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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by BuckSparkles View Post
    I mean, the only ignorant drones are the ones acting like the USA is the most evil horrible country in the world and that only we have had bad parts in our history when in reality every nation has had rough patches and overcame them.

    If you have a society of people who hate their country and refuse to see all the good it does, how can it survive? That is one reason I think democrats are bad for the country. They only teach hatred and contempt of the USA.

    - - - Updated - - -



    What are you, 6?
    I'm only speaking at your level of understanding other people. I doubt you even know what you're talking about when it comes to people saying "the US is a horrible place" when you've never said what it is they say that makes them sound hate filled beyond not sucking this counties epeen off everyday.

  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    It was applied, thoroughly. And that's not even close. It's like saying Miranda's rights aren't relevant to the topic at the moment because whatever happened was deemed to fall within the normal standards.
    And the "normal standards" are what exactly?" I will admit Miranda was not the best example (search and seizure rights would be a better example to be honest).

    The inconvenience of exception tests to speech that people really don't like to address is that you can't decide if they apply and move on. There is no unilateral decision to be made or a hard playbook to go by. The public interest balancing test of the courts on it are profoundly uncertain and complex, and they do tend to come down very aggressively in favor of free speech when a government entity is involved, employer or not. You and I both seem to agree that what he did went beyond the bounds of protected speech in context but quite frankly it's not conclusive enough to dismiss the speech question out of hand. His speech is a commentary on matters of public interest, and demonstrating sufficient disruption is not the cut and dry task it seems to be.
    Last edited by Alfador; 2017-08-16 at 09:05 PM. Reason: edited to sound less unnecessarily dickish

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Assbandit View Post
    Did you even take a glance at the book? That's just a tad above being "islamophobic". Also anyone who has risked their sanity even a tiny bit in alt-right and white nationalist/neo-Nazis websites (as I have) would know the significance and exactly where that terminology is coming from and it's just plain vile.
    Meanwhile you had black TV shows in the 90s and 2000s where every time there was a white character they were either a buffoon or a villain yet nobody said shit about that. Also stating facts isn't Islamaphobic. That word needs an auto infraction just like with saying libtard. I mean there is no such thing as Islamaphobia. It's people being rational about a religion that is refusing to come into the current age. We all laugh at and condemn Westboro Baptist Church or those little cults of icestuous midwestern Christians and yet you get any Muslim on CNN and they refuse to condemn the ridiculous stuff saying kill the infidels etc. Maybe once Islam comes to 2017 we could discuss calling people Islamaphobic, but until then, it isn't a thing.


    [Infracted]
    Last edited by Endus; 2017-08-16 at 09:23 PM.

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by BuckSparkles View Post
    It isn't good for the country to be constantly telling people how awful it is. Talk about ungrateful.
    Nothing ever improves without critical examination and dissent. Gratitude or a lack thereof has next to nothing to do with it.

    If the country can't handle some people saying mean things it's in a lot worse shape than either of us think it is.

  5. #125
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by purebalance View Post
    Meanwhile you had black TV shows in the 90s and 2000s where every time there was a white character they were either a buffoon or a villain yet nobody said shit about that. Also stating facts isn't Islamaphobic. That word needs an auto infraction just like with saying libtard. I mean there is no such thing as Islamaphobia. It's people being rational about a religion that is refusing to come into the current age. We all laugh at and condemn Westboro Baptist Church or those little cults of icestuous midwestern Christians and yet you get any Muslim on CNN and they refuse to condemn the ridiculous stuff saying kill the infidels etc. Maybe once Islam comes to 2017 we could discuss calling people Islamaphobic, but until then, it isn't a thing.
    Might want to try spelling Islamophobia correctly before criticising it.

    Also, you might want to try acquiring some knowledge of Islam that isn't from cable news.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by purebalance View Post
    Meanwhile you had black TV shows in the 90s and 2000s where every time there was a white character they were either a buffoon or a villain yet nobody said shit about that. Also stating facts isn't Islamaphobic. That word needs an auto infraction just like with saying libtard. I mean there is no such thing as Islamaphobia. It's people being rational about a religion that is refusing to come into the current age. We all laugh at and condemn Westboro Baptist Church or those little cults of icestuous midwestern Christians and yet you get any Muslim on CNN and they refuse to condemn the ridiculous stuff saying kill the infidels etc. Maybe once Islam comes to 2017 we could discuss calling people Islamaphobic, but until then, it isn't a thing.
    Um, yes... it is a thing.

    I have literally seen people say that all Muslims in America need to be murdered, because they are a blight on humanity, and are un-evolved savages.

    I'd call that Islamophobic.

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by Alfador View Post
    And the "normal standards" are what exactly?"

    You can keep saying that's not it all you want but it really doesn't make it true. I will admit Miranda was not the best example (search and seizure rights would be a better example to be honest).

    The inconvenience of exception tests to speech that people really don't like to address is that you can't decide if they apply and move on. There is no unilateral decision to be made or a hard playbook to go by. The public interest balancing test of the courts on it are profoundly uncertain and complex, and they do tend to come down very aggressively in favor of free speech when a government entity is involved, employer or not. You and I both seem to agree that what he did went beyond the bounds of protected speech in context but quite frankly it's not conclusive enough to dismiss the speech question out of hand. His speech is a commentary on matters of public interest, and demonstrating sufficient disruption is not the cut and dry task it seems to be.
    Normal standards is just my vague way of saying anything protected by said rule. My fault on that part.

    And I think the issue is less of "what is true" and more of "we're looking at this from different perspectives".

    I'm saying right now, at this point, there's no point of us debating whether it's freedom of speech, because we both do agree it went beyond the bounds, so ergo, it becomes pointless to talk about/irrelevant. And from there, anyone coming in and claiming "Well, he's protected by freedom of speech" is just making a faulty claim.

    Is it worth debating whether or not that he should be protected? Maybe, it's not a conversation I'm interested in though really. Which seems to be where you're coming from now, unless I'm mistaken completely? To me, the judgement was already made, and whether or not we debate in circles as to whether he should have been protected or not is pointless since I doubt the government or school cares to check here for validation on the topic, and I agree with his punishment anyway.

    And for final clarification, that's what I meant by "it's irrelevant", it was in response to what I took as a vague claim of "this breaks Freedom of speech".

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Um, yes... it is a thing.

    I have literally seen people say that all Muslims in America need to be murdered, because they are a blight on humanity, and are un-evolved savages.

    I'd call that Islamophobic.
    You know, we could try to acculturate Islam...foster its liberal branches...try to integrate Islam better into Western society to make the cultural transition and the cultural dialogue easier.

    But hey, that takes effort and policies that are more extensive than two sentence talking points.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    So a teacher wrote an islamophobic children's book and got fired and I should care why?
    Point out the the islamophobic parts.

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by xuros View Post
    Point out the the islamophobic parts.
    You'd need a finger as large as the book.

  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by Skroe View Post
    "We have nothing to fear but fear itself". Too bad the ALt-Right isn't made of such stuff to take that to heart. Cowards through and through.
    And idiots. I mean, a lot of them. It is as if radical and fringe groups attract the weak, the slow-minded, the fearful. All of this has happened befor, and all of it will happen again. And again. And again.

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    You are hopping into a discussion half way that has already been agreed upon by both sides that his firing/removal did fall within reason, regardless of "Freedom of Speech". The debate now is whether or not talking about it is still relevant. To me, it's not, because it fell within reason. The issue here is that what he did "undermined the employer's interest in discipline and order", as said by the other poster.

    There is no "false claim", you should go back and re-read the entire discussion instead.
    I don't have to I already have and you're wrong. Unless he brought the book into school, he didn't. He could easily take this to court. Easily.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    You'd need a finger as large as the book.
    There is no such thing as Isalamphobia. Can I start saying Christianphobia when people say something about Christians then? Should we just let WBC keep acting like shitbags and not denounce them at soldier's funerals? No. So until "mainstream Islam" denounces the stupid shit in the Koran like a lot of Christians do, Islamaphobia is not a thing

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by purebalance View Post
    You "addressed it" by wrong ideas. Freedom of Speech 100% implies that the US/state/local governments cannot affect your job for what he did. You didn't address it. You made a false claim and are now saying "amg we're done with it I addressed it". There have been cases that set out what exactly freedom of speech in the US does. You might want to read up on them.
    I have to (partially) agree with Jester Joe here. There are 2 separate issues at play.

    The first is that public employers do have certain free speech obligations that private ones don't. I think we've actually come to a satisfactory agreement on that even if our semantics differ a little. I don't think there's a "false claim" as much as a lacking of clarity that has sense been provided. I can't speak for anyone else but I consider that issue closed.

    The second is whether it's still a meaningful free speech issue once you've acknowledged that and identified an exception. That's where I'm going to stick aggressively to my guns and say it remains a free speech issue because the relevant exception tests are enduring. If at any point it's apparent that the discipline was over the nature or content of the speech and not the disruption it caused to job at hand, the exception may very well go right out the window.

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by Skroe View Post
    If you want to know how Osama bin Laden won the War on Terror (and it wasn't even close) when it comes to the Alt-Right, this picture captures it.



    Here we have a picture of thinly vieled muslim stereotypes, meant to scare them, designed for a children's books, 16 years later. That is the extent of Osama Bin Laden's victory over them. He has successfully colonized the minds and souls of some weak willed Alt-Right Americans to the point they feel they must instill fear in children.

    "We have nothing to fear but fear itself". Too bad the ALt-Right isn't made of such stuff to take that to heart. Cowards through and through.
    All i see is a fat croc-guy with lots of hair and a beard with fat person clothes on, and mudmen standing around it.

  15. #135
    Banned BuckSparkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by purebalance View Post



    There is no such thing as Isalamphobia.
    Need to remember to the left nothing is worse than criticizing islam, even though bashing Christianity is fine.

    It's amazing for a group who claims they stand for women and gays love a religion that hates both.


    [Infracted]
    Last edited by Endus; 2017-08-16 at 09:22 PM.

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by purebalance View Post
    I don't have to I already have and you're wrong. Unless he brought the book into school, he didn't. He could easily take this to court. Easily.
    There is no such thing as Isalamphobia.
    You clearly have no intention of discuss this honestly then.

    Not only is it ridiculously wrong to claim there's no such thing as Islamphobia, but you're ignoring what context was being discussed and jumping in half way to try to get a "gotcha!" type of post.

    He can easily take it to court, sure. He will also easily lose. You're ignoring the fact that, you know, he stuck his name in big fat letters on the book. He didn't have to bring it into work for people to judge him based on it, and from that extension, also disrupt the workplace.

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by xuros View Post
    Point out the the islamophobic parts.
    Point.

    This is the equivalent of making a comic book titled "The adventures of Oh gee, why! Joe, A true American Citizen!" with this as the titular character.

  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by BuckSparkles View Post
    Need to remember to the left nothing is worse than criticizing islam, even though bashing Christianity is fine.

    It's amazing for a group who claims they stand for women and gays love a religion that hates both.
    This "group" you speak of... are you sure you're not just broadly generalizing?

    The right are all Nazis... see what I just did there?

  19. #139
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BuckSparkles View Post
    Need to remember to the left nothing is worse than criticizing islam, even though bashing Christianity is fine.

    It's amazing for a group who claims they stand for women and gays love a religion that hates both.
    Could be because it's entirely possible to believe in freedom of worship and freedom of choice.

    You know, them things which are supposedly Western values?
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  20. #140
    The Lightbringer Dr Assbandit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by purebalance View Post
    Meanwhile you had black TV shows in the 90s and 2000s where every time there was a white character they were either a buffoon or a villain yet nobody said shit about that. Also stating facts isn't Islamaphobic. That word needs an auto infraction just like with saying libtard. I mean there is no such thing as Islamaphobia. It's people being rational about a religion that is refusing to come into the current age. We all laugh at and condemn Westboro Baptist Church or those little cults of icestuous midwestern Christians and yet you get any Muslim on CNN and they refuse to condemn the ridiculous stuff saying kill the infidels etc. Maybe once Islam comes to 2017 we could discuss calling people Islamaphobic, but until then, it isn't a thing.
    Which is why I quoted it. I'm not a fan of the word but I'm not sure how else to refer to people who dismiss anything I might have to say at the mere sight of a brownish skinned ethnic looking dude with an Arabic name. If you check my comment history I myself have called out unsavory parts of my own religion and I have to say you're wrong on Muslims not condemning the stuff you mentioned as I can prove you wrong with a ridiculous amounts of sources. It just either gets downed out or is even outright ignored by conservative leaning media but nevertheless, give me an example of a tragedy that happened at the hands of extremist Muslims and I'll drown you in sources condemning those acts by other Muslims.

    Another thing, your perception also seems to lean to the popular but misguided belief that Muslims aren't coming into the current age. May I ask why you think the vast majority of us are still stuck in the past?
    "It's time to kick ass and chew bubblegum... and I'm all outta ass."

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