Yogg-saron and the World Soul

[Deleted]

Greetings,

so just a short thread here but I was reading some Old God quotes and my attention was drawn to what Yogg says when he 'dies'.

"Your fate is sealed. The end of days is finally upon you and all who inhabit this miserable little seedling. Uulwi ifis halahs gag erh'ongg w'ssh."

'Seedling' is interesting here and it makes me wonder if back in Wrath Blizzard had the idea for the World Souls. Of course 'seedling' could just be poetic language for 'world with life on it' but seeds do of course grow into something. Perhaps Yogg was referring to the soul that would grow into Azeroth the Titan.

Maybe this was the line that gave a developer the idea!

Thoughts?

[Deleted]

Yar, the idea was there.

And after the events of the legion and the way they treated illidan as an anti-hero who sacrificed everything to push the hand of fate when the rest were not prepared i am amazed at how they haven't yet capitalized at the idea of Arthas having a plan to fight and seal away the old god threat starting from northrend with a major huge retcon.

[Combatbutler]

Yar, the idea was there.

And after the events of the legion and the way they treated illidan as an anti-hero who sacrificed everything to push the hand of fate when the rest were not prepared i am amazed at how they haven't yet capitalized at the idea of Arthas having a plan to fight and seal away the old god threat starting from northrend with a major huge retcon.

There is a difference Illidan was somewhat ambiguous and his inner thoughts were rarely portrayed. Arthas on the other hand was in so many novels, stories etc. and we got so many glimpses at him, if they decided to change his narrative they would break just too much of the story in the process.

[Wildmoon]

There is a difference Illidan was somewhat ambiguous and his inner thoughts were rarely portrayed. Arthas on the other hand was in so many novels, stories etc. and we got so many glimpses at him, if they decided to change his narrative they would break just too much of the story in the process.

Illidan's thoughts were clearly portrayed in the trilogy. The novels did get into the actual thoughts of all the main characters.

[Aquamonkey]

'Seedling' is interesting here and it makes me wonder if back in Wrath Blizzard had the idea for the World Souls.

I highly doubt this considering Blizzard's track record for major plot developments... and WoD.

'Maybe this was the line that gave a developer the idea!

This is most likely. Kosak admitted in an interview that they leave plot hooks dangling and intentionally undefined so that someone can come along later and do something with it when they get an idea.

[thesmall001]

Yar, the idea was there.

And after the events of the legion and the way they treated illidan as an anti-hero who sacrificed everything to push the hand of fate when the rest were not prepared i am amazed at how they haven't yet capitalized at the idea of Arthas having a plan to fight and seal away the old god threat starting from northrend with a major huge retcon.

People keep using the term retcon to describe iteration and elaborations made over the years, revealing new details, that challenged or shut down their own head-canon about what would happen. People fill in the blanks, which they have todo sometimes, but then get mad when they get it wrong. But there's plenty of evidence that we're not seeing Lore whipped up on the fly to milk the cow; rather, much of the current story is the result of years of stalling and planning to build up to it.

There's quotes from WC3 that foreshadowed the stuff happening right now. There's quests in Outland that point to everything Illidan planned and stuff we haven't even seen pay-off yet like the Void/Naaru stuff. There's quests from Vanilla that setup much of the Old God lore still unresolved. And, yes, there's plenty of foreshadowing since -at least- Wrath (maybe even Vanilla with Hakkar/ZG) that points to future Undead/Shadowlands stories, which were likely conceived and outlined then, and will soon come to fruition.

As for Arthas/Lich King 2.0? It started as a joke, but I always believed (since Hyjal in Cataclysm) that the story in Zul'drak will play a very important role in the future. Because the Frost Trolls tapped into the same Shadow Ancients that the Gurubashi and Amani and Twilight Cultists all use and I guarantee you that eventually they'll work out as part of some greater Undead/Shadowlands expansion. Not directly Old God related but, yeah, probably tied in somehow with the Undead/Wrath stuff. I think we probably will learn more about the nature of the Lich King and its connection to Undeath and the shadows of the world soul in the future. I think Arthas knew stuff we didn't. I think that'll be revisited and I wouldn't be surprised if we see him or Ner'zhul again in the Shadowlands to provide some exposition.

The 3 main stays of WoW villainy can be broken down into: Void (Old Gods) Death (Shadowlands) and Fel (Demons). Chronicles Vol. 1 confirmed this after years of speculative observation. You can see this genesis in the way they introduced story lines. The setup was:

Classic - Old Gods (OGs were the main new lore introduced [AQ/Darkshore/Ashenvale/Various Dragon Stuff], rest was expanding on already established story.)
TBC - Demons (+Void Intro, +Deathwing Foreshadowing)
Wrath - Undead (+Shadowlands Intro, +Legion Foreshadowing)

The pay off is then:

Cata - Old Gods (Deathwing, Uldum, Elemental Lords [All setup in Classic], +Shadow Ancient foreshadowing in Hyjal & Troll Heroics.)
MoP - More Old Gods (+Refresh the Demon hype, Green Fire Q [...and Metzen just flat-out saying it] foreshadows Illidan's return.)
Filler - Demons (Revisit the nature of Demon & setup Legion's return; mostly just tie-in with the movie, though!)
Legion - Demon Finale (Foreshadow Shadowlands more, Elaborate on the Void stuff.)

So where does that leave us?

#7 ??? - Undead (Following the narrative pattern, it seems obvious to me, it's just the thing we haven't seen in the longest.)
#8 ??? - Old God Finale (+Something we haven't seen yet, let's call them Blorgons)
#9 ??? - Blorgons (+Undead Finale +Azeroth Awakens.)
#10 ??? - Void finale.

There's nothing to say I'm right. I doubt even Blizzard has thought this far ahead in concrete terms. Some are likely dubious as to whether the world will even make it to 2024. It's really just a matter of not hitting the same note more than twice in a row whilst using what's already available to us. It's just like... it's just storytelling.

[clevin]

So where does that leave us?

#7 ??? - Undead (Following the narrative pattern, it seems obvious to me, it's just the thing we haven't seen in the longest.)
#8 ??? - Old God Finale (+Something we haven't seen yet, let's call them Blorgons)
#9 ??? - Blorgons (+Undead Finale +Azeroth Awakens.)
#10 ??? - Void finale.

There's nothing to say I'm right. I doubt even Blizzard has thought this far ahead in concrete terms. Some are likely dubious as to whether the world will even make it to 2024. It's really just a matter of not hitting the same note more than twice in a row whilst using what's already available to us. It's just like... it's just storytelling.

I think that's too much old god stuff. At ~2 years per expansion that'd 8 years of old god/void stuff. And I don't see us doing Lich King 2.0 at least not yet. Retread expansions would be a bad sign for creativity too.

I think more likely we'll see something like this:

7 - N'zoth.
8 - Void/Ethereal threat
9 - Void finale.

The question is what happens with Azshara? With Ethereals?

In there they'll need to start presenting us another credible threat. Lich King is hard - we killed his boss (KJ) and imprisoned his boss' boss (Sargeras). Plus, retread. Same for elemental lords.

[Golden Yak]

Could be!

I was very excited by the whispers in Ulduar making a come back. If Yogg-Saron somehow returns as a threat, I might explode.

[Destinas]

It was speculated years ago (I believe on WoW Insider) that Azeroth was a "baby titan" because of the "seedling" remark. It seems plausible to me that they had the bones of the story they wanted to tell all those years ago, but didn't know how to connect it all until Chronicle.

[Shelly]

There is a difference Illidan was somewhat ambiguous and his inner thoughts were rarely portrayed. Arthas on the other hand was in so many novels, stories etc. and we got so many glimpses at him, if they decided to change his narrative they would break just too much of the story in the process.

If you ever played WC3 you'd see he's not all that ambiguous.

He's played for a fool by the LK to defeat the dreadlords and release the LK from their thrall and return the scourge to his true control.

Then he's bullied by KJ into trying to crack open Azeroth and destroy the frozen throne, when that fails he goes and tries to kill Arthas and gets his butt handed to him.

Then he retreats to Outland and spends his time moping, hiding from KJ and letting Blood Elves take control of his uncaptained empire.

Nothing really ambiguous. He's always been about personal power and avoiding punishment from those stronger.

[killwithpwr]

With Blizzard you never know... It might be that this was their idea from way before they even released WotLK, but it could might as well be a new idea based on their own ambiguity in that specific raid.
That's what used to be good with the old gods, they were so mysterious and made many speculations come out of the community, and some of the development of characters in game relied on their ambiguity

[Combatbutler]

Illidan's thoughts were clearly portrayed in the trilogy. The novels did get into the actual thoughts of all the main characters.

And these thoughts were ambitious, which was the point Illidan was out for power, but in the trilogy he wasn't willing to sacrifice the world "Tyrande" in the process his spell sucked the demons back through the well after all.

- - - Updated - - -

If you ever played WC3 you'd see he's not all that ambiguous.

He's played for a fool by the LK to defeat the dreadlords and release the LK from their thrall and return the scourge to his true control.

Then he's bullied by KJ into trying to crack open Azeroth and destroy the frozen throne, when that fails he goes and tries to kill Arthas and gets his butt handed to him.

Then he retreats to Outland and spends his time moping, hiding from KJ and letting Blood Elves take control of his uncaptained empire.

Nothing really ambiguous. He's always been about personal power and avoiding punishment from those stronger.

He was always powerhungry but even in wcr 3 the destruction of Azeroth was never his game.

[Deleted]

It is well known for Blizzard to plan things years before they use it. Few people trust in this and blame everything to retcons, but they have everything planned. They improvise sometimes, like the whole plot from Garrosh going crazy in Pandaria just to end in Gul'dan calling the legion again. But the main story is well defined, just hinted slowly.

[Wildmoon]

And these thoughts were ambitious, which was the point Illidan was out for power, but in the trilogy he wasn't willing to sacrifice the world "Tyrande" in the process his spell sucked the demons back through the well after all.

The motivation about the actual world and people's lives was never in the trilogy. It was completely clear it was all about himself whether it's joining the legion,the jealousy and his various dark thoughts. He was very selfish but just not world-destroying crazy evil. Xavius did fan the flame of his dark thoughts but it was there in the first place for Xavius to work with. Illidan in Legion seems very genuine about his desire to protect his world and its people which contrasts heavily with with the trilogy and WC3 manual accounts. You could say his death at the baclk temple smacked some sense into him but it's not really a satisfying answer to me.

[Combatbutler]

The motivation about the actual world and people's lives was never in the trilogy. It was completely clear it was all about himself whether it's joining the legion,the jealousy and his various dark thoughts. He was very selfish but just not world-destroying crazy evil. Xavius did fan the flame of his dark thoughts but it was there in the first place for Xavius to work with. Illidan in Legion seems very genuine about his desire to protect his world and its people which contrasts heavily with with the trilogy and WC3 manual accounts. You could say his death at the baclk temple smacked some sense into him but it's not really a satisfying answer to me.

Illidan always was a selfish powerhungry bastard, but ultimately he wasn't that clear cut than Arthas. You could say Illidan was the more honest one, he was always shady and wanted to fulfill his selfish desire and power, the difference here is that in order to fulfill his wish illidan had to save the world, while Arthas seemed like he cared for his nation and people, but as time passes it becomes clear that in the end he does not and his goal makes it necessary for the world to burn.

They whitewashed illidan in the sense that they made one of the purest beings in the universe say what he did was right, but it didn't change Illidan himself really, he is still the same selfish asshole that would burn worlds to save tyrande and by extension Azeroth.

[cparle87]

Greetings,

so just a short thread here but I was reading some Old God quotes and my attention was drawn to what Yogg says when he 'dies'.

"Your fate is sealed. The end of days is finally upon you and all who inhabit this miserable little seedling. Uulwi ifis halahs gag erh'ongg w'ssh."

'Seedling' is interesting here and it makes me wonder if back in Wrath Blizzard had the idea for the World Souls. Of course 'seedling' could just be poetic language for 'world with life on it' but seeds do of course grow into something. Perhaps Yogg was referring to the soul that would grow into Azeroth the Titan.

Maybe this was the line that gave a developer the idea!

Thoughts?

I think the general idea was still there. Check out the last boss in Arcatraz. "We bear allegience to beings untouched by time, unbound by fate. No force in this world or beyond harbors the strength to bend our knee, not even the mighty Legion." "We span the universe, as countless as the stars." "I am merely one of... infinite multitudes."

The first time BC timewalking came out after I'd read the Chronicles book I had a huge omg moment.

[Wildmoon]

Illidan always was a selfish powerhungry bastard, but ultimately he wasn't that clear cut than Arthas. You could say Illidan was the more honest one, he was always shady and wanted to fulfill his selfish desire and power, the difference here is that in order to fulfill his wish illidan had to save the world, while Arthas seemed like he cared for his nation and people, but as time passes it becomes clear that in the end he does not and his goal makes it necessary for the world to burn.

They whitewashed illidan in the sense that they made one of the purest beings in the universe say what he did was right, but it didn't change Illidan himself really, he is still the same selfish asshole that would burn worlds to save tyrande and by extension Azeroth.

It's not really only Xe'ra's attitude that people are getting at though. As I said Illidan in Legion seems very genuine in his desire to protect the world and its people. His dialogues in Legion reinforce that. It's not about being asshole or not. He has always been an asshole. That's not the point. His previous portrayals are not like in Legion concerning the expression of his motivations. For example in WC3, he completely backstabbed his brother thus potentially dooming his world out of petty jealousy. In the trilogy he went on a lot about wanting to be greater than his brother and wanting people see him save the world. There's none of personal desires involved in Legion's dialouges. There's no questioning Illidan's motivation anymore in Legion.

[Khaza-R]

Yar, the idea was there.

And after the events of the legion and the way they treated illidan as an anti-hero who sacrificed everything to push the hand of fate when the rest were not prepared i am amazed at how they haven't yet capitalized at the idea of Arthas having a plan to fight and seal away the old god threat starting from northrend with a major huge retcon.

That would be awful storytelling. They've gone out of their way to prove that Arthas was beyond redemption.

[Combatbutler]

It's not really only Xe'ra's attitude that people are getting at though. As I said Illidan in Legion seems very genuine in his desire to protect the world and its people. His dialogues in Legion reinforce that. It's not about being asshole or not. He has always been an asshole. That's not the point. His previous portrayals are not like in Legion concerning the expression of his motivations.

Because we never really get a good glimpse at it, only the outcomes, for example dragging Tyrande to the edge of the well, helping to save the day by using a spell sucking the demons from Azeroth, he didn't need to do that, or consuming the skull of gul'dan, allowing the forest to heal as a result and then just leaving the moment malfurion tells him to. He does it because he is selfish. Arthas discarded all he once held dear, this is the one thing Illidan could never do.

He might sound more concerned but not really, because in the end he would do all those reprehensible things all over again to fulfill his selfish desire to protect Tyrande. He preys on people at their lowest to get the tools necessary to get that job done and as such created the demon hunters, so he even created a cult all because of his own selfish desire, nothing more nothing less. If Tyrande had joined up with the legion he would be merrily slaughtering his way across Azeroth.

[Wildmoon]

Because we never really get a good glimpse at it, only the outcomes,

His motivations were stated plainly in both WC3 and the trilogy.

- - - Updated - - -

He might sound more concerned but not really,

That's the point of it. He has never sounded concerned before. The more extreme version of him which was WC3 manual did jump ship altogether when he thought the legion already won. He even ensured that they would win by informing them of Malfurion's plan.