Russia: Americans Now Support Containment over Cooperation

[Haven]

How about you lower the deflector shield for once and answer a clear question with a clear answer?

Okay. How can I not see that Russia is actually doing those things? I dunno, presumption of innocence? Or that I have a hard time believing Russia is actually behind all evil perceived by West, mostly because I see zero fucking reason in doing anything of that? Regarding the "bullying of poor poor Russia", yes, it is bullying. Bulllying that is an example of how normal international relationships work, from the most exemplary country. We merely follow, but I, as many of my compatriots for that mattter, think that Putin is way too soft and patient. Way back in 2014 we should've intervened and supported stability in Ukraine with our army in Kiev. For the plane that was hit by Turkey, we should've actively supported a coup against Erdogan and installed our people in Turkey. Not to mention that we should arm North Korea and Iran with nuclear technology to create more centers of resistance.

[Crispin]

Okay. How can I not see that Russia is actually doing those things? I dunno, presumption of innocence? Or that I have a hard time believing Russia is actually behind all evil perceived by West, mostly because I see zero fucking reason in doing anything of that? Regarding the "bullying of poor poor Russia", yes, it is bullying. Bulllying that is an example of how normal international relationships work, from the most exemplary country. We merely follow, but I, as many of my compatriots for that mattter, think that Putin is way too soft and patient. Way back in 2014 we should've intervened and supported stability in Ukraine with our army in Kiev. For the plane that was hit by Turkey, we should've actively supported a coup against Erdogan and installed our people in Turkey. Not to mention that we should arm North Korea and Iran with nuclear technology to create more centers of resistance.

Again, you're exaggerating, noone is blaming Russia for all evil. But it's nice to see you support what would essentially start an actual war against Russia, performing a coup against a NATO country? lmfao.

[Shalcker]

Again, you're exaggerating, noone is blaming Russia for all evil.

You're exaggerating; there are certainly people who "blame Russia for all evil". There are even people claiming Russia is responsible for Charlottesville.

Like "Richard Spencer and His Kook-Right Ilk Are Agents of Russian Influence"

[Nadiru]

Russia will fill the niche of universal Satan for the West for decades, you're right about that. But not because of anything it did or will do. It's because of demand for the devil and because Russia, being large enought to be menacing, independent enough to be unpredictable, different enough to be hated and armed enough to not be easily crushed like Arab filler villains, fits the bill perfectly.

Russia is demonized precisely because of things it did and things it will do. Russia is not large enough to be menacing nor independent enough to be unpredictable at this point, your demographic decline and marriage with a bona fide rising power saw put to that. Just about the only thing you are is armed, but not armed enough to take anybody important in a fight. The extent of Russian power projection in Europe is Kiev. In the Middle East it's nowhere; you rely on Assad to project power.

[Crispin]

You're exaggerating; there are certainly people who "blame Russia for all evil". There are even people claiming Russia is responsible for Charlottesville.

Like "Richard Spencer and His Kook-Right Ilk Are Agents of Russian Influence"

All evil... hey are you blamed for the global warming? cancer? phedophiles? mass murderers? etc. etc. etc. If you claim that the West is blaming Russia for all evil, you're going to have to start linking some serious sources.

Linking 1 article which seems pretty far fetched isnt going to do it, there are few very specific Things Russia is blamed for, I wouldnt even call interfering in an election for evil.

The problem is that guy like Haven, and apparently you, are told that we blame you for everything that is evil, I could start linking Danish newssites that reports plenty of evil in this World, without mentioning Russia whatsoever, but you wouldnt care anyway would you? It's alot easier to exaggerate because ofcourse Russia isnt to blame for all evil, therefore you can easily dismiss the few things you are accused of.

[Haven]

Russia is demonized precisely because of things it did and things it will do.

You attitude shows: you say it will be demonized for things it will do, but you don't know what it will do. You demonize in advance.

Russia is not large enough to be menacing nor independent enough to be unpredictable at this point, your demographic decline and marriage with a bona fide rising power saw put to that.

Demographic? Since when does that count? If we talk about demographic decline, hell, I could just say we can wait a century and white Europeans will die out naturally. And you think Russia follows China? Really?

Just about the only thing you are is armed, but not armed enough to take anybody important in a fight.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...Strength_Index

The extent of Russian power projection in Europe is Kiev. In the Middle East it's nowhere; you rely on Assad to project power.

It's because we still bother with that little thing called legitimacy and formalities like UN instead of just bombing whatever we please.

[Deleted]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...Strength_Index

LOL what? Japan's little defence force is 4th? France lower? North Korea missing? That list makes no sense. In reality, North Korea is 4th.

[Shalcker]

All evil... hey are you blamed for the global warming? cancer? phedophiles? mass murderers? etc. etc. etc. If you claim that the West is blaming Russia for all evil, you're going to have to start linking some serious sources.

And if i find you article for each of them, would that convince you or you would just whip up more of "etc"?

Why exactly you cannot accept that some people do exist that think Russia has hand in every evil that matters to them? It's not "noone".

Obviously we're selecting for those people when we claim "We're unfairly persecuted!"

...and those guys who are knowledgeable and balanced (and that we actually can agree with) are invariably painted as "Putin's apologists".

Linking 1 article which seems pretty far fetched isnt going to do it, there are few very specific Things Russia is blamed for, I wouldnt even call interfering in an election for evil.

And we do not call accession of Crimea evil too; yet we're persecuted for it :P

The problem is that guy like Haven, and apparently you, are told that we blame you for everything that is evil, I could start linking Danish newssites that reports plenty of evil in this World, without mentioning Russia whatsoever, but you wouldnt care anyway would you? It's alot easier to exaggerate because ofcourse Russia isnt to blame for all evil, therefore you can easily dismiss the few things you are accused of.

You just shouldn't say "noone". Simple, just say "most people do not consider Russia source of all evil" and you'll find it much easier to agree with for Russians.

"Noone" is dismissal of problem that might or might not be exaggerated but definitely exists.

[Haven]

LOL what? Japan's little defence force is 4th? France lower? North Korea missing? That list makes no sense. In reality, North Korea is 4th.

IDK, here's another: http://www.globalfirepower.com/countries-listing.asp Russia is still second only to US.

[Crispin]

And if i find you article for each of them, would that convince you or you would just whip up more of "etc"?

Why exactly you cannot accept that some people do exist that think Russia has hand in every evil that matters to them? It's not "noone".

Obviously we're selecting for those people when we claim "We're unfairly persecuted!"

...and those guys who are knowledgeable and balanced (and that we actually can agree with) are invariably painted as "Putin's apologists".

And we do not call accession of Crimea evil too; yet we're persecuted for it :P

You just shouldn't say "noone". Simple, just say "most people do not consider Russia source of all evil" and you'll find it much easier to agree with for Russians.

"Noone" is dismissal of problem that might or might not be exaggerated but definitely exists.

Oh please do find articles of western media, not crazy sites, and prominent leaders, blame Russia for everything from the KKK, Nazi's, cancer "all evil", and I'll gladly agree that the Western leaders and MSM are way out of control. For your info this is the argument I was arguing against "Or that I have a hard time believing Russia is actually behind all evil perceived by West", are there people in the west who thinks that Russia is behind everything evil? How should I know, I'm sure you can find some, they're probably at the same institution as the people who think they're jesus, but that's not the point that was put forward. Either stick to the original argument or bugger off.

[Deleted]

Ukrainian coup was sponsored and orchestrated by USA

Its so hilarious then you self project Not how slow and clumsily USA reacted and with what lighting speed Russia reacted....

[Nadiru]

You attitude shows: you say it will be demonized for things it will do, but you don't know what it will do. You demonize in advance.

Demographic? Since when does that count? If we talk about demographic decline, hell, I could just say we can wait a century and white Europeans will die out naturally. And you think Russia follows China? Really?

It's because we still bother with that little thing called legitimacy and formalities like UN instead of just bombing whatever we please.

I demonize Russia for the bad things it does, and yes, I do so in advance because Russia has shown little willingness to stop doing bad things. Demographics count because, as it turns out, you need people to perform useful work and machinery cannot yet replace them. Western Europe is in worse demographic decline, but there are more non-Russians in Europe than Russians, by a long shot.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...Strength_Index

And if we lined up all the weapons Russia has and all the weapons Europe has, sure, you maybe win in a shooting match. But real life doesn't work that way, and you need specific systems and institutions to effectively project power. For all your pomp about the MSI and Russian, France still projects power further than Russia does - badly, to be sure, but still does. Even if you desire to cling to the index as ammunition, it hurts you too: The US is about as far ahead of Russia as you are ahead of France.

[Deleted]

The US is about as far ahead of Russia as you are ahead of France.

You are underestimating France, it could destroy the US and Russia at once (by nuking 200 US cities and 100 russian cities simultaneously).

[Haven]

Its so hilarious then you self project Not how slow and clumsily USA reacted and with what lighting speed Russia reacted....

Um, 5 billion dollars spent on "promoting democracy" in Ukraine? Bidens' gas business? McCain, Nuland, Brennan in Ukraine during the coup?

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I demonize Russia for the bad things it does, and yes, I do so in advance because Russia has shown little willingness to stop doing bad things. Demographics count because, as it turns out, you need people to perform useful work and machinery cannot yet replace them. Western Europe is in worse demographic decline, but there are more non-Russians in Europe than Russians, by a long shot.

More non-Russians in Europe than Russians? And? You imply that summary population of EU is bigger than Russian?

And if we lined up all the weapons Russia has and all the weapons Europe has, sure, you maybe win in a shooting match. But real life doesn't work that way, and you need specific systems and institutions to effectively project power. For all your pomp about the MSI and Russian, France still projects power further than Russia does - badly, to be sure, but still does. Even if you desire to cling to the index as ammunition, it hurts you too: The US is about as far ahead of Russia as you are ahead of France.

France what? Aaaaaahahahahahahaaaa France is a second fiddle of a second fiddle, it will never do anything except bend over and do what it's told, as always.

[Dentelan]

Russia doesn't want to be our friend. Putting aside the problem of becoming best buddies with a regime that's been known to kill or incarcerate journalists, political opponents and protesters, even if we ignore literally all of that, Russia does not want to be our friend.

Putin is truly faggot, i agree that. And in my opinion we must leave eastern ukraine but remain crimea. But. Are you guys living only in world after 2014 ? Russia dont want to be US/EU friend? Do you know anything about relationships between Russia and west after USSR collapse? How hard we tried to be friends/partners, and how much west was not giving a fuck about Russia's interests? Really. Ffs. Go learn history, we tried.

[Hound Archon]

Let's see some polls from the other side, shall we?

According to the most recent study:

- 59% Russians believe that Russian foreign policy must be aimed at ensuring peaceful and safe existence for its citizens
- 49% believe it must be aimed at restoring Russia's damaged public image/damaged authority
- 41% believe it must be aimed at protecting the local industry
- 27% believe it must be aimed at maintaining friendly relations with major powers
- 21% believe it must be aimed at fighting terrorism via cooperation with other countries
- 19% believe it must be aimed at curbing the US influence in the world
- 14% believe it must be aimed at increasing Russian influence in the world

Make of this what you will.

[Deleted]

France what? Aaaaaahahahahahahaaaa France is a second fiddle of a second fiddle, it will never do anything except bend over and do what it's told, as always.

LOL, it is others who bend over to France. France is the only viable military power in Europe.

[Haven]

LOL, it is others who bend over to France. France is the only viable military power in Europe.

Your info might be 210 years outdated. When was the last time France at least acted on its own and in its own interests, rather than bending the knee before Brussels, NATO, US, and Germany?

[Shalcker]

Your info might be 210 years outdated. When was the last time France at least acted on its own and in its own interests, rather than bending the knee before Brussels, NATO, US, and Germany?

They are actually pretty active in their "former" colonies in Africa.

And they did start that thing with Qaddafi, even if they had to call US to finish what they started.