Protesters destroy confederate monument in Durham

[Pannonian]

Well now we have neo-communists called antifa. And this is what worries me, people go to extremes like nazism and communism, instead try and work with democracy (which is also shit, but at least we have illusion of choice).

Wouldn't got this far. They are as much communists as the skinheads of the 80s were Nazis. They're both just deplorable thugs who would take any cause if it justifies their want for violence and destruction.

I wont dignify this behavior by thinking the have an actual thought process behind their shit that has to do with political and philosophical positions.

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Antifa exists since the 1920s, as organizations of left and right wingers that fought fascism in Europe.

The American "Antifa" is just a group of anarchists that is misusing the name.

To add to this. This is why talking about Antifa is a bit hard. I can fully support the original idea behind Antifa and what they did for a long time, but in recent years they've become a cesspool for vandalists and thugs, and i think they're actually harmful to their original cause.

[Deleted]

Irrelevant. The point is monuments have value to a certain portion of the population, so tearing them down and vandalizing them is a great way to piss people off.

I mean, you are not wrong. The other day I saw a left article basically saying if you have blonde hair you are racist by default.

Of course you did.

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Irrelevant. The point is monuments have value to a certain portion of the population, so tearing them down and vandalizing them is a great way to piss people off.

No, for violating the law. Committing a crime is unlawful you know? Or you rather live in a lawless society? You do not like a law or anything else, there is a lawful way to get it changed.

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Good. Hope they do.

So you would have been against law breakers in the 1950s fighting apartied in the USA?

[Pannonian]

Of course you did.

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So you would have been against law breakers in the 1950s fighting apartied in the USA?

I really hate to do this, but @BuckSparkles has a point here. I would agree that this action was somehow morally justifiable if there wasn't a law. So disobedience against unmoral law is something that could be discussed to any length, and i'd probably support it. But in this case, giving a nazi salute is already illegal. He should have called the police and this guy would have gotten his punishment. No need for vigilantism.

[Citizen T]

18 year olds at Gettysburg would have been born in 1844-45. So they would have been 80 in 1924

1924 was a very rough year in general. The Old Democratic Party's Convention that year is well known as the Klanbake where half the delegates, KKK members, were actively going against the other nominee for being catholic. It was the height of the KKK resurgence. The 2nd day in they crossed into New Jersey and had one of the largest cross burnings ever. After 16 days of madness they finally selected a nominee to get slaughtered up by Coolidge in the General Election.

There were veterans of the civil war from both sides that served younger than the age of 18. It was a different time, children were considered adult at much younger ages than today.

John Clem was the youngest known soldier. He became a drummer boy for the Union army at age 10 and officially enlisted at the age of 12. He retired as a Brigadier General in 1916.

[Deleted]

I really hate to do this, but @BuckSparkles has a point here. I would agree that this action was somehow morally justifiable if there wasn't a law. So disobedience against unmoral law is something that could be discussed to any length, and in most cases I'd support it. But in this case, giving a nazi salute is already illegal. He should have called the police and this guy would have gotten his punishment. No need for vigilantism.

Nazi salutes are illegal in the us?

[Pannonian]

Nazi salutes are illegal in the us?

Damn it, wrong thread, sorry. Thought i was in the one about Nazi salute in Dresden. Too many damn Nazis on this world!

[Grimbold21]

Even if you were to ignore the original meaning of a/the statue - which can be seen as controversial too - the issue is that these statues gain new and current meaning by being appropriated by groups which use them as symbols of their own ideological narrative, hence the contestation and likely forced removal.

Honestly, if a statue is so controversial to the point of causing this much offense, then i'd assume the best and most immediate solution would be to do what has been done in some African nations, remove them from the public sphere and house them in museums.

[Mittens]

Well I literally just learned that Lee would destroy his own statue.

[Flarelaine]

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." -George Santayana

Yet those who remember are condemned to watch as others repeat it...

[Clone]

A monument - which, at most, could be considered offensive by some - is hardly comparable to actual slavery. It does not pose an immediate danger to anyone or infringe on any personal rights, so there is no ground for committing a crime to get rid of it. This is nothing more than "We don't like it, let's destroy it!"

That is true. At the same time destroying the statue is not comparable to murder, pose any danger to anyone, or infringe on any personal rights. The act itself is also just offensive at most.

[Flarelaine]

Im not a huge fan of people tearing down any memorial without it being well thought out and done by authorities but oh well.

There are times when one needs to make a point.

[cubby]

Too late, Republicans have already done that.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/local...=.7e9855e70320

So they are basically rewriting history? Lovely. Gotta love the GOP and their anti-education ways.

[Flarelaine]

And? Context matters. I can salute people who betray unjust systems.

There's a dialogue in Shogun where Toranaga declares there is no excuse for rebelling against one's overlord and the English guy says "Except victory".

(Or something along those lines.)

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It's hilarious how many people still think the civil war was about slavery.

I know, right? Now if only they read the original declarations of secession, they would find out it was all about... oh, shit.

[Doctor Funkenstein]

1924 there still would be living Confederate soldiers around, they'd be in their 70-80's.

I don't think math works the way you think math works.

[Deleted]

Lee, Stonewall Jackson, Picket etc. were popular Generals and I always figured they were still seen as such in the US.

Interesting how they were revered in the post-war years by both the South and North yet now, a 150 years later, suddenly their statues have to go because some people feel upset.

[cubby]

I don't think math works the way you think math works.

Yeah, it does. If soldiers were 15 or so during the war, they'd be in their mid/late-70's in 1924. I'm not arguing his point, just the math.

1924-1860+15=79

[Furious Spoon]

They should however, do so legally. Mob mentality should never be praised.

It should be noted they didn't really have a legal means to do so, there was a law passed in 2015 which makwa it almost impossible to get them removed legally. System removed a way to do it legally, so they did it illegally.

[Deleted]

Lee, Stonewall Jackson, Picket etc. were popular Generals and I always figured they were still seen as such in the US.

Interesting how they were revered in the post-war years by both the South and North yet now, a 150 years later, suddenly their statues have to go because some people feel upset.

They fought to protect slavery. You're surprised people are upset by having statues celebrating them?

Or are you doing the alt right feigned surprise thing?

Many governments have been founded upon the principle of the subordination and serfdom of certain classes of the same race; such were and are in violation of the laws of nature. Our system commits no such violation of nature's laws. With us, all of the white race, however high or low, rich or poor, are equal in the eye of the law. Not so with the negro. Subordination is his place. He, by nature, or by the curse against Canaan, is fitted for that condition which he occupies in our system.

[Symphonic]

Now that the oppressive statue has been removed, racism is over!! Win win win!!!

[Eviscero]

if you do not learn from history then you are doomed to repeat it

Ohhhhhh, I see... the KKK members and the Neo-Nazis were trying to protect us from repeating our regrettable history! They want to preserve these statues to make sure everyone understands how horrible they were...

Maybe I misheard them shouting "The Jews will not replace us!" Maybe they were saying "The Jews still face prejudice!"