Three British men to be caned for sexual assault of woman in Singapore

[Socialhealer]

Being an educated, civilised human being is about aspiring to be better than our worst instincts. Society and law don't just need to appeal to the baser elements of our monkey brain while ignoring humanity and reason.

and locking people away for 20+ hours a day only to interact with other criminals and the only way of life they know is crime because they have no-one else, is far more humane? they always come out of prison as a well rounded decent human being don't they, much better than caning?

i'm not saying one method is better im saying both aren't nice be it mental or physical punishment but it is a punishment, i know they get caning and prison, but if i had a choice i'd rather be caned over years of mental torture being stuck in a prison.

[Pannonian]

A few points:

1. It's always a good idea to inform oneself about local rules and laws. I despise any kind of authoritarian rule, but i wont travel to Malaysia, insult their King, then feign ignorance.

2. These people are obviously shit.

3. I despise corporal and humiliating punishments. Western society deemed them inhumane and i think they got that one right.

Yeah, not knowing is their problem, they should receive some sort of punishment, but i cannot agree with that.

[Thoughtcrime]

and locking people away for 20+ hours a day only to interact with other criminals and the only way of life they know is crime because they have no-one else, is far more humane? they always come out of prison as a well rounded decent human being don't they, much better than caning?

Failings in the penal system of some countries are not justification for torture. Yes, prisons can be; and were originally invented just to be used as punishment or a place to keep someone before you chop their head off but that is not what they are anymore in developed countries. There are plenty of places in the world that provide solid models for prisons that provide greater results than just locking people up and throwing away the key. Prison needs to be more than punishment otherwise it's just like any other form of torture. That prison can provide other services to justice is why it's preferable.

I have a friend that turned his life around in prison. In his early twenties he was a thug that couldn't handle his drink and would go out at night looking for people and any reason to start a fight. Being a big bloke he put a lot of people in hospital with broken jaws, arms, ribs - he even made one guy deaf in one ear with a punch to the side of the head. He knew the law, and he did those things anyway until he was caught and put in prison for 5 years.

There he learned a trade, he learned how to box and developed his confidence and fitness (he was obese when he went in). Now he's married with a lovely wife and young family, he has a good job, he pays his taxes, he pays compensation to the victims of his crimes and has apologised in person to those who felt comfortable meeting him, and with letters to the rest. In all respects I would say he is in the process of repaying his debt to society and then some, and society has benefited by turning a criminal thug into a productive human being.

How would that same story go if we just thrashed him on the ass with a stick?

[Tenris]

While you are in a country you are governed by it's laws and punishments, and let's face it rape is illegal pretty much everywhere.

My father in law lives in Singapore (British national) and they do have some weird laws and punishments. The punishments are all incredibly harsh, for example its 1000 dollar fine for not flushing a public toilet. The crime is incredibly low so something they are doing is right.

[Machismo]

On the entire first page, it's as if nobody bothered to actually read. It proves how ignorant our society is.

[Queen of Hamsters]

Caning + Jailtime, where's the issue?

[shadowmouse]

Here is a report on the damage inflicted by caning. Note that this report is on caning in Malaysia, but as far as I can determine caning in Singapore would produce similar results: http://www.univie.ac.at/bimtor/datei...o_humanity.pdf

Due to the physical pain caused by the cane, as well as intense fear, victims may lose control over their urinary and bowel functions. “I urinated after the first stroke because of the pain. It was unbearable,” said Ismail, a Malaysian caned in 1989. “Even faeces and urine came out,” said Nik Hazan, a 27-year-old Malaysian caned for drug possession. “People were screaming, crying, calling for their mothers and fathers.” This loss of continence furthercompounds the victim’s degradation.

Loss of consciousness is another common effect of caning. Lam No, a 23-year-old Burmese refugee arrested in the Cameron Highlands and caned in July 2008 at Sungai Pateni Prison
with a group of 15 prisoners, said: “Two or three of us lost consciousness after two strokes. I was blinded by the pain.” When a victim loses conscious, officials halt the caning. “I fainted. They waited until I came to,” said Alex, a 33-year-old Indonesian migrant. “The pain was so bad it went to my head. I fainted again after the second one.” According to Dr Nisha, a physician who attended victims at a caning session, this fainting results from neurogenic shock, or a loss of nerve signals to muscle caused by trauma. The caning is not terminated after a victim loses consciousness, however. It is merely interrupted. At this point, medical personnel play a direct role in the process. To revive the victim, a doctor will order a bucket of water to be thrown over his head. The doctor fails to fulfil his obligation to treat the victim’s injury or trauma. Instead, the doctor ensures, then certifies that the victim is conscious, and thereby authorizes the caning officer to inflict even more
injury.

EFFECTS ON THE BODY
When he whips the cane into the victim’s buttocks, the caning officer inflicts a deep wound. Afterwards, when dragging the tip of the cane across the wound, he lacerates the skin. In the
double gesture, the cane both crushes and tears the flesh.

“At first it bruised, then it cut,” said Ahmad Faisal, a Malaysian heroin user who received five strokes. “When it gets beyond five, the flesh disintegrates,” he said. Victims from a range of
prisons told Amnesty International that caning officers apply strokes in a uniform pattern. The first three are delivered in parallel stripes across the buttocks. Any subsequent strokes
are delivered on top on these. The task of inscribing the prisoner’s body with such precision may be challenging, however, given that the caning officer delivers the strokes from a distance of around two metres. “I couldn’t even handle just one stroke alone,” said Rasdi, a 34-year-old Indonesian migrant caned in 2010, who explained that he collapsed after the first one. “Both of my strokes were
in the same place.” Each additional stroke compounds the damage to the victim’s body. Subramanian, a 43-year-old Malaysian drug user, spoke of the canings he had witnessed of prisoners sentenced for serious criminal cases, such as “376” (Section 376 is the punishment for rape in the Penal Code). “When it’s five strokes, ten strokes, they really lose their ass ,” he said. “Their flesh
looks like a bowl.”

Read the whole thing.

[ls-]

Here is a report on the damage inflicted by caning. Note that this report is on caning in Malaysia, but as far as I can determine caning in Singapore would produce similar results: http://www.univie.ac.at/bimtor/datei...o_humanity.pdf



Read the whole thing.

How do you feel about capital punishment we have in China? Shooting in particular.

[Thoughtcrime]

Here is a report on the damage inflicted by caning. Note that this report is on caning in Malaysia, but as far as I can determine caning in Singapore would produce similar results: http://www.univie.ac.at/bimtor/datei...o_humanity.pdf



Read the whole thing.

Yeah, I think when people in countries that don't have caning try to defend it they have in their mind an image of a British head teacher in the 40's giving a couple of kids a rap on the palm or ass. Caning as a form of corporal punishment administered in these countries is fucking brutal.

[Flarelaine]

This is why courts appoint counselling. It provides proven and better cathartic results than having the villagers stand in a circle and stone a person.

It is obviously the more civilised way. But at the community level - the community binding, reaffirming and whatnot level, where we haven't uncovered half the mechanisms yet - the caning ritual may actually function better. It's guesswork, really, and I'm not supporting it, I'm just trying to point out what may be going on that still keeps caning on the books. But it seems to me that with caning, the victim gets instant reassurance that the community stands with them - always a great concern in rape cases! - and the perpetrator gets instant reassurance the community does not. If you consider all the controversy around rape recently, Western treatment of rape is missing those two elements badly. Caning is not the way we should go, but we should find the means to take a stand with the victim as a society, not just as a collection of individuals.

[Sunseeker]

While I am against such physical punishments, they knew the law of the country they were going to, and still did the crime. So I don't feel bad for them one lick.

[Shakari]

So beating defenseless people up is okay? You think it's a sane strategy to fight crime with crime? The state has to be better than that. Every constitution worth the paper has abandoned physical punishment for a reason.

Yes they have, and after doing so those societies have certainly not improved for it .....

You think raping a woman, the pain and humilation is acceptable... nothing with take that away or make it better for the victim.

And its not fighting crime with crime ... its fighting crime with legal punishment in this case... don't twist the comments to fit your own moral bias.

[Seditian]

I live in Thailand atm, I see tourists committing crimes and getting in trouble nearly every day here. People think that they're better than locals, that they can get away w/ it or that they get out of country sooner than anything serious starts. Some people are just dumb.

Goes the other way around as well. Locals exploiting tourists, and not just for their money.

[shadowmouse]

How do you feel about capital punishment we have in China? Shooting in particular.

I'm generally against capital punishment, but I think it is more fair than keeping a person in prison for 30+ years. Countries that use very long term incarceration to avoid the guilt from flat out killing a person are -- to my mind -- not on significantly higher moral ground.

I was under the impression that China had largely shifted to using lethal injection, but with the growing questions about lethal injection I can't say that shooting is necessarily worse.

Another thread brought up organ harvesting. I have mixed feelings on that. I feel that it is certainly open to horrific abuse, and in the wake of the Bo Xilai scandal there were indications that at least at local levels there may have been horrific abuse. More broadly, if a person is going to be killed by the state, and matters are otherwise kept neutral, then it is probably better to to harvest organs to do some good than to simply cremate them. It is the ease with which this could be abused that I see as the greatest problem.

[PosPosPos]

Pretty sure that deriving pleasure from someone else their pain is psychopathic.

It's really not. Please stop using terms you don't know the definitions of.

Right, because humans are sooo different, all these different races that react toooootally different to every situation. /s if it wasn't really obvious.

Due to culture, due to different mindsets, yes. Still waiting for you to explain why our crime/recidivism rates are so much lower than the US if being punitive is supposed to be detrimental to the two.

Compensating with monetary means can derive pleasure from the monetary means, but not from the pain others suffer, that is psychopathic. Their transgressors being traumatized too doesn't help them in any way. And if you call this logic then i suggest you take up a course in logic, because this has none.

Again, you are inventing definitions for words you don't know the meaning of. I suggest you read up the definition of psychopathy, under the DSM 5 with the various available online scholarly articles, because it seems you are lacking in sufficient knowledge to continue responding on this subject, yet you are here gish-galloping.

No you have not, you just throw some crap at the wall and hope something sticks, corporal punishment is indefensible. To bring physical pain to others is wrong, if you can not understand this simple concept then i don't know what to tell you.

Because you decided so? While being in the minority doesn't necessarily mean you are wrong, it doesn't give you a free card at being right either.

- - - Updated - - -

My argument was that it was pointless in the context of justice. Don't be deliberately obtuse.

Oh really? You arbitrarily deciding what is "pointless" and not, and the fact that such a concept is clearly subjective would lend perfect relevance to your admittance that your argument was indeed "too stupid to dignify".

Because history says so, and because the laws in developed nations say so. They're abolished for a reason, governments don't do those things in Europe and haven't done them for decades in some places, and hundreds of years in others.

Only if you rewrote history to ignore that corporal punishment was used all throughout it. There are always people who refrain from that, but that in itself doesn't lend any credence whatsoever that withholding corporal punishment has benefits or otherwise.

You are simply getting carried away appealing to some bizarre authority.

I'll repeat myself. Caning is just torture as punishment that appeals to sadists. It might make the victim and people watching on youtube feel better if they're a sadistic savage or an imbecile but that's about it. Prisons serve justice in the form of punishment by isolating perpetrators from society while they work off their debt to society and as a place of rehabilitation so that they can rejoin society as productive members. If prison is punishment, applies to everyone equally, isolates criminals from society, provides a means to repay society, and rehabilitates offenders what was the point in torturing them?

Oh the usual "if you lack justification just dehumanize other people who disagree with you or whom you simply dislike" tactic. The same dehumanization tactic used by Nazis to justify their treatment of Jews and whoever they found unsightly. Call them all sorts of names, make ridiculous strawmen, label them as "evil".

In this case, let's call people who simply enjoy criminals who get their just deserts "sadists", as if the enjoyment makes a difference when justice is served either way.

Speak to a counsellor, that's their job. You don't need to torture people to make yourself feel better.

Is there a need not to use corporal punishment? I love the way you twist perfectly okay actions to make them seem more "evil" just to seem like you have the higher moral pedestal, btw.

Why aren't places with corporal punishment the safest places on Earth then? The reverse is usually closer to the truth. Any impact it has on crime rates is proportional to appropriate prison sentences, and again; prison serves multiple purposes in the administration of justice while torture does not.

Yeah Singapore is so damn dangerous. *cues in some of the lowest violent crime rates in conjunction with one of the most punitive systems in the world*

As above, history and law in developed nations say so.

Uh huh, which means Singapore is the proof that corporal punishment works?

[Thoughtcrime]

It is obviously the more civilised way. But at the community level - the community binding, reaffirming and whatnot level, where we haven't uncovered half the mechanisms yet - the caning ritual may actually function better. It's guesswork, really, and I'm not supporting it, I'm just trying to point out what may be going on that still keeps caning on the books. But it seems to me that with caning, the victim gets instant reassurance that the community stands with them - always a great concern in rape cases! - and the perpetrator gets instant reassurance the community does not. If you consider all the controversy around rape recently, Western treatment of rape is missing those two elements badly. Caning is not the way we should go, but we should find the means to take a stand with the victim as a society, not just as a collection of individuals.

Yeah I get that you're not saying it's right but I don't buy into any justification for it and I guess I never will. Corporal punishment is, as I've said before the most basic and instinctual answer to the question of justice. Which is acceptable if people are willing to accept that they're nothing more than mindless animals. You steal from me, I cut off your hand. You kill my friend, I cut off your head. You hurt me, I hurt you. Eye for an eye. I'm not saying it doesn't get any results, but we are human beings, with intelligence, reason and emotions and we have better options, that get better results that aren't as primitive and don't debase human beings to animals, whether they're inflicting, receiving it or liking on facebook.

Caning is a perfect example, it was introduced to these countries and used during colonial rule specifically because it's a severe form of punishment that was originally reserved for teaching animals and slaves who was in charge and that the person being flogged was little more than a subhuman beast. It's repulsive.

Whatever reasons there may be for hanging on to it, and I'm sure there are some, misguided though they may be, it doesn't change the fact that it's a disgusting and barbaric practice that should be resigned to the dark days of the past along with all other forms of torture that have already been long ago by most countries.

[Heladys]

Caning is too good for them.

[pateuvasiliu]

fear of punishment isn't great enough, that's why people commit more crimes.

this should also be coupled with programs that help ex-cons once they leave jail, so they don't feel desperation or anything, leading to committing more crime out of fear or the perceived need to survive.

- - - Updated - - -



ugh, then 40 lashes every two days.

people are too fragile.

I'm more worried about people like you being free than rapists. You're going to go nuts ( nutter? ) and kill someone one day.

Torturing prisoners ain't normal. Jail is meant to rehabilitate you. If you beat them you make them worse.

[Shadowferal]

It's all about assessing and delivering an appropriate punishment.
I've little problem with caning a rapist. That such felons are being given a prison sentence as well seems fair enough.

[Thoughtcrime]

It's really not. Please stop using terms you don't know the definitions of.






Due to culture, due to different mindsets, yes. Still waiting for you to explain why our crime/recidivism rates are so much lower than the US if being punitive is supposed to be detrimental to the two.




Again, you are inventing definitions for words you don't know the meaning of. I suggest you read up the definition of psychopathy, under the DSM 5 with the various available online scholarly articles, because it seems you are lacking in sufficient knowledge to continue responding on this subject, yet you are here gish-galloping.




Because you decided so? While being in the minority doesn't necessarily mean you are wrong, it doesn't give you a free card at being right either.

- - - Updated - - -



Oh really? You arbitrarily deciding what is "pointless" and not, and the fact that such a concept is clearly subjective would lend perfect relevance to your admittance that your argument was indeed "too stupid to dignify".



Only if you rewrote history to ignore that corporal punishment was used all throughout it. There are always people who refrain from that, but that in itself doesn't lend any credence whatsoever that withholding corporal punishment has benefits or otherwise.

You are simply getting carried away appealing to some bizarre authority.




Oh the usual "if you lack justification just dehumanize other people who disagree with you or whom you simply dislike" tactic. The same dehumanization tactic used by Nazis to justify their treatment of Jews and whoever they found unsightly. Call them all sorts of names, make ridiculous strawmen, label them as "evil".

In this case, let's call people who simply enjoy criminals who get their just deserts "sadists", as if the enjoyment makes a difference when justice is served either way.




Is there a need not to use corporal punishment? I love the way you twist perfectly okay actions to make them seem more "evil" just to seem like you have the higher moral pedestal, btw.



Yeah Singapore is so damn dangerous. *cues in some of the lowest violent crime rates in conjunction with one of the most punitive systems in the world*



Uh huh, which means Singapore is the proof that corporal punishment works?

You know, I started writing out a long thought out rebuttal to this nonsense but one of the reasons why this kind of stupidity is rife is because it's really easy. It takes a lot of effort to explain exactly why almost everything you said is wrong headed and garbage and you're just not worth it because it wouldn't change anything. I've already said all I wanted to say, so like, keep on caning asses bruh.