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  1. #601
    Banned A dot Ham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SherriMayim View Post
    In context of the discussion, Gaming, which is a form of Entertainment, Movies would be a comparable genre to make a point.

    In the previous statement it was that diversity put out more creative output than a lack there of.

    Now funny enough, Cars and Nuclear Fusion were mainly developed by White Guys. Funny huh?

    Oh man oh man, CEO for Lucasfilm as of current, sure a woman. But creator of Star Wars, George Lucas, White Guy, the art director for Star Wars, Ralph McQuarrie, White Guy.

    My point is that a creative output of entertainment or any other creative task, does not hinge on a racial diversity as much as the necessity for a creative mind and hard work.

    Thanks for proving my point though that White Guys can be creative on their own though!


    Now here's a FUNNY thing about SJW's who have to skew reality to make a point. Doug Chiang, a Minority, must have some grand overarching position at Lucasfilm to prove your point.


    HOKAY. Facts time!


    You claim that Doug Chiang was as influential as Ralph McQuarrie, has served as...



    Doug Chiang joined ILM as a creative director in 1989.

    He has a great resume under his belt, Forrest Gump, The Mask, Jumanji, Terminator 2, oh.. and Star Wars Episode 1.

    Basically his job was providing visual effects and animation for a film. Also known as, that HILARIOUS Jar Jar Binks!





    Although I don't see anything with Episode 2 on IMDB. Either way. He left Lucasfilm prior to Episode 3 which came out in 2005, he was gone before that time.

    He left in 2000 to found DC Studios - Source

    Creative Director? Check.

    Design Director? Check.

    Vice President? Executive Creative Director? 2013 to now.



    It's an impressive resume but as influential as Ralph McQuarrie?

    Lets get this straight.

    Doug Chiang came in to a completed project with a well detailed universe with backstory and plenty of material to go on.

    Ralph McQuarrie created everything that Doug Chiang drew from.

    There wasn't an 'X-Wing' Model. There wasn't a 'Darth Vader' costume.

    Ralph McQuarrie pulled from descriptions that Lucas gave him and CREATED the visualizations of which they played with.

    Now we can go on and on about how art is subjective and is it harder to create something from nothing or is it more difficult to add an independent flair into a well known universe.

    That is subjective.

    But if you want to even debate that Doug Chiang is within a stone's throw of Ralph McQuarrie in terms of influence in one of the most popular franchises to ever hit the world stage. You're going to have to have to come at me with more than half-truths and skewed facts.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Honestly you should have bowed out long ago before stepping to anyone with vague knowledge of the Star Wars Universe ... or at least be internet savvy enough to know how to use Google before throwing out easily fact-checked statements.

    But then again I've never known the SJW crowd to adhere to fact based reality.
    You really have problem with reading comprehension don't you.

    Quote Originally Posted by A dot Ham View Post

    In general a more diverse workforce produces more unique, creative, and innovative ideas (different backgrounds working together... whodda thunk?)
    But fuck what do I know lets defer to the no name who seems to know it all about successful white males without the influence of diverse sources.

    Blizzard is specifically targeting women and minorities because they want a dull, bland, boring, and cliche product. Not at all because every creative and thriving business right now is focusing and benefiting from a diverse workforce. Or maybe its just popular and trendy to do so and Blizzard is just looking for an "adda boy from the SJW community"

    Literally all of the management and team building literature and studies out there right now point to workplace diversification as the NUMBER 1 driver for success. You'd think someone who self proclaims to be so proficient in using a Google search engine would be able to do a cursory glance.


    Doug Chiang
    https://www.linkedin.com/in/doug-chiang-86ab0b2a
    Working off and on for ILM and Lucasfilm since 1989 for almost 30 years. He has been involved in more Star Wars creation than McQuarrie. Visionary vs continuing the vision... debatable.

    Here's a fun video for your little jab at Jar Jar... given the green light/rubber stamp by your deified George Lucas. @0:25

    When George Lucas says jump, you say how high. When he says make a goofy fucking character everyone will hate...


    SJW... *looks around* oh you're talking to me. That reading comprehension is really gonna bite you someday.

    Quote Originally Posted by A dot Ham View Post
    Bullshit, bullshit, bullshit to nth degree.

    Do you have ANY data to support you load of crap?

    Tech industries (which include game devs) have a shortage of qualified people. It isn't that Blizzard or anyone else has targeted white males to fill positions, that's just the people that are predominantly interested.

    Blizzard's initiative is to target women and minorities prior to their college years to set them on a career path so that they are qualified when they apply. Which is COMPLETELY different from the bullshit lies you are trying to spread about the industry purposely discriminating and excluding women and minorities.
    Ya that totally looks like someone with a social agenda.

    Why don't you go crawl back into your hole...

    Not sure exactly what I said that compelled you to oust yourself as a misogynist and racist... but kudos to you for having the courage given recent events. Your day has come though I'm afraid.
    Last edited by A dot Ham; 2017-08-16 at 10:38 PM.

  2. #602
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    We'll see next year if this is supporting or shoving.

    And if it is supporting, I wonder why they need it.
    Last edited by docterfreeze; 2017-08-16 at 10:55 PM.

  3. #603
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    Quote Originally Posted by A dot Ham View Post
    You really have problem with reading comprehension don't you.
    This is coming from the person who claims.

    Doug Chiang
    https://www.linkedin.com/in/doug-chiang-86ab0b2a
    Working off and on for ILM and Lucasfilm since 1989 for almost 30 years. He has been involved in more Star Wars creation than McQuarrie.

    When a simple look at his involvement of Star Wars creation is:

    Star Wars Phantom Menace - Creative Director aka Visionary Effects
    Star Wars Attack of the Clones - Not listed on IMDB
    Star Wars Force Awakens - Concept Artist


    Ralph McQuarrie

    Star Wars: Episode V - The Empire Strikes Back (matte artist: miniature and optical effects unit)
    1977 Star Wars: Episode IV - A New Hope (planet and satellite artist: miniature and optical effects unit)
    Star Wars: Episode VI - Return of the Jedi (conceptual artist)
    1980 Star Wars: Episode V - The Empire Strikes Back (design consultant and conceptual artist)
    1978 The Star Wars Holiday Special (TV Movie) (illustrator)
    1977 Star Wars: Episode IV - A New Hope (production illustrator)

    Ralph McQuarrie did more in 4 years with Star Wars than Doug Chiang did in most people's professional careers.

    You're obviously unable to read or cite any sources to back up your statements and instead seem to only be able retort with ad hominem, good day.

  4. #604
    Blizzard should aim at making awesome games that everybody enjoys. Whther they are being developed by white men, black women or cobolds with candles taped to their foreheads is irrelevant - if a person is qualified for the job, he, she or they (whichever pronouns they prefer) should have the job. That's equality.
    В предчувствии движения племен,
    Разломов тверди и кончины мира
    Пою не то, о чем мечтает лира,
    А имена теней и тень имен.

  5. #605
    Quote Originally Posted by Schnulzenbarde View Post
    No, it isnt, as it is not about a quota, but about supporting additional education for woman who are willing to learn a job in the industry. It willl take quite some time before the role ideas of the last century are banned from the heads of society.

    It took humanity up to the 21st century to question the idea men are more appropriate for IT jobs than woman. And even now the reactionary ideas of the last century try to stay alive and show their ugly fact in form of right wing populism, while they died in the 20th century.
    If they require additional education over someone who doesn't need it, should they be hired? Probably not. What we should be doing is getting these people interested in the field at an earlier age, so there is more applicants of the desired gender/race. Of course a field will be dominated by white males when the people majoring in that field are white males.

  6. #606
    Quote Originally Posted by Hound Archon View Post
    Blizzard should aim at making awesome games that everybody enjoys. Whther they are being developed by white men, black women or cobolds with candles taped to their foreheads is irrelevant - if a person is qualified for the job, he, she or they (whichever pronouns they prefer) should have the job. That's equality.
    Not everyone "qualified" will get the job. There is only a handful of jobs and thousands of qualified people. If you are hiring and you find two candidates who are about equal in qualifications, you choose the minority/female candidate because it will make the workplace more diverse and there is value in a diverse workplace.

    If white people are the minority in the specific workplace then higher white people. I don't think this is the case in most studios.
    "I pulled up to moonglade about 7 or 8
    and yelled to the trainer "yo resto cya."
    Looked at my talent tree, i was finally there.
    To go to Karazhan and tank in dire bear."
    -Yarma

  7. #607
    Banned A dot Ham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SherriMayim View Post
    This is coming from the person who claims.




    When a simple look at his involvement of Star Wars creation is:

    Star Wars Phantom Menace - Creative Director aka Visionary Effects
    Star Wars Attack of the Clones - Not listed on IMDB
    Star Wars Force Awakens - Concept Artist


    Ralph McQuarrie

    Star Wars: Episode V - The Empire Strikes Back (matte artist: miniature and optical effects unit)
    1977 Star Wars: Episode IV - A New Hope (planet and satellite artist: miniature and optical effects unit)
    Star Wars: Episode VI - Return of the Jedi (conceptual artist)
    1980 Star Wars: Episode V - The Empire Strikes Back (design consultant and conceptual artist)
    1978 The Star Wars Holiday Special (TV Movie) (illustrator)
    1977 Star Wars: Episode IV - A New Hope (production illustrator)

    Ralph McQuarrie did more in 4 years with Star Wars than Doug Chiang did in most people's professional careers.

    You're obviously unable to read or cite any sources to back up your statements and instead seem to only be able retort with ad hominem, good day.
    "Ad hominem"

    Oh good so you're familiar with logical fallacies. Because your responses here are riddled with them. Like strawman? Like how its easier (according to you) to try and prove that Star Wars is better without diversity, then it is to disprove the prevailing theory that diversity is better for workplace environment, productivity, creativity and innovation. Except that even Star Wars and those running the show have picked up on and value what a commitment to diversity can do for the company and the product(s)/service(s) it can provide.

    The very fact that you can be triggered by someone making the claim that in general a more diverse workforce produces more unique, creative, and innovative ideas, says quite a lot about you. Does it definitively oust you as a racist? No. But one does question why that sets you off so.

    Next your choice of Star Wars as the culmination of creativity for the last century. To have such a high opinion of a film one must certainly be a fan, dare I say fanboy? The self-proclaimed "true fans" had significant issues with the lead role in TFA being portrayed by a woman, and when that same group saw Finn remove his helmet revealing he was black... they lost their minds. Was that you? Again not definitively but couple that with your need to contest my diversity claim, your fondness over the product of a "plethora of white guys", and now your need to prove that a specific white man, is better than an asian man of similar position/standing.
    Quote Originally Posted by SherriMayim View Post
    Star Wars is one of the most inventive, if not THE most influential product of human creativity in the past 100 years.
    ...And that was spearheaded by a plethora of straight white guys.
    Now lets address your cherry picked list of contributions.

    First, you don't get to list a movie twice for credits/roles... seriously? LOL. I mean like TOP KEKs my office is having a good laugh at your expense, and throwing in the Holiday Special... that was good literally brought me to tears with laughter.

    https://www.linkedin.com/in/doug-chiang-86ab0b2a
    2013 – Present (4 years)
    1995 – 2002 (7 years)

    That's 11 years. Which doesn't include his work at ILM the production company founded by George Lucas.

    If you start with the first day of production of A new hope in 1976 and go to the release of Return of the Jedi in 1983 that's only 7 years for McQuarrie, and that's assuming he was working on Star Wars that entire time. Don't nitpick years here mmmkay... it safe to say his concept art began before 1976, but then his involvement in Jedi probably ended before its actual release in 1983... so there is give on both ends.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doug_Chiang - Includes work on TFA AND Rogue One
    http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0156956/ - Doesn't include his work on Episode II
    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Doug_Chiang - Doesn't include anything from TFA (but does show some work on video games)

    Also being Vice President at Lucasfilm (according to his Linkedin profile) he without a doubt has some level of involvement of any and all projects concerning Star Wars since 2013.
    That list ALONE would include:
    Star Wars: The Clone Wars (Which ended in 2014)
    Star Wars Rebels
    Star Wars Episode VII
    Rogue One: A Star Wars story
    Star Wars Episode VIII (releasing in December)
    Any pre-production for episode IX
    Any pre-production for the Han Solo movie

    I never actually said that I thought Doug Chiang was a "better" artist. I have McQuarrie reprints all over my office. Doug Chiang has said in interviews that after seeing Star Wars in his teens, he wanted to be like McQuarrie, mirrored his style... and points to him as his number one influence in his career and art education. Which is probably why Doug is where he is now. So could you make the argument that McQuarrie is STILL influencing Star Wars through Doug his unofficial pupil... absolutely. But in the end, it is still Chiang doing the work. Ultimately his vision, his designs have shaped what Star Wars is TODAY, through more products than McQuarrie had/did. So one could also argue that Chiang has influenced (been more influential) more of the Star Wars galaxy than McQuarrie.

    In the end though your argument devolves into white v. everything else. You NEED to have a white champion in this argument to prove that diversity is bullcrap. You're wrong I'm afraid, and your little strawman tirade doesn't even support your position.

    Are we done?
    Last edited by A dot Ham; 2017-08-17 at 05:00 PM.

  8. #608
    The Patient SherriMayim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by A dot Ham View Post
    "Ad hominem"

    Oh good so you're familiar with logical fallacies. Because your responses here are riddled with them. Like strawman?
    Right. Providing evidence to my point is a Strawman argument, good example.


    Like how its easier (according to you) to try and prove that Star Wars is better without diversity, then it is to disprove the prevailing theory that diversity is better for workplace environment, productivity, creativity and innovation. Except that even Star Wars and those running the show have picked up on and value what a commitment to diversity can do for the company and the product(s)/service(s) it can provide.
    You misunderstand my stance on the issue. I have never said that Star Wars is better without diversity, I have said that being a creator, an artist, an innovator, does not REQUIRE diversity. My evidence pointing to that fact is Star Wars, a movie that was created and developed by primarily one group of people with minimal deviations from the standard of Straight White Male.


    Quote Originally Posted by A dot Ham View Post
    The very fact that you can be triggered by someone making the claim that in general a more diverse workforce produces more unique, creative, and innovative ideas, says quite a lot about you. Does it definitively oust you as a racist? No. But one does question why that sets you off so.
    Oh hey look. It's someone calling another person racist to try and divert the debate at hand. How innovative.

    Quote Originally Posted by A dot Ham View Post
    Next your choice of Star Wars as the culmination of creativity for the last century. To have such a high opinion of a film one must certainly be a fan, dare I say fanboy? The self-proclaimed "true fans" had significant issues with the lead role in TFA being portrayed by a woman, and when that same group saw Finn remove his helmet revealing he was black... they lost their minds. Was that you? Again not definitively but couple that with your need to contest my diversity claim, your fondness over the product of a "plethora of white guys", and now your need to prove that a specific white man, is better than an asian man of similar position/standing.
    Was Ralph McQuarrie more influential that Doug Chang because Ralph was white?

    I mean. Somehow your vision seems to be obsessed with a racial worldview, my argument has been that race doesn't play a role in creative output. Your statements seem to involve race at every turn, either by insinuating that I am racist or I have some problem with Asians simply because I don't believe that a more diverse workforce is necessary to produce a great product.

    Let me be clear since you obviously have some sort of issue.

    RACE DOES NOT DICTATE QUALITY OF A PRODUCT. HARD WORK, CREATIVITY, INGENUITY, DICTATE SUCCESS AND QUALITY.

    Now lets address your cherry picked list of contributions.
    Oooh I love cherries.

    First, you don't get to list a movie twice for credits/roles... seriously? LOL. I mean like TOP KEKs my office is having a good laugh at your expense, and throwing in the Holiday Special... that was good literally brought me to tears with laughter.
    To properly judge a person's work you must look at their achievements and their failures. And oh boy, your imaginary friends in an office are laughing? You should get that checked out.

    Now as to listing a Movie twice for credits? Oh hell yeah you can. There are rules and regulations specifically set by numerous Guilds in Hollywood dictating the procedures of working multiple roles on a film. I don't blame you for your ignorance of a work force you're not familiar with, I have no idea what the operating procedures are for a McDonalds. Although I'm sure you could tell me all about it

    However here are the nitty gritty facts.

    A Concept Artist will often pre-date production, this is before a project is even green-lit. A lot of times, specifically with conceptual art, it is done in order to bring a visual to a pitch meeting to help sell a movie. A lot of the time a concept artist will be brought on board prior to a final draft of a script.

    That's why in numerous of the Ralph McQuarrie images you see Luke Skywalker as a girl, or wearing a mask, or Stormtroopers with Lightsabers.

    Now the other thing he did in the Star Wars universe was Visual Effects. Specifically a Matte Artist, this is usually done during the course of filming or Post Production. A Matte Artist will create the artwork that is seen in the majority of shots that are realistically unavailable to shoot in. This is different than concept art because concept art can have a looser feel to it, where as a Matte Artist must be able to portray the background without it being discernible from the actual film footage.

    Again, you and your imaginary friends who are laughing at this have little idea about the industry of which you criticize.

    Moving on...

    https://www.linkedin.com/in/doug-chiang-86ab0b2a
    2013 – Present (4 years)
    1995 – 2002 (7 years)

    That's 11 years. Which doesn't include his work at ILM the production company founded by George Lucas.
    No.. It does.

    Math must be hard for you.

    Doug Chiang's Career


    Experience
    Lucasfilm
    Vice President / Executive Creative Director
    2013 – Present (4 years)

    Executive Vice President
    ImageMovers Digital
    2006 – 2011 (5 years)

    President
    IceBlink Studios
    2002 – 2006 (4 years)

    Lucasfilm
    Design Director
    1995 – 2002 (7 years)

    Creative Director
    Industrial Light and Magic
    1989 – 1995 (6 years)


    ILM - 1989 to 1995
    Lucasfilm 1995 - 2002
    Lucasfilm 2013 - Current. (4)

    so... 17 years. Still shy of that 30 year marker. You seem to be intent on applying credentials to a person who clearly doesn't have it.


    If you start with the first day of production of A new hope in 1976 and go to the release of Return of the Jedi in 1983 that's only 7 years for McQuarrie, and that's assuming he was working on Star Wars that entire time. Don't nitpick years here mmmkay... it safe to say his concept art began before 1976, but then his involvement in Jedi probably ended before its actual release in 1983... so there is give on both ends.
    You seem to be under the impression that Quantity > Quality in an art form.


    Also being Vice President at Lucasfilm (according to his Linkedin profile) he without a doubt has some level of involvement of any and all projects concerning Star Wars since 2013.
    That list ALONE would include:
    Star Wars: The Clone Wars (Which ended in 2014)
    Star Wars Rebels
    Star Wars Episode VII
    Rogue One: A Star Wars story
    Star Wars Episode VIII (releasing in December)
    Any pre-production for episode IX
    Any pre-production for the Han Solo movie
    See, there's that insistence on attributing creative credits where they are applicable.

    Do you have any idea how much work goes into the pre-production of a Film? Of a TV Show that is Animated, which unlike Live TV takes MONTHS and has an overwhelming up front cost due to the fact you pay for animation all up front.

    Do you have any idea how many meetings are involved, story boarding, casting, the over-arcing story between seasons, multiple meetings to ensure continuity?

    I have, and do you know what the Vice President is usually doing? He's running the business of the studio in numbers and contracts. He's not going over the minutiae of a single episode unless he is personally involved in it in some way, and even then it's because he's voicing a character or given some sort of special cameo. The amount of Star Wars properties is so vast and numerous on a year to year basis in terms of development and output, press coverage, public relations, he doesn't have time to ensure the quality of his products on a micro-managing scale. He has to trust that the person he has hired to hire the talent, knows what they're doing.

    Now to say that Doug Chiang isn't involved with Star Wars properties would be a fool's errand, however he is not down in the trenches handling the artistic vision of the individual properties being created.


    I never actually said that I thought Doug Chiang was a "better" artist. I have McQuarrie reprints all over my office.

    ...Better is an intangible concept that varies from perspective. While my opinion might be that Ralph McQuarrie is a better artist it would be as pointless to debate with you about 'better' as it would be for us to say whether or not Chocolate is better than Caramel.

    I'm talking about influence. I'm talking about resonance from action.


    Doug Chiang has said in interviews that after seeing Star Wars in his teens, he wanted to be like McQuarrie, mirrored his style... and points to him as his number one influence in his career and art education. Which is probably why Doug is where he is now. So could you make the argument that McQuarrie is STILL influencing Star Wars through Doug his unofficial pupil... absolutely. But in the end, it is still Chiang doing the work. Ultimately his vision, his designs have shaped what Star Wars is TODAY, through more products than McQuarrie had/did. So one could also argue that Chiang has influenced (been more influential) more of the Star Wars galaxy than McQuarrie.
    Again your points seem to boil down that Quantity > Quality.

    Your stance seems to be this

    Doug Chiang is involved in more projects in Star Wars, therefore he is more influential.
    I'm not going to follow the possible argument that McQuarrie is still influencing Star Wars through Chiang because that's a load of garbage. McQuarrie is still influencing Star Wars...

    Because Ralph McQuarrie is STILL influencing Star Wars

    In the end though your argument devolves into white v. everything else. You NEED to have a white champion in this argument to prove that diversity is bullcrap. You're wrong I'm afraid, and your little strawman tirade doesn't even support your position.
    Diversity is fine. There's nothing wrong with a diverse workplace. But diversity for the sake of diversity does not allow the best to flourish because one person might be of the wrong skin color or ethnicity. Right now that 'Wrong Ethnicity' is White.

    As a person of Jewish heritage, the fact that there could be any 'Wrong Ethnicity' is quite a disturbing thought.



    Are we done?

    Yep, just don't put mustard on my burger
    Last edited by SherriMayim; 2017-08-17 at 07:31 PM.

  9. #609
    Banned A dot Ham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SherriMayim View Post
    Right. Providing evidence to my point is a Strawman argument, good example.




    You misunderstand my stance on the issue. I have never said that Star Wars is better without diversity, I have said that being a creator, an artist, an innovator, does not REQUIRE diversity. My evidence pointing to that fact is Star Wars, a movie that was created and developed by primarily one group of people with minimal deviations from the standard of Straight White Male.




    Oh hey look. It's someone calling another person racist to try and divert the debate at hand. How innovative.



    Was Ralph McQuarrie more influential that Doug Chang because Ralph was white?

    I mean. Somehow your vision seems to be obsessed with a racial worldview, my argument has been that race doesn't play a role in creative output. Your statements seem to involve race at every turn, either by insinuating that I am racist or I have some problem with Asians simply because I don't believe that a more diverse workforce is necessary to produce a great product.

    Let me be clear since you obviously have some sort of issue.

    RACE DOES NOT DICTATE QUALITY OF A PRODUCT. HARD WORK, CREATIVITY, INGENUITY, DICTATE SUCCESS AND QUALITY.



    Oooh I love cherries.



    To properly judge a person's work you must look at their achievements and their failures. And oh boy, your imaginary friends in an office are laughing? You should get that checked out.

    Now as to listing a Movie twice for credits? Oh hell yeah you can. There are rules and regulations specifically set by numerous Guilds in Hollywood dictating the procedures of working multiple roles on a film. I don't blame you for your ignorance of a work force you're not familiar with, I have no idea what the operating procedures are for a McDonalds. Although I'm sure you could tell me all about it

    However here are the nitty gritty facts.

    A Concept Artist will often pre-date production, this is before a project is even green-lit. A lot of times, specifically with conceptual art, it is done in order to bring a visual to a pitch meeting to help sell a movie. A lot of the time a concept artist will be brought on board prior to a final draft of a script.

    That's why in numerous of the Ralph McQuarrie images you see Luke Skywalker as a girl, or wearing a mask, or Stormtroopers with Lightsabers.

    Now the other thing he did in the Star Wars universe was Visual Effects. Specifically a Matte Artist, this is usually done during the course of filming or Post Production. A Matte Artist will create the artwork that is seen in the majority of shots that are realistically unavailable to shoot in. This is different than concept art because concept art can have a looser feel to it, where as a Matte Artist must be able to portray the background without it being discernible from the actual film footage.

    Again, you and your imaginary friends who are laughing at this have little idea about the industry of which you criticize.

    Moving on...



    No.. It does.

    Math must be hard for you.

    Doug Chiang's Career


    Experience
    Lucasfilm
    Vice President / Executive Creative Director
    2013 – Present (4 years)

    Executive Vice President
    ImageMovers Digital
    2006 – 2011 (5 years)

    President
    IceBlink Studios
    2002 – 2006 (4 years)

    Lucasfilm
    Design Director
    1995 – 2002 (7 years)

    Creative Director
    Industrial Light and Magic
    1989 – 1995 (6 years)


    ILM - 1989 to 1995
    Lucasfilm 1995 - 2002
    Lucasfilm 2013 - Current. (4)

    so... 17 years. Still shy of that 30 year marker. You seem to be intent on applying credentials to a person who clearly doesn't have it.




    You seem to be under the impression that Quantity > Quality in an art form.




    See, there's that insistence on attributing creative credits where they are applicable.

    Do you have any idea how much work goes into the pre-production of a Film? Of a TV Show that is Animated, which unlike Live TV takes MONTHS and has an overwhelming up front cost due to the fact you pay for animation all up front.

    Do you have any idea how many meetings are involved, story boarding, casting, the over-arcing story between seasons, multiple meetings to ensure continuity?

    I have, and do you know what the Vice President is usually doing? He's running the business of the studio in numbers and contracts. He's not going over the minutiae of a single episode unless he is personally involved in it in some way, and even then it's because he's voicing a character or given some sort of special cameo. The amount of Star Wars properties is so vast and numerous on a year to year basis in terms of development and output, press coverage, public relations, he doesn't have time to ensure the quality of his products on a micro-managing scale. He has to trust that the person he has hired to hire the talent, knows what they're doing.

    Now to say that Doug Chiang isn't involved with Star Wars properties would be a fool's errand, however he is not down in the trenches handling the artistic vision of the individual properties being created.





    ...Better is an intangible concept that varies from perspective. While my opinion might be that Ralph McQuarrie is a better artist it would be as pointless to debate with you about 'better' as it would be for us to say whether or not Chocolate is better than Caramel.

    I'm talking about influence. I'm talking about resonance from action.




    Again your points seem to boil down that Quantity > Quality.

    Your stance seems to be this



    I'm not going to follow the possible argument that McQuarrie is still influencing Star Wars through Chiang because that's a load of garbage. McQuarrie is still influencing Star Wars...

    Because Ralph McQuarrie is STILL influencing Star Wars



    Diversity is fine. There's nothing wrong with a diverse workplace. But diversity for the sake of diversity does not allow the best to flourish because one person might be of the wrong skin color or ethnicity. Right now that 'Wrong Ethnicity' is White.

    As a person of Jewish heritage, the fact that there could be any 'Wrong Ethnicity' is quite a disturbing thought.





    Yep, just don't put mustard on my burger
    Oh and here I thought you'd have the presence of mind to concede defeat. Instead you seem intent on digging yourself a bigger hole and confirming your misogyny and racism.

    In general...

    Off and on for almost...

    Just a few key phrases you purposely ignore time and time again. You're trolling at this point and have been reported as such. Welcome to my ignore list. A whopping 197 posts in and you have already joined the many other trashy posters on this forum who can manage to write an essay with nothing to say.

    Fight the good fight and keep jobs white! Amirite?

    #boring
    Last edited by A dot Ham; 2017-08-17 at 08:41 PM.

  10. #610
    The Patient SherriMayim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by A dot Ham View Post
    Oh and here I thought you'd have the presence of mind to concede defeat. Instead you seem intent on digging yourself a bigger hole and confirming your misogyny and racism.

    In general...

    Off and on for almost...

    Just a few key phrases you purposely ignore time and time again. You're trolling at this point and have been reported as such. Welcome to my ignore list. A whopping 197 posts in and you have already joined the many other trashy posters on this forum who can manage to write an essay with nothing to say.

    Fight the good fight and keep jobs white! Amirite?

    #boring
    So in the face of cited evidence you get triggered, mad, and decide to go home.

    But the funny part is that when I say that race doesn't dictate skill, it is apparently racist.

    Okay.... O_o



    I mean. If you want you can fact check your own statements.

    They're still wrong. Facts aren't racist. Your ineptitude at being able to cobble an argument together is quite obvious at this point.

    Instead you just throw out racism and misogyny when it's clearly not the case.

    How are your ears not flooded with sand at this point?

  11. #611
    Dreadlord
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eggroll View Post
    I'm not generally applying that to "white males", but you cannot honestly deny that large parts of the world are culturally and economically dominated by caucasian peeps, may it be from Europe or North America. We had our turn in history. What did we bring about? Perfecting mass genocide and environmental destruction? Sure. Maybe it's time to step aside... just saying.
    You can have all the white guilt you want. Donate all your money/possession to BLM for all i care.

    Also where is my white privilege paycheck, it's way past due. If i have to accept a "guilt", then i want those benefits as well.

  12. #612
    Titan Al Gorefiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by A dot Ham View Post
    "Ad hominem"

    Oh good so you're familiar with logical fallacies. Because your responses here are riddled with them. Like strawman? Like how its easier (according to you) to try and prove that Star Wars is better without diversity, then it is to disprove the prevailing theory that diversity is better for workplace environment, productivity, creativity and innovation. Except that even Star Wars and those running the show have picked up on and value what a commitment to diversity can do for the company and the product(s)/service(s) it can provide.

    The very fact that you can be triggered by someone making the claim that in general a more diverse workforce produces more unique, creative, and innovative ideas, says quite a lot about you. Does it definitively oust you as a racist? No. But one does question why that sets you off so.

    Next your choice of Star Wars as the culmination of creativity for the last century. To have such a high opinion of a film one must certainly be a fan, dare I say fanboy? The self-proclaimed "true fans" had significant issues with the lead role in TFA being portrayed by a woman, and when that same group saw Finn remove his helmet revealing he was black... they lost their minds. Was that you? Again not definitively but couple that with your need to contest my diversity claim, your fondness over the product of a "plethora of white guys", and now your need to prove that a specific white man, is better than an asian man of similar position/standing.


    Now lets address your cherry picked list of contributions.

    First, you don't get to list a movie twice for credits/roles... seriously? LOL. I mean like TOP KEKs my office is having a good laugh at your expense, and throwing in the Holiday Special... that was good literally brought me to tears with laughter.

    https://www.linkedin.com/in/doug-chiang-86ab0b2a
    2013 – Present (4 years)
    1995 – 2002 (7 years)

    That's 11 years. Which doesn't include his work at ILM the production company founded by George Lucas.

    If you start with the first day of production of A new hope in 1976 and go to the release of Return of the Jedi in 1983 that's only 7 years for McQuarrie, and that's assuming he was working on Star Wars that entire time. Don't nitpick years here mmmkay... it safe to say his concept art began before 1976, but then his involvement in Jedi probably ended before its actual release in 1983... so there is give on both ends.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doug_Chiang - Includes work on TFA AND Rogue One
    http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0156956/ - Doesn't include his work on Episode II
    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Doug_Chiang - Doesn't include anything from TFA (but does show some work on video games)

    Also being Vice President at Lucasfilm (according to his Linkedin profile) he without a doubt has some level of involvement of any and all projects concerning Star Wars since 2013.
    That list ALONE would include:
    Star Wars: The Clone Wars (Which ended in 2014)
    Star Wars Rebels
    Star Wars Episode VII
    Rogue One: A Star Wars story
    Star Wars Episode VIII (releasing in December)
    Any pre-production for episode IX
    Any pre-production for the Han Solo movie

    I never actually said that I thought Doug Chiang was a "better" artist. I have McQuarrie reprints all over my office. Doug Chiang has said in interviews that after seeing Star Wars in his teens, he wanted to be like McQuarrie, mirrored his style... and points to him as his number one influence in his career and art education. Which is probably why Doug is where he is now. So could you make the argument that McQuarrie is STILL influencing Star Wars through Doug his unofficial pupil... absolutely. But in the end, it is still Chiang doing the work. Ultimately his vision, his designs have shaped what Star Wars is TODAY, through more products than McQuarrie had/did. So one could also argue that Chiang has influenced (been more influential) more of the Star Wars galaxy than McQuarrie.

    In the end though your argument devolves into white v. everything else. You NEED to have a white champion in this argument to prove that diversity is bullcrap. You're wrong I'm afraid, and your little strawman tirade doesn't even support your position.

    Are we done?
    Quote Originally Posted by A dot Ham View Post
    Oh and here I thought you'd have the presence of mind to concede defeat. Instead you seem intent on digging yourself a bigger hole and confirming your misogyny and racism.

    In general...

    Off and on for almost...

    Just a few key phrases you purposely ignore time and time again. You're trolling at this point and have been reported as such. Welcome to my ignore list. A whopping 197 posts in and you have already joined the many other trashy posters on this forum who can manage to write an essay with nothing to say.

    Fight the good fight and keep jobs white! Amirite?

    #boring
    Quote Originally Posted by SherriMayim View Post
    So in the face of cited evidence you get triggered, mad, and decide to go home.

    But the funny part is that when I say that race doesn't dictate skill, it is apparently racist.

    Okay.... O_o



    I mean. If you want you can fact check your own statements.

    They're still wrong. Facts aren't racist. Your ineptitude at being able to cobble an argument together is quite obvious at this point.

    Instead you just throw out racism and misogyny when it's clearly not the case.

    How are your ears not flooded with sand at this point?
    When do you two wake up one day.

    Wake up and realize...

    You are two, likely grown men.

    Arguing on a forum dedicated to Blizzard video games

    About Star Wars.

    And not just Star Wars

    But the directors behind Star Wars.

    You two are literally parodies of internet nerds.

  13. #613
    the prequels were also all spearheaded by white guys... sooo that kinda shoots holes into whatever lead paint eating is happening right now.

  14. #614
    The Patient SherriMayim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Humbugged View Post
    When do you two wake up one day.

    Wake up and realize...

    You are two, likely grown men.

    Arguing on a forum dedicated to Blizzard video games

    About Star Wars.

    And not just Star Wars

    But the directors behind Star Wars.

    You two are literally parodies of internet nerds.
    Part of the joys of being self employed.

  15. #615
    Quote Originally Posted by Noblia View Post
    Affirmative action... is the absolute worst!!! Blizzard is basically saying that if we have equal white male, female, or minority we will FUCK the white guy and hire the latter. Its been happening for the last 40 years... It is not surprising coming from a company like blizzard or any of these tech companies.

    I wonder why no one talks about how there are infinitely more female nurses then men. Or pick your sector of the economy. But when its a white guy job, its like HOLY FUCK! KILL HIM!
    This comment is either from a troll or a terribly uninformed individual. Either way, a good chuckle.

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