"Gogogo!!!", or "You pull, you tank"

[Cantheal]

It's common knowledge people do things as fast and as efficient possible. If you know beforehand you can't handle that, it literally takes 2 seconds to communicate this to the group. If you don't I'll assume you can handle it and pull in what I assume the group can handle.

Don't act like you don't know how fast a dungeon can be cleared at when you have done it dozens of times. Don't be a pussy, open your mouth and speak up if you know you will perform below the average. (it's nothing to be ashamed off, especially if you are a new player)

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It's a fact.

You could also take 2 seconds to tell the group you are going to pull as many and and much as you feel like at the start. If the DPS pulling used trix or MD or at bare minimum watched tank cd's and healer cd's that would be one thing but anyone who has tanked anything knows that is not the case most of the time.

And far as FACT,

while tanks can gear up faster due to not waiting on Q (cool I get one more run maybe two in a evening during the time I play), it certainly is not a FACT that is why I won't do as much as would is those doing exactly what you do/say/act like. I have fun just jumping in Q from time to time and would far more often if was not for behavior like yours. Ya most times no biggie but to put it on anyone other than the person doing that is just silly.

Why not at start just tell the grp for the tank to pick up what you pull for him, that is what you are doing so may as well let them know.

That is not even getting into if the person is learning or maybe working on a offspec or whatever it may be if he is spose to notify you what on earth makes you think the re is no need to notify them you are going to do what you feel like not the grp

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

Because we haven't had this conversation yet (this week):

• Good tank assesses his group within first couple of pulls and proceeds to pull as fast as they can reasonably handle it.
• Bad tanks pull too fast and blame healer for deaths, or too slow and power trip when others get impatient.
• Some bad tanks are future good tanks who are still learning.
• Good DPS recognize why tank is pulling as he does and do their best to support a smooth run.
• Bad DPS think they know more than they do and make things harder rather than easier.
• DPS and Healers can sometimes help by pulling IF they know what they're doing and are smart about it, but need to give thought to...
• Maybe tank could have done a cleaner pull.
• Maybe it would have been faster to wait a couple seconds.
• Maybe there was reason for tank's hesitation.
• Pugs are a pain when players work against each other rather than with each other.

I enjoy tanking. I play all the tanks. I'm no elite, but I pride myself on facilitating a positive experience for the group. That means pulling fast enough that no reasonable player would get impatient - fast enough to be fun and stay busy - but not so fast that we waste time on wipes either. I'm watching the healer's mana, how fast the mobs die, and my own CDs - including tools like Sigil of Silence or Avenger's Shield that can help make for cleaner pulls. That said, even I have been known to let someone die if they were determined to make my job harder than it needed to be.

[Tarba]

Most of the time I just respec to tank and take the lead. Some tanks are boring people who like to take breaks between each pull. Or suddenly go afk saying nothing and expecting every one to wait for them.
You know when you just finished a pack. The tank stop moving, then he moves a little. He loots a corpse 2/3 seconds, he stops again, and then he start moving to the other pack. Usually he also stop a little again before it or body pull.
Or tanks who will stop just before the boss of a raid, for 2 minutes saying nothing.

I can't stand those guys.

Dps are also stupid. I particulary like the ones who are already moving and waiting for the next pack while the first one is mid life. Or the ones who'll agro every pack you skipped.


In op exemple it would depend of the actual situation.

[Meiffert]

OP mentioned a tank "going at his pace", and a DPS thinking that pace was too slow. [...]

I remember running M+ shortly after the release of Legion, and there were a lot of tanks who just couldn't estimate the optimal pace, meaning maximizing speed and the amount of packs to pull while still surviving.

It's theoretically possible that the pace was too slow. But I think that the tank can generally estimate how much he can handle better than random other players can. They don't know him after all.

Maybe he is new to tanking or new to the instance and can't handle tanking more than he pulled just yet.
Or maybe he doesn't know the strength of the group, so he starts a bit slower and increases the pace over time if things go smoothly.

even little things like starting moving to the next pack when the first pack is <10% HP (aside from bolstering, obviously).

This is exactly one of those things that seem like a little optimization saving a couple seconds. In reality it prevents your from dropping out of combat to swap gear and reset potion cooldown, slowing you by 10 - 20 seconds every time you do it.

Another example is random heroics. [...] I just pull basically everything. I've gotten a lot of hate for that, especially from tanks who don't have any gear.

I don't see how that's relevant to this discussion.
It's trivial content and the "You pull it, you tank it" principle seems to work quite well (because you pull it and you tank it just fine).

[Sarevokcz]

Depends on what "tank going at his pace" means. If everyone is constantly topped and the healer seems bored he's probably not pulling big enough and just wasting everyones time. If "his pace" is a decent one, then yeah, you pull you tank.

maybe they shouldnt pull anyway? happened to me couple of times already, I usually pull at pretty fast pace, but sometimes I am purposedly not pulling for a second since i placed sigil on the ground, someone pulls, most mobs run out of the sigil range, gg. Just dont pull ahead of tank in pugs, easy, all it leads to is drama and more drama. thankfully I dont tank that often outside of guild groups

[Jimson]

It's common knowledge people do things as fast and as efficient possible. If you know beforehand you can't handle that, it literally takes 2 seconds to communicate this to the group. If you don't I'll assume you can handle it and pull in what I assume the group can handle.

Don't act like you don't know how fast a dungeon can be cleared at when you have done it dozens of times. Don't be a pussy, open your mouth and speak up if you know you will perform below the average. (it's nothing to be ashamed off, especially if you are a new player)

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It's a fact.

Average queue time with tanks is 2-10mins tops, dps it's 20-40mins. Meaning at the very least a tank can start his second dungeon before the dps even got in his first. Keep in mind this proces for 2 weeks (let's be generous with the time) and your tank is fully geared while your dps is half way there with some luck.

The tank no longer needs to queue aside from his daily dungeon while the dps still needs to farm twice as long. So in the time it takes to gear up 1 dps, at least 2 tanks are fully geared.

It's something that will never change, you could double the amount of tanks and they will still stop queueing the moment they got all they need from dungeons. Don't forget that raiding guilds only need a few tanks as well, so there is no room for more tanks.

In terms of bad attitude, dps are off worse as they get stuck with toxic attitude after waiting for ages and they can't leave with a serious panelty.

Just to clarify, I rarely had/have any issues in groups as I tend to keep a positive attitude and pull extra in a lightmooded way ("Let's see if we can handle 2 packs? "). It makes a world of difference in how you present yourself.

This has nothing to do with gearing up. The issue is 90% overgeared players pulling, and 10% average or undergeared players pulling because they see the overgeared people doing it. I was in a NL last night for a satchel and a shaman with 2.1M health kept asking "why am I tanking?" as he ran ahead to pull another group. In the meantime I was casually handling the two groups I had already pulled and laughing at him. We finished in 11 minutes and I can confidently say it would have been faster had he contributed anything more than his 5th place DPS.

[Wolfbear]

If it's a random pulling then I would let them die...
But if it's my friend pulling its often to pull the mobs to me so i don't have to do that part, then they just add to the deathball of guys we're AOEing down.

[Bigbazz]

So the rogue pulls the mobs and then expects the tank to cover for him. So not only has he annoyed the tank by inconveniencing him and showing impatience, but he then wants the tank to save him from his own stupidity? Obviously the rogue is in the wrong here, regardless of how annoyed he might be at the tanks lack of pace.. At the end of the day the rogue put himself into this position purely on his own, regardless of the tanks actions (or lack of).

[gallamann]

Most random HC dungeons I do without guild, tank is pulling fine. Every so often you get that tank that is just crawling, fucking queued (their queues are near instant) and waits to last second to accept, then stands around while we kill the first three packs without him. Finally forced to ask if they'd fucking care to join us! Most finally put down their phone or stop playing another game or whatever the fuck they are doing. Some you just kick and keep going.

Then you have those that can Q as tank but are main DPS, if they hold aggro fine, otherwise boot.

My guess, tank in this story was doing something else, which pisses me off to no end. You get near instant queues, if you "need" to do something else then do that first and then queue. We DPS just waited 10-15+ minutes to enjoy your dumb ass not doing the fucking job you signed up to do.

[Deleted]

The "you pull, you tank" mentally is out of touch and just retarded thinking.

It's the tanks JOB to tank shit REGARDLESS of how it was aggroed. That kind of mindset is unacceptable in LFD and LFR imo.

And that's EXACTLY the reason why there are so few tanks willing to go into lfd or even lfr. Dps who think they are the best, pulling everything and then expecting the tank to pick them all up are the reason why the community is and even groes even more toxic by the hour.

The JOB of the dps is to dps, not to pull shit, that's the tank's job. If aggro'ed by accident, the tank should pick it up, no big deal. If pulled on purpose, let the dps die, cry, shout w/ever, and carry on. If the dps continues that behaviour, kick him.
If I'm tanking and have such a dps in my group, i whisper the healer not to heal him if he pulls, best way to get him to learn and to stop that behaviour. If that doesn't do the trick, I kick him from the group. Nothing gets people better to learn than another 30min queue for a 10min daily hc or a lfr-wing they want to leech.

Just wanting to get my point across; though I don't even know why I'm bothered to reply to a Jaylock-quote, it is that exact mentality of his that poisons the community and it has been spreading for years.

[Tolian]

Late to the party here, but I'd add my agreement to the rogue's an idiot for not tricksing the tank in the first place. That being said, these pissing matches between randoms can be a real drag. Lot of internet heroes out there who talk big from the safety of their computer screen. Wish people would just grow up, but I guess that's the downside to an MMO that's open to everyone is you get the immature a-holes too.

[Xarathan]

And last time I checked dps usually don't kill trash mobs faster than the trash mobs kill the tank if it becomes too much for the tank to handle. Ever done mythic plus ever? Or do you only run daily heroic?

Fairly certain that the OP was on about heroics... Im 2k m+ score tho since you inquired.

[Blood Raven]

I'd say just let the tank pull. If he's going too slow for you just ask him to speed it up a little. Pulling more intentionally on him is stupid since you don't know if he's waiting on cds, the healer's mana, or if he's just new and learning. Chances are if you're nice and ask them to pick up the pace they will.

[Flatspriest]

I never thought I'd say these words... But I agree with Jaylock...

But Jaylock is wrong since the OP stated that the tank was already tanking and going at his own pace. The rogue was in the wrong for trying to over-pull and force the tank out of their own ability. You pull it, you tank it is a way to teach crappy dps not to pull when the tank isn't ready.

[SirCowdog]

So the rogue pulls the mobs and then expects the tank to cover for him. So not only has he annoyed the tank by inconveniencing him and showing impatience, but he then wants the tank to save him from his own stupidity? Obviously the rogue is in the wrong here, regardless of how annoyed he might be at the tanks lack of pace.. At the end of the day the rogue put himself into this position purely on his own, regardless of the tanks actions (or lack of).

The DPS apologists are going to tell you that the tank created the situation by refusing to "git gud" and bow down before the pace set by the Rogue's spot on the meters. :/

[Khallid]

Situation: RDF, tank going at his pace, rogue decides it's not fast enough, goes pulling packs, tank gives no f*cks, rogue dies, rogue throws tantrum, tank says "You pull, you tank".


Question: Who's in the right?

Of course the tank is right.

I can see why a dps would be bored if a tank is going slow... but RDF? Heroic dungeons? Why would the Rogue die? I pull shit as much as I want as dps in heroic dungeons, and I tank and kill it in two seconds. The rogue was weak to begin with. He deserved to die.

[Deleted]

Fairly certain that the OP was on about heroics... Im 2k m+ score tho since you inquired.

And people were talking about it on principle, and as I mentioned in heroic you don't even need tanks or healers in the first place. Since you're supposedly 2k m+ score you should be well aware of the fact that dps should not pull for the tank, else you'll probably wipe the group, so I'm really not sure what you're trying to argue at this point.

[3DTyrant]

But Jaylock is wrong since the OP stated that the tank was already tanking and going at his own pace. The rogue was in the wrong for trying to over-pull and force the tank out of their own ability. You pull it, you tank it is a way to teach crappy dps not to pull when the tank isn't ready.

What is a tank meant to do? Take aggro from shit, what's a DPS not meant to do, pull so far ahead of the tank/rest of the group that they die, they're both in the wrong.

[Hotsforyou]

The tank was absolutely correct here. As someone who does nothing but tank since BC, nothing infuriates me more than DPS running ahead and pulling packs. Most of the time they have no clue on healers mana, cooldowns that were used or what ever. They just want to GO GO GO. I will literally drop groups when DPS start that. So infuriating.

Edit: This is also one of the many reasons i stopped doing 5 mans and pugging a long time ago. Only go in there is i am with guildies.

[Gilgallad]

The tank is right, the rogue was wrong. Chain pulling doesn't work on everything just because someone decided to do a dungeon just before leaving for class/work/chores or w/e, especially not on timewalking dungeons. Personally I would have started a kick vote on the rogue.