[TV/Books] Game of Thrones ***SPOILER Discussion***

[RobertoCarlos]

But it has been like that since the first season. Robert and Ned getting to KL, LF getting his jetpack in season one. The show has always felt chaotic, but it isn´t so much the fault of the writers as much as the fact there were usually 10 different storylines going on at the same time with different characters bumping into each other. I cannot think of another show that had so many groups of people having important but seperate things going on at the same time. I cut them some slack because of the complexity of the story they are trying to tell in 16hrs a year (now 8).

Ok, help with something I missed. Near the end, a guy falls off the rocks and is torn apart. Who was that? Red shirt guy?

What about the stannis arc. Location problems traveling with an army was a huge problem for him.

That guy was just a random wildling red shirt

[Doctor Funkenstein]

On a side note, especially after the Night King's moment of channeling Arthas, this made me laugh:

I hear WoW invented dracoliches, death knights, and undead armies. True story, bruh.

[Azrile]

And yet the series' claim to fame is being unpredictable and defying expectation. Not telegraphing every plot point before it happens.

Being predictable is a complete undermining of the show's fundamental foundation.

Maybe I am dense, but I have no idea what is going to happen with Sansa/Arya/LF. I have no idea. I also have no idea what happens with Dany and Cersi.. how that meeting plays out.. does Tryian betray, does Jaime kill Cersi? How does the reveal happen with Jon being Targarean.. from Sam or Bran? How does that affect anything.. Dany admits he should be king?

[Kathranis]

Robert and Ned getting to KL, LF getting his jetpack in season one.

It took Robert and Ned three episodes to get from Winterfell to King's Landing. In Season 7 a character can go back and forth twice in the span of a single episode.

That's why it's disorienting, and has become more and more disorienting. They also used to do more establishing shots, like I said.

I don't cut any slack with writing. They have a team of writers who spend months in a writers' room. They have every opportunity in the world to create a chart or a timeline and make sense of everything, to plan out all the establishing shots and transitions they'll need to convey the passage of time. And they can all do that before production has started, before the big bucks have been spent. Before storyboarding, even.

Writing is the least demanding, least expensive part of the entire process. For a show with this level of production design, this level of direction, this level of cinematography, this budget, it's an incredible shame that they take easy outs on the writing. And it's a shame that audiences are so willing to ignore inferior writing (and editing) when nearly every other facet of the show is superior.

[Doctor Funkenstein]

That the constant time jumping is universally disorienting to the audience, and has become moreso, is evidence enough of the problem.

Not really. The vast majority of the audience has no problem with it.

Whereas the vast majority of the vast minority who has a problem with it are the same people bitching and whining about how "bad" the story is now that it's gone beyond the confines of the books. For some reason, despite the writers and showrunners knowing all the major story hooks straight from Martin himself, they think they're just making shit up as they go and it's not what was intended. And by "what was intended," they actually mean "what I cooked up in my head."

In other words, it's largely idiotic whining from asshats.

[Azrile]

What about the stannis arc. Location problems traveling with an army was a huge problem for him.

That guy was just a random wildling red shirt

There was a lot about Stannis that I did not like. Agreed.. He seemed to be able to travel just fine north of the wall when he saved Jon, but then after the Black Keep all of a sudden his army couldn´t move while south of the wall. My biggest issue of the entire series was with Ramsey not finding Stannis. As crazy as Ramsey was, there is no way he does not try to find the Stannis... instead he just rides away and goes back to winterfall without even thinking of the enemy king.

[Kathranis]

Maybe I am dense, but I have no idea what is going to happen with Sansa/Arya/LF.

I'll tell you exactly how it will end: Littlefinger will get his comeuppance in a totally ironic way that unites the sisters and calls back to his past actions.

And nobody will ask, "what is Littlefinger trying to gain from this scheme?" Because all that matters to the show is that he needs to be scheming and his scheme needs to backfire. No, seriously. Why is he trying to play Arya against Sansa? What does he stand to gain? It makes no sense. It's just there because they need to justify him being killed.

Oh, and he'll be killed by his own dagger, and they'll probably play that up like it's payback for the attempted murder of Bran, even though Littlefinger never had anything to do with it. The audience's memory is short enough that they'll just accept it at face value and move along.


We seem to have fully entered the realm of fan wish fulfilment from the show. They're going to make the ships happen, they're going to give people the satisfying kills, etc. If any protagonists die, they'll die heroically. If any traitors die, they'll die ironically. That's just what the show seems to be becoming.

[Frontenac]

And yet the series' claim to fame is being unpredictable and defying expectation. Not telegraphing every plot point before it happens.

Being predictable is a complete undermining of the show's fundamental foundation.

If they really want to deliver on the promise of GoT, Jon will never learn of his heritage, Dany will fail to conquer Westeros, and the Night's King will be revealed to be not evil at all. Or at least something like that.

This whole thing has become good versus evil, super generic shit. If they don't fuck with the audience's expectations hard next season, I'll be incredibly disappointed. But I really doubt they'll have the balls to give everyone an unhappy ending.

Of course the Night King isn't evil. He's really an employee of the Lord of Light and his name is Wilkinson. It was all a test!

It's easy to have shades of grey when you are dealing with humans, but it's very hard to present a supernatural being with necromantic powers, who never tells a word, bent on conquering the living, as any other thing than evil. So of course it will be a good vs evil conflict. If it is revealed that the Night King is not truly evil, then yes, you will have your suprise.

But since you're talking about it, maybe you will complain how predictable it was?

[Kathranis]

Not really. The vast majority of the audience has no problem with it.

Whereas the vast majority of the vast minority who has a problem with it are the same people bitching and whining about how "bad" the story is now that it's gone beyond the confines of the books. For some reason, despite the writers and showrunners knowing all the major story hooks straight from Martin himself, they think they're just making shit up as they go and it's not what was intended. And by "what was intended," they actually mean "what I cooked up in my head."

In other words, it's largely idiotic whining from asshats.

The show is only following the broadest of broad strokes from Martin's outlines for future books, and it's super obvious. By their own admission, he only gave them three major twist reveals, one of which was Hodor's name, and another likely the burning of Shireen.

If you think the book is going to follow the same plot as the show, I can only assume you've never actually read the books (and are truly depriving yourself if that's indeed the case), because half the characters in the show aren't even alive in the books, and half the characters in the books never even existed in the show.

How can Stannis burn Shireen alive when she's halfway across the continent from his army? How can Sansa get raped by Ramsay and rescued by Theon when he's already married to Arya Stark? How will Dany march into an empty Dragonstone when it's currently occupied by Aegon Targaryen and his sellsword forces? How will Jaime lead the Lannister forces against Highgarden when he's already betrayed Cersei and is currently with Brienne, Lady Stoneheart, and the Brotherhood Without Banners?

I can go on and on. Yes, some of the broad strokes will be the same, and there will be some parallel plotlines. But there are going to be innumerable differences, and I can guarantee you that the book will tell the superior story, just based on the preview chapters of Winds of Winter alone.

[Azrile]

No, seriously. Why is he trying to play Arya against Sansa? What does he stand to gain?

Chaos is a ladder. it is pretty obvious that he just wants everyone splintered. He doesn´t want a unified Stark Family because then he is less powerful. If he plays Arya and John against Sansa, then his army helping Sansa makes him more important, the Queenmaker and then he just needs to get rid of one person rather than 3. Isn´t that what he did with the Vale to begin with? The more pieces there are, the smaller each piece is, which makes your piece comparatively larger. He didn´t want Joffrey dead, he wanted the Tyrells against the Lannisters, not allied. Break everything apart and create chaos.

[Kathranis]

Of course the Night King isn't evil. He's really an employee of the Lord of Light and his name is Wilkinson. It was all a test!

It's easy to have shades of grey when you are dealing with humans, but it's very hard to present a supernatural being with necromantic powers, who never tells a word, bent on conquering the living, as any other thing than evil. So of course it will be a good vs evil conflict. If it is revealed that the Night King is not truly evil, then yes, you will have your suprise.

But since you're talking about it, maybe you will complain how predictable it was?

In the books the Others are treated with a great deal of ambiguity. The Night's King isn't even a character in the book -- if anything, Euron will likely be the one to fulfil that role. All we really know of the Others so far is that they're "beautiful foreigners," they have their own language, their own culture, and their own reasons for existing. They aren't "evil," they're just "other," and that's almost certainly what Martin intends. He hates the way Tolkien treated good and evil in Lord of the Rings, with evil orcs fighting good humans.

If they do something like that in the show, even clumisly, I'll at least give them props for having the guts to defy genre tropes, which was the whole point behind the novel series to begin with.

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Chaos is a ladder. it is pretty obvious that he just wants everyone splintered. He doesn´t want a unified Stark Family because then he is less powerful. If he plays Arya and John against Sansa, then his army helping Sansa makes him more important, the Queenmaker and then he just needs to get rid of one person rather than 3. Isn´t that what he did with the Vale to begin with? The more pieces there are, the smaller each piece is, which makes your piece comparatively larger. He didn´t want Joffrey dead, he wanted the Tyrells against the Lannisters, not allied. Break everything apart and create chaos.

No, what he did with the Vale was marry the mother of the Lord of the Vale, kill her, convince everyone that she was insane and killed herself, and gain control of their holdings and military by manipulating the boy.

He didn't just randomly turn people against each other to create chaos just for the sake of creating chaos. Everything he did up to that point had a purpose, every step increased his holdings or gained him political influence.

[Azrile]

by manipulating the boy.

Exactly, he did with Robin exactly what he is doing with Sansa. I can´t remember the old guys name, but he set into Robin´s mind that the old guy had betrayed him. He seperates power so it is easier for him to manipulate who he wants to. He took away Robin´s only real advisor. If he takes Arya and Jon away from Sansa, then Sansa will need to rely on him the same way Robin did. My guess would be that as soon as he got Jon and Arya out of the picture, he would get some of the northern houses to no support her.

[RobertoCarlos]

Stop watching then. You sound like a guy who is addicted to wow and does nothing but bitch.

Hes right though.

The writers are selling the make up/costume departments and effects team etc short.

[Kathranis]

Stop watching then. You sound like a guy who is addicted to wow and does nothing but bitch.

It's possible to criticize something without completely hating it. It's possible to have a nuanced and multi-faceted opinion. I recognize the show's merits and its flaws, and one doesn't erase the other.

It's not a zero sum game.

I watch the show for its production design, direction, cinematography, score, and (most of) its cast. I watch it because I like the setting and it's cool to watch dragons breathe fire on zombies.

I criticize the lazy writing because it's disappointing to see what was once a remarkably faithful adaptation with complex, layered, characters and unexpected genre-defying moments turn into, essentially, everything that the original novels set out to be the antithesis of. I criticize because every other aspect of the show is executed at such a high level.

[-aiko-]

It's possible to criticize something without completely hating it. It's possible to have a nuanced and multi-faceted opinion. I recognize the show's merits and its flaws, and one doesn't erase the other.

It's not a zero sum game.

I watch the show for its production design, direction, cinematography, score, and (most of) its cast. I watch it because I like the setting and it's cool to watch dragons breathe fire on zombies.

Yeah, pretty much. Tough love is a thing.

Speaking of the cast, does anyone else feel like Emilia Clarke is improving as an actress? I never thought she was shit, but I always thought she was pretty weak up until this season. Could just be that she has good chemistry with Kit. Even though I am again pretty vehemently against that character pairing. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Kathranis]

In your opinion.

And what's your opinion? That everyone should either love the show and say things like, "I love this show," or hate the show and never watch it or discuss it?

You're a Packers fan, eh? Do you agree with every decision the coach makes? Every play executed by every player? If you disagreed with something they did, how would you feel if I told you to just stop watching them, then? Do you recognize how asinine that is?

[RobertoCarlos]

Speaking of the cast, does anyone else feel like Emilia Clarke is improving as an actress? I never thought she was shit, but I always thought she was pretty weak up until this season. Could just be that she has good chemistry with Kit. Even though I am again pretty vehemently against that character pairing. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Its probably one of her stronger seasons. Shes defiantly a better actress than she was in the beginning and she seems to take to green screen pretty well which she has a lot of this season. She still has weak moments though and can be a bit too rigid or forced

[Kathranis]

Speaking of the cast, does anyone else feel like Emilia Clarke is improving as an actress?

I don't know if she's improving or if they're just giving her a bit more to work with so you're seeing some emotions she hasn't had the opportunity to emote before.

She has her strengths, but she's still easily the weakest part of the cast for me. I especially don't like the choices she makes with, well... her face. I feel like I could post some screencaps of her reactions to Viserion dying and you wouldn't be able to correctly guess what emotion she's trying to convey.

[RobertoCarlos]

I don't know if she's improving or if they're just giving her a bit more to work with so you're seeing some emotions she hasn't had the opportunity to emote before.

She has her strengths, but she's still easily the weakest part of the cast for me. I especially don't like the choices she makes with, well... her face. I feel like I could post some screencaps of her reactions to Viserion dying and you wouldn't be able to correctly guess what emotion she's trying to convey.

Who do you think is the best actor on the show?

[-aiko-]

Come to think of it, the scenes I think she has done well with have largely been the implied romantic ones. Maybe she's just good at uh...'cutesy' emotions?

I felt the same way about her reaction to Viserion's death, and when she was talking to Jon about it at the bedside. I found the shift from her sad voice to her 'stern' voice when she said she was going to kill the NK to be pretty awkward. Maybe they shot those scenes separately, but the transition was super weird and noticeable to me.

P.S why did this show make me so god damn observant of everything? I swear I never used to notice these kinds of things.