Protesters destroy confederate monument in Durham

[D3thray]

I would disagree. We really shouldn't have Confederate "heroes" celebrated with statues in cities. They were fighting for slavery, and slavery is not so good. So let's get rid of the celebrations, and remember them in history books and @Darkeon's museum.

Ultimately it's not your call or mine either unless we actually live in these towns. I disagree with the notion that these monuments are inherently about slavery. As I've said there's much more shades of grey to the issue. I would perhaps rather see a national monument for posterity. What these individual towns want to do is up to them.

[cubby]

I appreciate the attempt to find solutions.

Hey, I'm all about solutions. Even when I'm being an asshole. I call them assolutions. But seriously, it is always good to find some common ground. I could see some eternally offended peeps not liking a confederate museum. I think I'd be ok with it - especially your point about Robert E. Lee and how his entire persona was NOT just about leading the confederate army. Knowledge like that is essential - in about a thousand different categories (or themes).

[Alexeht]

Not to diminish the millions of deaths in the gulags, but sadly this has occurred before and after. What the Nazis stand out for, and that's what a lot of people don't get, is the industrialized destruction of a people, that has never been done before, and gladly never since.

I'm quite sure 'industrialized destruction of a people' is still going on, but now it is in china and it is only a drawback of production of cheap stuff. Besides what is the difference between genocide and genocide?

[Santti]

The statues were built to be revered not to reflect on what was wrong with history. It's like if Auschwitz was standing as a monument to the brave guards.

As I said, the message is irrelevant. I also said I understand removing them, just not breaking them. They are significant pieces of human history, and would be best served in a museum.

[Tijuana]

I'm quite sure you understand the differences between trying to create racial inequality versus trying to alleviate it.

It seems to me that there are only two reasons to bring up the Democrats' KKK soiled past to people that are already aware of it:
1) Needlessly disparage Democrats for something that the vast majority of today's party neither participated in or support, or
2) Deflect attention away from the reality of the racist fringe that infects the right wing today.

Or is there a better reason?



Sorry: by "Dixiecrats" I was referring not to the specific politicians, but the Southern white voter base that switched parties en masse in the 60's

The reason is to point out that bigotry is not on the political spectrum. Racism has nothing to do with Conservatism. It's nothing more than a smear, to say that because bad people support a party, that the party must support bad people. It's guilt by association, for people the right isn't even associating with.

[BuckSparkles]

Hey, I'm all about solutions. Even when I'm being an asshole. I call them assolutions. But seriously, it is always good to find some common ground. I could seem some eternally offended peeps not liking a confederate museum. I think I'd be ok with it - especially your point about Robert E. Lee and how his entire persona was NOT just about leading the confederate army. Knowledge like that is essential - in about a thousand different categories (or themes).

I mean when you approach situations as you just did its much easier to think clearly and be willing to work with the other side.

\Kudos for being civil.

[Themius]

As I said, the message is irrelevant. I also said I understand removing them, just not breaking them. They are significant pieces of human history, and would be best served in a museum.

You realize the majority of these statues were put up after the war by white supremacists groups.

It is quite literally as if the Nazi's after ww2 in the 60s built a monument to Hitler in a public place in Germany.

Hitler is probably one of the most significant pieces of history that doesn't mean we need statues of him put up by Nazi's though. Just like it doesn't mean we need statues of confederates put up by the KKK and white supremacists groups.

[Pannonian]

Well, the german people where mistreated just as bad after the war by the victorious allies and soviets. 12 million germans that where expelled from the former eastern german territories, where almost 3 million died or where killed. Not to mention all the rapes and murders these communist ape creatures commited.

No, that's history revisionism. While the situation of the exiled was despicable and unfair, you cannot compare them to the victims in the KZ. They were mistreated, and they were treated bad, but to claim they were treated just as bad as jews in the KZs is fucking nazi-apologism.

[Tijuana]

So you're saying that Richard Nixon didn't try to court segregationists and Klansmen with his Southern Strategy in 1968? Are you really trying to argue that Reagan didn't court those same people when he went down to the site of Mississippi Burning to start his presidential run? Are you trying to say that Trump didn't go after those same people when he said that Mexicans are rapists and murderers, and that BLM is a terrorist group?

Think about this; Why would the KKK and Nazis support Barack Obama as president of the United States? You really think that racists support a black person leading the country?

Let me ask you this: Why is pandering to whites via the Southern strategy ANY different than pandering to minorities? Both instances are wrong; both are using race instead of ideas to win elections.

Obviously no racist would support Obama. What are you on about?

- - - Updated - - -

Breitbart and him failing to strongly denounce supremacists prior to yesterday. Took an innocent person being killed for him to finally say something.

I take you don't know who Andrew Breitbart was? Hint: He was Jewish.

Why are Democrats OBSESSED with making everyone denounce things? Can't we just assume people are not racists, until they do or say racist shit? It's like self serving virtue signaling on steroids where they make OTHERS signal their virtue, instead of doing it themselves.

[Pannonian]

I'm quite sure 'industrialized destruction of a people' is still going on, but now it is in china and it is only a drawback of production of cheap stuff. Besides what is the difference between genocide and genocide?

It's the difference between not caring for people and working them to death, which is sadly something very common in human history

and

People arrive at 10.20 at the camp, are killed by 11.30 and their corpses are burnt before 12.10

That just happened once.

If you don't see why this stands out in human history, i cannot explain any more.

[Santti]

You realize the majority of these statues were put up after the war by white supremacists groups.

In that case, it's a little different, yes.

[flam]

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." -George Santayana

[Grapemask]

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." -George Santayana

There's probably a difference between remembering and celebrating the past, though.

[Dug]

I take you don't know who Andrew Breitbart was? Hint: He was Jewish.

Why are Democrats OBSESSED with making everyone denounce things? Can't we just assume people are not racists, until they do or say racist shit? It's like self serving virtue signaling on steroids where they make OTHERS signal their virtue, instead of doing it themselves.

And yet Breitbart is what it is. This doesn't have to be hard man you know why supremacist hate groups flock to these types of websites, you know why they flock to the Republican party. Whether you yourself or any other random no name republican is racist is not my concern. I'm simply telling you why your party is perceived as racist when people like Bannon get a place in the white house and the president almost looks like he's in pain when he has to call out hate groups (white) by name.

[Raptor With a Saber]

I see both sides point of view but again, it's not justification and they don't even need this to continue doing what they do. They'll find some other excuse like the myriad conspiracy theories and invented sleights and grievances they've been pushing for years.

Then you get the point im making. That no matter what both sides will have it but when something real like this happens thats even worse.

[Shadowmelded]

Then you get the point im making. That no matter what both sides will have it but when something real like this happens thats even worse.

Yeah, but just because they look for an excuse, doesn't mean we have to be silent about it. Push back against it and let them know that even if a statue is removed, it doesn't justify the violence they seek.

[cubby]

I mean when you approach situations as you just did its much easier to think clearly and be willing to work with the other side.

\Kudos for being civil.

I could not agree more. And kudos to you as well.

[BuckSparkles]

I could not agree more. And kudos to you as well.

I mean honestly, the solution of putting some of these monuments in museums is a good compromise. No longer out in the public, and history folks (or perhaps less savory folk) can still enjoy them elsewhere.

[Themius]

I could not agree more. And kudos to you as well.

The issue is this.

A confederate museum can be done two ways... a cautionary tale or a celebration of pride in confederates...the latter I can't see being anything but silly.

[Orbitus]

Yet REAL Nazis were Socialist. What doesn't compute?

Probably the fact that they were FASCIST not socialist? Just because they have socialist in their name, doesn't mean they were socialist. Otherwise North Korea, aka the Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea would be a Democracy or Republic and they are neither.