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  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by zorkuus View Post
    Hey I'm with you there. Let's start tearing down anything related to Columbus. we need our priorities straight, that guy was a grade A dick.
    If we are to be consistent, then lets be consistent. Why stop at confederate war statues? Lets wipe all questionable names and statues from public use.

  2. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by petej0 View Post
    If we are to be consistent, then lets be consistent. Why stop at confederate war statues? Lets wipe all questionable names and statues from public use.
    You didn't read a single thing I wrote, did you? We don't honor controversial people for the controversy, but for the good things. There was nothing good about the motives of erecting confederate monuments. They had a very clear sinister motive. The history behind these isn't even that old, so it's not as if it's a mystery, it's well recorded. You might have a point if they were built with good intentions but they were not.

  3. #203
    History is written by the victor.

  4. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by zorkuus View Post
    You didn't read a single thing I wrote, did you? We don't honor controversial people for the controversy, but for the good things. There was nothing good about the motives of erecting confederate monuments. They had a very clear sinister motive. The history behind these isn't even that old, so it's not as if it's a mystery, it's well recorded. You might have a point if they were built with good intentions but they were not.
    Well, my world isnt so black and white. Lee, while fighting for the Confederates had his reasons and not because of his feelings for slavery. Lincoln, while President of the Union had his reasons and not because he felt slavery was bad or should be outlawed.

    And Columbus didnt do anything good.

  5. #205
    Quote Originally Posted by Plutarch78 View Post
    History is written by the victor.
    Spoken like a true Imperialist.
    Unreason and anti-intellectualism abominate thought. Thinking implies disagreement; and disagreement implies nonconformity; and nonconformity implies heresy; and heresy implies disloyalty — so, obviously, thinking must be stopped. But shouting is not a substitute for thinking and reason is not the subversion but the salvation of freedom. - Adlai Stevenson

  6. #206
    Quote Originally Posted by petej0 View Post
    Well, my world isnt so black and white. Lee, while fighting for the Confederates had his reasons and not because of his feelings for slavery. Lincoln, while President of the Union had his reasons and not because he felt slavery was bad or should be outlawed.
    Lee is not your best argument. You see, he didn't want monuments to be built for the confederacy (or himself).

  7. #207
    Quote Originally Posted by Livnthedream View Post
    Spoken like a true Imperialist.
    Its true though. What would our history books look like if Hitler won WW2? Or the Confederates winning the US Civil War? Or if the Bolsheviks were defeated in the Russian Civil War?

    Of course, I could post a million other examples but hopefully you get the idea. One man's hero is another man's criminal.

  8. #208
    Heroes are contextual to their time and culture. If the people living today want to be rid of these statues that's their right, and it will be the right of future generations to do the same to whatever we put up. The flipside is also true, if a town votes to keep their statues then so be it.

    Personally I don't see much value in them. Despite the efforts of all the apologists the only clear legacy of the Confederacy is one of betrayal, slavery and oppression. None of those are things worth honoring and the people rallying around them today prove that they aren't even good warnings.

  9. #209
    Lindybeige is great.

    The problem with attacking art is that it is easier to destroy than to create. It is easier to diminish history than it is to protect it.

    I want to preserve confederate monuments for the same reason I want my favorite movie to have a villain.

    it's easy to say "slavery bad" and "nazis bad" but its harder to say "they are a part of history" and "villains remind us why we fight, and what is worth fighting for"

    You want to move them to a museum, but why, isn't it indicative of what society has become where we choose censorship over discussion. I'm warning you if you make heavy-handed emotional arguements like antifa and their ilk have-you will only push more moderates to the right.

    Picking sides...when the whole point of these monuments is to show the absurdity of sides. The challenge of these statues is to see if you are a big enough person to tolerate and respect them. The way you treat and think about these statues is directly correlated to how you view and think about southerners. You don't see us as people, you see us as obstacles that can be removed, censored, and shut down when it becomes inconvenient.

  10. #210
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaexion Ramza Beoulve View Post
    You want to move them to a museum, but why, isn't it indicative of what society has become where we choose censorship over discussion.
    Museums are for preserving history not for cencorship. wtf

  11. #211
    Titan Grimbold21's Avatar
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    This reminds of a presentation a few classmates did on Gandhi. If my memory doesn't fail me, it was how everyone praising Gandhi but people forget or don't know that he held views that are controversial, like - i think - deeming Africans to be beneath Indians in the British colonial hierarchy (not entirely sure).

    And i was thinking that statues are erected for very specific and memorable reasons, usually for something of great benefit and/or impact.

  12. #212
    No heroes, no villains. Only animals.

  13. #213
    Quote Originally Posted by zorkuus View Post
    Lee is not your best argument. You see, he didn't want monuments to be built for the confederacy (or himself).
    Doesnt matter what he wanted. My point still stands, there are many shades of grey. Lee is memorable not because he was a Confederate General, Lee is memorable because of his success against the Union and partly because Arlington National Cemetery.

    Lee, Jackson, Sherman & Grant are known for their successful battles and strategies not because they were fighting for any cause in particular.

    Xerxes, Alexander, Leonidas, Hannibal, Geronimo, Rommel, MacArthur, Patton Are remembered for their military success and prowess not for the side in which they fought for.

  14. #214
    Void Lord Doctor Amadeus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by petej0 View Post
    Doesnt matter what he wanted. My point still stands, there are many shades of grey. Lee is memorable not because he was a Confederate General, Lee is memorable because of his success against the Union and partly because Arlington National Cemetery.

    Lee, Jackson, Sherman & Grant are known for their successful battles and strategies not because they were fighting for any cause in particular.

    Xerxes, Alexander, Leonidas, Hannibal, Geronimo, Rommel, MacArthur, Patton Are remembered for their military success and prowess not for the side in which they fought for.
    Why do the wishes of the human beings that existed matter when trying to make stupid statues. Life is fluid it changes, you didn't fucking KNOW Lee or any of these other people your life was not directly impacted by their actions either.

    This is reality not make believe.
    Milli Vanilli, Bigger than Elvis

  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by petej0 View Post
    Doesnt matter what he wanted. My point still stands, there are many shades of grey. Lee is memorable not because he was a Confederate General, Lee is memorable because of his success against the Union and partly because Arlington National Cemetery.

    Lee, Jackson, Sherman & Grant are known for their successful battles and strategies not because they were fighting for any cause in particular.

    Xerxes, Alexander, Leonidas, Hannibal, Geronimo, Rommel, MacArthur, Patton Are remembered for their military success and prowess not for the side in which they fought for.
    You keep missing the point, again and again. These statues were not built to honor any good qualities these people might have had. It was for other reasons entirely.

  16. #216
    Nazis and kkk all over the pkace in 2017 but past 8 years not a fuck give for them lol statues werent bad eight years ago too lol

  17. #217
    The Insane Kathandira's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raunchy View Post
    Nazis and kkk all over the pkace in 2017 but past 8 years not a fuck give for them lol statues werent bad eight years ago too lol
    It's a good chance many people didn't know they were there until it was brought to their attention.
    RIP Genn Greymane, Permabanned on 8.22.18

    Your name will carry on through generations, and will never be forgotten.

  18. #218
    Quote Originally Posted by zorkuus View Post
    You keep missing the point, again and again. These statues were not built to honor any good qualities these people might have had. It was for other reasons entirely.
    You dont fucking know that. You didnt build the statue and you dont personally know the person who did. If the statue was erected on a battlefield where they led a great campaign, good or bad, it is worth noting and learning.

    You dont get the same impact if it is just some park, with a plaque that states "Something happened here, led by a not so great person who you can learn more about in the Museum across town" but its closed on Columbus day so we can honor the achievements of an evil genocidal maniac.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mall Security View Post
    Why do the wishes of the human beings that existed matter when trying to make stupid statues. Life is fluid it changes, you didn't fucking KNOW Lee or any of these other people your life was not directly impacted by their actions either.

    This is reality not make believe.
    The tactics these leaders used are still taught to military commanders today. So yeah, they do directly impact my life.
    Last edited by petej0; 2017-08-18 at 08:06 PM.

  19. #219
    Quote Originally Posted by Livnthedream View Post
    Then I think you are projecting.

    And didn't you know, Lindybeige is a horrible conservative! :P
    Lindybeige aint an american ''conservative'' So he probally would not want statues (that wereput up during the jim crow era to intimidate minority groups) on public property.


    Also weeaboos wanting to be taken seriously lmao.

  20. #220
    Void Lord Doctor Amadeus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by petej0 View Post
    You dont fucking know that. You didnt build the statue and you dont personally know the person who did. If the statue was erected on a battlefield where they led a great campaign, good or bad, it is worth noting and learning.
    The tactics these leaders used are still taught to military commanders today. So yeah, they do directly impact my life.
    So and what about the people before that, I mean you don't know how polio was cured or who was directly responsible for that, but you like a monument dedicated to men doing what they had to, so that one day maybe they wouldn't

    Seriously what the fuck is wrong with you?
    Milli Vanilli, Bigger than Elvis

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