this blatantly wrong.

[Deleted]

Sweden is in no respect a "failure". Their most crime-ridden cities are still better-off in that respect than most "good" cities in the USA. And most of the rest of what you claimed regarding Sweden is just flat-out not true.

Not true.. theres a reason why most media networks wont allow their reporters to go there.

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This is relevant how? Democratic socialism is specifically a non-authoritarian viewpoint; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_socialism

If you don't understand a term, just Google it and get some understanding before posting stuff that's this blatantly wrong.

Don't you understand that democratic means? It's the rule of the majority.. or the mob rule. It doesn't make it non authoritarian in any way. In fact.. democratic socialism is basically the same as socialism. There is almost no difference.

[Deleted]

Ok Im a far right libertarian. I believe in personal freedoms and rights so I don't really understand the left at all. Can someone tell me how it's even possible to be left and not infringe on other peoples rights?

It called social democracy it very populary in Nord Europa. Now here we enjoy all the rights you can think of, except the violence you exercising in self defence must be proportionally to the threat.

[Endus]

Not true.. theres a reason why most media networks wont allow their reporters to go there.

http://www.government.se/articles/20...ime-in-sweden/
http://sverigesradio.se/sida/artikel...rtikel=6630452
https://www.euractiv.com/section/lan...zone-in-malmo/
http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/a/...us-in-4-charts

Just flat-out false. You're repeating propaganda from disinformation websites and biased bloggers, and ignoring the actual facts.

[Breccia]

I think after five pages of the OP asking "can you explain?" then responding to damn near every single post by contradicting it or ignoring it, we can call this one spent.

@Cherise is not interested in having his question answered. Give up. Move on.

[Endus]

Don't you understand that democratic means? It's the rule of the majority.. or the mob rule.

Again, far too narrow and not actually descriptive of any extant democracies on the planet.

It doesn't make it non authoritarian in any way. In fact.. democratic socialism is basically the same as socialism. There is almost no difference.

Well, it is socialism. But if you're thinking of authoritarian Stalinism when you say "socialism", then the problem is yet again that you do not understand what basic political terms actually mean outside of your disinformation bubble;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism

[Deleted]

http://www.government.se/articles/20...ime-in-sweden/
http://sverigesradio.se/sida/artikel...rtikel=6630452
https://www.euractiv.com/section/lan...zone-in-malmo/
http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/a/...us-in-4-charts

Just flat-out false. You're repeating propaganda from disinformation websites and biased bloggers, and ignoring the actual facts.

Well you're a mod here arent you, are you gonna infract me if I post a large compilation of video evidence proving you wrong?

[Endus]

Well you're a mod here arent you, are you gonna infract me if I post a large compilation of video evidence proving you wrong?

Anecdotal video evidence isn't going to contradict the clear government statistics I just connected you with.

At this point, you're jamming your fingers in your ears and refusing to listen to anything people say, and making it very clear you aren't asking legitimate questions, but are just baiting the forum. So I'm going to stop feeding you.