Magni scenario made me realize how beautiful Northrend is

[Coffeh]

Honestly? Broken Isle was the first zone ever I didn't feel I was "in a world". it had that sandbox feeling for some reason, a feeling I never had before in WoW leveling zones, not even in Deepholm. I think they missed something on the Broken Isle I just can't tell what

It's too cramped and too full of mobs. It's not a believable world. It's like it was designed to be a pain in the ass to traverse.

I can finally appreciate some of its beauty being able to fly above it and actually see further than 3 feet in front of my character. But it still pales in comparison to zones from earlier expansions, and especially Vanilla world...which was AMAZING.

[Kynario]

Agreed!

Northrend is still very beautiful indeed. The zones there are simply incredible. Music and lore wise too!

[Deleted]

What?

So you're saying that because most zones had snow... there was somehow continuity in WotLK? But then you used Draonblight and Sholazar Basin as counter examples as to why WotLK didn't have a themepark continent. You literally have one zone dedicated to a dragon graveyard, and another zone that just flat out doesn't fit at all. You have a troll zone, a vrykul zone, a dwarf zone, and a tauren zone.

I loved WotLK but I can't help but think you are being ironic, because if you're actually serious I may have to come unglued at how ridiculous you're being.

When did I say anything about snow?

[A dot Ham]

^^^

For those who remember leveling in vanilla. Like, actually leveling in vanilla; before epic mounts were even a concept shared with fans for an upcoming patch; IE: when 40 (FORTY) was the level when you could hope you had the gold needed to buy a normal mount. These people remember leveling in places like Desolace and Tanaris ON FOOT- combined with the old quest design that had you going from desolace, to tanaris, to feralas every 3-4 quests in vain attempts to push the level bar just a bit more so that you could jump into un'goro, punch out a level or two and then abandon the entire freakin continent and go hit the plaguelands. (And let's be honest; the reason Un'goro helped was due to the amount of mobs you had to kill- just how many apes did you kill before you finally got the however many furs needed for that stupid robot monkey? How many just abandoned the damn quest opting to grind DM instead?)

Granted, to be fair; I have a great many very fond memories of vanilla and TBC. But if I just take off my nostalgia goggles for half a second and really think on ALL of the memories I have from back then, after filtering out the fond ones; I arrive at:

"F***you Desolace and all the centaurs that live there. F*** you Burning Steppes. F*** you Searing Gorge. F*** you Un'goro I hope someone fills you with water and probably chief among them all; F*** you Marshal Windsor I never went a single day without wishing I could leave you to die in that god forsaken cell"

So much this.

Personally when I think back to the fun times, it has more to do with who I was playing with at the time, and almost nothing to do with the content we were actually playing.

[Deleted]

2. The transitions from one ecosystem to the next made the most sense with older maps. WotLK for example has sholazar basin next to WG but there was an ecotone linking the two different ecosystems. They tried to do the same with Legion maps but it only comes off reasonably between the transition from Aszuna to Val'sharah (eg wetland marsh environment).

Hahahahahahahahahahaha. I assume you're joking right? Durotar/Barrens goes from red crack desert to savannah in a river. Thousand needles to Ferlas. Hellfire to Zangamarah, yeah throw a couple of dead looking mushrooma that distract from the jolting change from red to blue. Yes Wotlk had good transitions but claiming BC and original(older maps) is wrong. legion has go the most part smoother transitions.

Other points are all subjective. I agree with some and disagree with others.

[A dot Ham]

When did I say anything about snow?

You didn't that was my assumption because there is nothing else that ties any of them together to support your claim. WotLK was just as much segregated and them park(y) as Legion. Nice job avoiding the entire point... just to hone in on some ridiculous nitpick.

[Cynical Person]

I hope they continue to take us back to old content from time to time because a lot of it is very nostalgic and beautiful. I really respect the work they put into these old zones.

[Kolvarg]

Then I went to Wintergrasp and once again I was reminded about beautiful music in Northrend.

Still gives me chills every time I listen to it, Wintergrasp music is still the most relaxing and beautiful of all WoW soundtrack imho (along with a few others, especially between WotLK and MoP, but not exclusively).


I do miss WotLK, but I'm not entirely sure how much of it is missing it for what it is (ie, WotLK actually being the best "state" of the game) and how much of it is simply missing how it felt experiencing it back then and getting into WoW (I started playing mostly during WotLK).

I do miss the leveling as it was back then, though. As painful and tedious as it could be when you really just wanted to level another class to raid with, it defenitely felt like an adventure.

[Deleted]

You didn't that was my assumption because there is nothing else that ties any of them together to support your claim. WotLK was just as much segregated and them park(y) as Legion. Nice job avoiding the entire point... just to hone in on some ridiculous nitpick.

But I didn't say anything about "continuity of zones" either. Are you sure you are quoting the right person?

[Jester Joe]

I just flew over it without even paying attention honestly.

Only zone that really grabbed my attention was Icecrown when I went through Wrath leveling. I mean...Dragonblight is literally just flat empty land with snow. Even Storm Peaks was more interesting.

MoP had more interesting zones in my opinion, while still throwing in flat landscape.

[McNeil]

I've always found Northrend beautifull and its still my favorite continent to date. Its a huge step up compared to Outland which just looks bland, even for its time. Vanilla zones also had their own charm and I prefer those vast open areas that helps to make the world look huge. Its just the dated graphics that is now off-putting. Legion zones look nicely detailed but they feel to cramped with to many annoying cliffs and hills, with Highmountain being the worst offender. Also not a fan of Stormheim which really shows the worst in Legions zone design.

I also liked having all those towns and villages from both Alliance & Horde, something you don't see these days. A town like New Agamand, Wintergarde Keep and even just 1 building (Warsong Hold) all felt huge and gives this extra feeling of settling in. Legion only has very small bases (can't even really call it a town or village) with a couple of houses in the middle of the zone, and they are all shared with the Alliance and Horde.

Zones like Howling Fjord, Grizzly Hills, Dragonblight, Storm Peaks and Icecrown remain my favorites of the game. They all had their own charm with diverse music, atmosphere, story that doesn't have to be all connected to defeating the Scourge. I wouldn't mind seeing more zones like these in the future.

[Lochton]

There was no "tools" for shortcuts in vanilla.
I didn't say there were, though. And even so, there were 'tools' as the majority of the mountains could be scaled via glitching.

It was your hearth and ground mount and the maps were designed to be navigated by foot and ground mount. That is why people love the vanilla maps were against what Cata did.

The maps were flat, was designed to not hold much obstacle to the new traveler. It was still a new concept to the team, and gotta start somewhere.

Demands more time? That isn't interesting.

Is to some, isn't to others. Isn't that hard to traverse the recent maps, unless you're unwilling to adjust. And just want the flight to avoid.

If you are spending more time navigating a vertical maze that isn't interesting, fun, unique, special, extraordinary, fantastic, stupendous, etc.

It means Blizz has become lazy with map design. And it shows with WoD and Legion.

I would have to disagree, there's not really a feel of maze with the Legion ones. Well, maybe High Mountain because of well, MOUNTAINS. And Stormheim has a lovely mechanic that makes it a little more interesting, I feel. Definitely made world PvP fun.

If you took map designs now, and compared with those of the past, I think the past would've been accounted as the lazy option (And I am not talking about texture, as that would be unfair). A vast empty area "isn't interesting, fun, unique, special, extraordinary, fantastic, stupendous, etc."

The only vanilla zone that could be considered a challenge to traverse was, Un'goro Crater, Feralas and well, any zone with massive trees and swamp/water. The rest was nothing, flat walks, salt walks, plain running and beach bouncing.

[Mafic]

The maps were flat, was designed to not hold much obstacle to the new traveler. It was still a new concept to the team, and gotta start somewhere.

This is not accurate at all. It is not a new concept as other MMOs use a similar design which is a proven design. The reason why flat works in MMORPGs is because you can change the distribution of mob density and frequency. With the rail roaded corridors of WoD and Legion maps you can't change where the mobs are dropped on the map but only how many and how often the spawn.

Is to some, isn't to others. Isn't that hard to traverse the recent maps, unless you're unwilling to adjust. And just want the flight to avoid.

The WoD and Legion maps are purposefully designed to be hard to traverse as maps as they are not ground mount friendly. And that is why they added gimmicks because it would be painful to the player to do so (flight whistle, glider, avianna feather, etc)

I would have to disagree, there's not really a feel of maze with the Legion ones. Well, maybe High Mountain because of well, MOUNTAINS. And Stormheim has a lovely mechanic that makes it a little more interesting, I feel. Definitely made world PvP fun.

Grappling hook is a boring mechancic and Stormheim is a copy pasta from a better designed zone form WotLK. As for world PVP? Legion features the worst world PVP I have ever seen. EVER.

If you took map designs now, and compared with those of the past, I think the past would've been accounted as the lazy option (And I am not talking about texture, as that would be unfair). A vast empty area "isn't interesting, fun, unique, special, extraordinary, fantastic, stupendous, etc."

That is a limitation of technology and also the player's specs at the time that was available on the market. That isn't a mark against design that works but still looks good ten years later.

Empty areas like Frostfire Ridge make a real remote zone that is supposed depict the atmosphere of the zone. Mobs every ten feet in a small map like Broken Isles Zones is simply cheap theatrics.

The only vanilla zone that could be considered a challenge to traverse was, Un'goro Crater, Feralas and well, any zone with massive trees and swamp/water. The rest was nothing, flat walks, salt walks, plain running and beach bouncing.

That isn't true though, because a lot of zones were navigable with hidden path ways not just traditional routes.

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Hahahahahahahahahahaha. I assume you're joking right? Durotar/Barrens goes from red crack desert to savannah in a river. Thousand needles to Ferlas. Hellfire to Zangamarah, yeah throw a couple of dead looking mushrooma that distract from the jolting change from red to blue. Yes Wotlk had good transitions but claiming BC and original(older maps) is wrong. legion has go the most part smoother transitions.

Other points are all subjective. I agree with some and disagree with others.

First of all I already stated that BC was designed around the premise of fragmentation so you are not going to see those ecotone transitions. As for the orignal vanilla map there was ecotone transitions done well actually before Cata destroyed it all.

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Sorry you feel that way about the game.

As someone currently playing, I'd say you're hilariously wrong. We even have invasions in Broken Isles zones now. Wanna know how people spoke of WOTLK zones back in the day?

Boring Tundra
Howling Bore
Sholazar Boring
Winteryawn

And wanna speak of zones with lots of vertical spaces for the sake of having them, with much dead space? Look at Storm Peaks. Yeah...

That isn't true though.

Other than Boring Tundra the other zones were beloved. Zul Drak was the least like zone after Boring Tundra.

Wintergrasp was loved by gatherers and PVP players. As well as PVE and PVP players that did the raid contained below after a WG battle.

Howling Fjord was one of the most popular starting expansion zones in the HISTORY of this game. Enough said.

Sholozar Basin was primarily a leveling zone and didn't have much end game activity other than rep. But it still was enjoyed for its visuals at the time.

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Meanwhile, that's the exact treatment they gave to questing zones before MoP... Those "vast open spaces" you now hail as some sort of amazing design choice, were actually just "open" and empty for the sake of it. Back then, those "vast open spaces" were not viewed in a quite as romantic shimmer...

And now we've graduated to "modern zones have no beautiful vistas!!"...
Meanwhile;













Talk about not seeing the forest for all the trees... Even WoD zones had amazing vistas and open spaces in areas where they made sense.

That is your opinion on art direction and has ZERO to do with map layout our design.

In terms of art direction I prefer BC OVER Legion when it comes to the Legion invasion forces. One is done with tact but also a sense of real conflict while the other is a like a fart in a wet paper bag (Boring Shore).

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I leveled a character recently and man..they designed old zones so much better than they do now. Large, wide open spaces. Actual vacant areas, which is much more realistic since not every square inch of a real world is full of mobs. Legion zones, by contrast, are terrible. Small in size. Tightly compacted, narrow, compressed. Little to no open spaces. No beautiful vistas since everything is so cramped.

I hope they go back to designing a believable world, rather than a bunch of a questing zones.

If you remember the old vanilla maps the nostalgia hits you harder. The problem with vanilla questing was going across entire continents to complete a quest chain. But other than that vanilla, BC, WotLK, and MoP had a reasonable zone layouts and map designs. Cata was the first to be hated because the zones were disjointed.

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I've always found Northrend beautifull and its still my favorite continent to date. Its a huge step up compared to Outland which just looks bland, even for its time. Vanilla zones also had their own charm and I prefer those vast open areas that helps to make the world look huge. Its just the dated graphics that is now off-putting. Legion zones look nicely detailed but they feel to cramped with to many annoying cliffs and hills, with Highmountain being the worst offender. Also not a fan of Stormheim which really shows the worst in Legions zone design.

I also liked having all those towns and villages from both Alliance & Horde, something you don't see these days. A town like New Agamand, Wintergarde Keep and even just 1 building (Warsong Hold) all felt huge and gives this extra feeling of settling in. Legion only has very small bases (can't even really call it a town or village) with a couple of houses in the middle of the zone, and they are all shared with the Alliance and Horde.

Zones like Howling Fjord, Grizzly Hills, Dragonblight, Storm Peaks and Icecrown remain my favorites of the game. They all had their own charm with diverse music, atmosphere, story that doesn't have to be all connected to defeating the Scourge. I wouldn't mind seeing more zones like these in the future.

Grizzy Hills is what Stormheim should have been but it felt short badly.

[Deleted]

Meh. I hated that cold, dreary crap.

+++

Nothing appealing about Nortrend. Current designs are 10 times better.

[Dhrizzle]

And in my opinion the new zones are looking almost the same(not literally)... I mean there are less diversity between Broken Isles zones and TBC/Wotlk/MoP/WoD zones.

I think Legion (too craggy,) MoP (too woody) and WotLK (too icey) all suffered from having the terrain be too samey. TBC had too much variety, going from red desert to blue or turquoise forest to orange mountains to purple deserts. I reckon that WoD probably had the best variety of terrain whilst still seeming like the zones belonged next to each other.

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^^^

For those who remember leveling in vanilla. Like, actually leveling in vanilla; before epic mounts were even a concept shared with fans for an upcoming patch; IE: when 40 (FORTY) was the level when you could hope you had the gold needed to buy a normal mount. These people remember leveling in places like Desolace and Tanaris ON FOOT- combined with the old quest design that had you going from desolace, to tanaris, to feralas every 3-4 quests in vain attempts to push the level bar just a bit more so that you could jump into un'goro, punch out a level or two and then abandon the entire freakin continent and go hit the plaguelands. (And let's be honest; the reason Un'goro helped was due to the amount of mobs you had to kill- just how many apes did you kill before you finally got the however many furs needed for that stupid robot monkey? How many just abandoned the damn quest opting to grind DM instead?)

Granted, to be fair; I have a great many very fond memories of vanilla and TBC. But if I just take off my nostalgia goggles for half a second and really think on ALL of the memories I have from back then, after filtering out the fond ones; I arrive at:

"F***you Desolace and all the centaurs that live there. F*** you Burning Steppes. F*** you Searing Gorge. F*** you Un'goro I hope someone fills you with water and probably chief among them all; F*** you Marshal Windsor I never went a single day without wishing I could leave you to die in that god forsaken cell"

You should have had your mount before hitting Tanaris, especially as you should have spent some time in Hinterlands before hand to get the mallet for the last boss in Zul'farak (and rescue Sharpbeak.) Also leave Searing Gorge out of this, if you do the quests in the right order you just need to do a few decent loops and pick up tonnes of XP.

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Honestly? Broken Isle was the first zone ever I didn't feel I was "in a world". it had that sandbox feeling for some reason, a feeling I never had before in WoW leveling zones, not even in Deepholm. I think they missed something on the Broken Isle I just can't tell what

I feel the opposite, Broken Isles feel like they're supposed to be small. Other continents have always given the impression they just represent something that's supposed to be a lot larger.

[Lochton]

This is not accurate at all. It is not a new concept as other MMOs use a similar design which is a proven design. The reason why flat works in MMORPGs is because you can change the distribution of mob density and frequency. With the rail roaded corridors of WoD and Legion maps you can't change where the mobs are dropped on the map but only how many and how often the spawn.

I didn't saw it was a new concept, I said it was new to the team. The reason flat zones 'works' is because they are easy to 'repair', they are easy to adjust, they are easy to edit. Nothing more. The mob density was revealed to be that of a brush spawn, just like the other expansions. Apply dot, and away for mobs to walk out. The new system is applied with how often depending on players, while you can almost have a picnic in old zones, waiting for quest mobs.

The WoD and Legion maps are purposefully designed to be hard to traverse as maps as they are not ground mount friendly. And that is why they added gimmicks because it would be painful to the player to do so (flight whistle, glider, avianna feather, etc)

They aren't even hard to traverse, stop kidding. There is multiple paths, no a maze. If you call that a maze, I guess you complained about Stranglethorn too? They added gimmicks (in my opinion) to appease the people who couldn't adjust to the terrain as others. And the sounds have no problem to be traversed on ground mount - unless it is because you can't be tabbed out while.

Grappling hook is a boring mechancic and Stormheim is a copy pasta from a better designed zone form WotLK. As for world PVP? Legion features the worst world PVP I have ever seen. EVER.

It wasn't even close to a copy to what you seem to have believed Grizzly Hills was to have been. Grizzly hills in itself was a great design that was slowly trying to decorate the scenery as needed. And as for the hook, it was a mechanic added for the sake of permitting the player to traverse deeper into the zone, hunting for shortcuts and 'secrets'.

As for World PvP, I have experienced it better in Legion than in Warlords of Draenor, that to me is a better point.

That is a limitation of technology and also the player's specs at the time that was available on the market. That isn't a mark against design that works but still looks good ten years later.

Tough, you were the one who brought the flat zones on the topic from vanilla. Another reason to adjust for better specs of players instead of being stuck with something like a Lego board. We don't play on ancient computers (well, most of us) and thus are able to be impressed with that of the zone developers and their imagination. Not much imagination with a flat zone, it starts being interesting once cliffs, woods, rivers, mountains (depending on zone) and more starts being part of our path.

Empty areas like Frostfire Ridge make a real remote zone that is supposed depict the atmosphere of the zone. Mobs every ten feet in a small map like Broken Isles Zones is simply cheap theatrics.

Frostfire Ridge was designed to be a wasteland though, like Dragonblight. It's the atmosphere of there. Just like we have short areas of plains on an island that has NOT been blessed with much luck, compared to other places.

As for the mobs, I am sorry what? Can't handle your foe? And no, the mobs aren't every ten feet, had to be pedantic on that. The mobs are adjusted for the zones they are in, and well, in the end, magically enough -they don't get fewer for a reason. You WILL meet a threat in this world, like in any other of the maps. Except here, you don't have to travel a long distance for another set of hooves or beaks (Man, repeating that almost makes it sound like adding closer spawning mobs was just a gimmick so people didn't have to do much for it).

That isn't true though, because a lot of zones were navigable with hidden path ways not just traditional routes.

All the zones was a path back then. Was 'traditional' but there sure hell wasn't much else either. Dodge a tree, jump a river, scoot around a rock. Only few areas proved to have a little 'challenge' to the journey.

First of all I already stated that BC was designed around the premise of fragmentation so you are not going to see those ecotone transitions. As for the orignal vanilla map there was ecotone transitions done well actually before Cata destroyed it all.

The transitions of vanilla was just a line of 'cliffs' to divide the colours. Was smart back then, one wouldn't notice until on a flight path, or now, flying. There was some zones that had a viable transition but in the end, mostly mountains covered that phase. Most zones have their themes made, with a 'connect 1 to 2' section, where a dusty path meets scorched ground. That is how they were, WOTLK and up slowly started smoothing it out more.

That isn't true though.

Actually, some of those were true.

Other than Boring Tundra the other zones were beloved. Zul Drak was the least like zone after Boring Tundra.

Boring Tundra, Wintergrasp wasn't like when no war was in. Zul'Drak was disliked and people was having ragefits about Storm Peaks. Grizzly Hills, Howling Fjord and half of Dragonblight was the more popular. And Crasharan was as well, sadly.

Wintergrasp was loved by gatherers and PVP players. As well as PVE and PVP players that did the raid contained below after a WG battle.

Was only loved as long as the fight was there, or worse, was only loved as long as your faction owned Wintergrasp.

Howling Fjord was one of the most popular starting expansion zones in the HISTORY of this game. Enough said.

That I am not disagreeing with, even though Howling Fjord is under one of those zones that are developing away from flat maps.

Sholozar Basin was primarily a leveling zone and didn't have much end game activity other than rep. But it still was enjoyed for its visuals at the time.

Sholozar was a shopping center for skinning and herbs, nothing more. Oh, well, the reputation and people threatening to kill each other IRL due to Loque'Nahak.

That is your opinion on art direction and has ZERO to do with map layout our design.

Art direction is working hand in hand with zone development.

In terms of art direction I prefer BC OVER Legion when it comes to the Legion invasion forces. One is done with tact but also a sense of real conflict while the other is a like a fart in a wet paper bag (Boring Shore).

I would more say, one was done with tact for its time, the other done with speciality for its time.

If you remember the old vanilla maps the nostalgia hits you harder. The problem with vanilla questing was going across entire continents to complete a quest chain. But other than that vanilla, BC, WotLK, and MoP had a reasonable zone layouts and map designs. Cata was the first to be hated because the zones were disjointed.

The hate of map layouts already started in Wrath. And hate for quest layout was from the start.

Grizzy Hills is what Stormheim should have been but it felt short badly.

That is what your opinion is. I foudn Grizzly Hills to cope with what it was, just fine. It was a settlement zone. Nothing more. Horde, Alliance, Worgen, Venture Co, Taunka. It was one of my favorites. As well at the fact that it was attempted to be industrialized, to show that people needed the zone.

[Vaerys]

Diversity - I don't think it would feel very real if the differences would be too huge between zones sharing a border. You can't realistically put a desert next to a lush forest, it just doesn't make sense.

You kind of can.

Tibetan Plateau
Hawaii's Ka'u Desert
Hawaii has 10 of the world's 14 climate zones: An explorer's guide to each of them

[Queen of Hamsters]

*Snip*.

You're just presenting a whole lot of opinions, many of whom are based in factually incorrect shit, or presented as fact although it hinges upon personal factors.

Have fun failing at seeing the forest for all the trees I suppose. I remember the things you say now about Legion zones, being said about WOTLK zones on top of the complaints that wotlk zones were dead once most people reached max level. Yes, even shit like "The zones don't have any beautiful vistas!"... Factually incorrect, even if you need to actually appreciate the beauty to see it, which comes down to opinion. Saying Legion zones don't have them through some fucking design choice, is retarded on a whole new level. As proven by the very few images I presented above.

[Eazy]

I think Legion (too craggy,) MoP (too woody) and WotLK (too icey) all suffered from having the terrain be too samey. TBC had too much variety, going from red desert to blue or turquoise forest to orange mountains to purple deserts. I reckon that WoD probably had the best variety of terrain whilst still seeming like the zones belonged next to each other.

I didn't expect anything more from Wotlk and MoP, but I agree with Legion and WoD.
Though I liked TBC because I had option to be in totally different lands, it felt like something bigger.

Diversity - I don't think it would feel very real if the differences would be too huge between zones sharing a border. You can't realistically put a desert next to a lush forest, it just doesn't make sense.

[AcidicSyn]

I think Legion (too craggy,) MoP (too woody) and WotLK (too icey) all suffered from having the terrain be too samey. TBC had too much variety, going from red desert to blue or turquoise forest to orange mountains to purple deserts. I reckon that WoD probably had the best variety of terrain whilst still seeming like the zones belonged next to each other.

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You should have had your mount before hitting Tanaris, especially as you should have spent some time in Hinterlands before hand to get the mallet for the last boss in Zul'farak (and rescue Sharpbeak.) Also leave Searing Gorge out of this, if you do the quests in the right order you just need to do a few decent loops and pick up tonnes of XP.

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I feel the opposite, Broken Isles feel like they're supposed to be small. Other continents have always given the impression they just represent something that's supposed to be a lot larger.

My first toon took an odd path to leveling; I'm not even sure I went through hinterlands to be honest which was probably my issue back then, though I was a warlock, so luckily my mount cost me a whopping 9 gold when I finally did ding, compared to the 100g everyone else had to fork over. (Of course I paid for it a few patches later when the epic steeds released and I became one of a thousand warlock beggers trying to convince people that coming to DM with me so that I could get my mount was somehow a good way for them to spend time.....lol)

As for searing gorge, I'll make you a deal; you give me 15 minutes alone with Windsor, and I'll forgive searing gorge...or at least try to.