Trumps blames "alt left" for Charlottesville and "very fine people" on both sides.

[Somewhatconcerned]

By that logic isn't every American a traitor to the crown?

Unless you're British who the fuck cares?

[primalmatter]

Unless you're British who the fuck cares?

I am not sure how to respond to this...

[Edge-]

By that logic isn't every American a traitor to the crown?

No, because we won. We were traitors to the crown by our own choice, but we ceased being loyal to the crown as a result of our victory and became a separate entity. We were no longer traitors when we won, because we won.

The Confederates lost, they surrendered in defeat. That brands them as traitors as a result of their loss, had the won then it would have been the Northern Union side that would have been considered the traitors.

But, you know, the South lost and all. And many people are apparently still mad about it over a century later.

[primalmatter]

No, because we won. We were traitors to the crown by our own choice, but we ceased being loyal to the crown as a result of our victory and became a separate entity. We were no longer traitors when we won, because we won.

The Confederates lost, they surrendered in defeat. That brands them as traitors as a result of their loss, had the won then it would have been the Northern Union side that would have been considered the traitors.

But, you know, the South lost and all. And many people are apparently still mad about it over a century later.

I don't get your logic. I am not belittling you I just can't come to the same conclusion that you have.

[Edge-]

So the British were traitors?

...no. Where on earth did you get that? They were just losers. You're a traitor when you rebel and lose, not when you rebel and win.

[unfilteredJW]

I used your logic that the Northern Union would have been considered traitors had they lost instead of the confederates. The British lost so instead of the founding fathers being considered traitors the Brits were traitors...

Who did the Brits rebel against?

Seems pretty easy to understand the point made.

[draynay]

I used your logic that the Northern Union would have been considered traitors had they lost instead of the confederates. The British lost so instead of the founding fathers being considered traitors the Brits were traitors...

I don't think you understand logic.

[Blur4stuff]

I grew up in the southeast and this problem is deeply entrenched in some of their minds. The reason some have a hard time thinking about Lee and the confederacy as wrong or as traitors is because they consider themselves to still be part of the confederacy.

To them confederate monuments make complete sense because those are the heroes that fought for them and what they believe in. There are plenty who would love to have a confederacy that breaks away from the union. Others would just love to have Jim Crow return.

Boiling it down to the simplest sentence possible: They want non-whites to "know their place". This is exactly what the confederacy fought to preserve.

[draynay]

Really? Because someone saying that the North would have been considered traitors if they'd lost is soooo logical... Please read the entire chain and see that none of this is my logic, it's Edge's logic.

You're right, Edge said something dumb.

[Wyrt]

I grew up in the southeast and this problem is deeply entrenched in some of their minds. The reason some have a hard time thinking about Lee and the confederacy as wrong or as traitors is because they consider themselves to still be part of the confederacy.

To them confederate monuments make complete sense because those are the heroes that fought for them and what they believe in. There are plenty who would love to have a confederacy that breaks away from the union. Others would just love to have Jim Crow return.

Boiling it down to the simplest sentence possible: They want non-whites to "know their place". This is exactly what the confederacy fought to preserve.

Yep. These statues aren't up for historical purposes. They're up for glorifying slavery, traitors, and white supremacy.

[Xeones]

I grew up in the southeast and this problem is deeply entrenched in some of their minds. The reason some have a hard time thinking about Lee and the confederacy as wrong or as traitors is because they consider themselves to still be part of the confederacy.

To them confederate monuments make complete sense because those are the heroes that fought for them and what they believe in. There are plenty who would love to have a confederacy that breaks away from the union. Others would just love to have Jim Crow return.

Boiling it down to the simplest sentence possible: They want non-whites to "know their place". This is exactly what the confederacy fought to preserve.

Honestly the only part you're missing here is people gathering around the confederate flag as a anti-government symbol.

They call it the "rebel flag" for a reason. And it is being extended to these monuments. It's all linked into this idea of reforming the government into a theocracy with strict classes of people.

[Felya]

Honestly the only part you're missing here is people gathering around the confederate flag as a anti-government symbol.

They call it the "rebel flag" for a reason. And it is being extended to these monuments. It's all linked into this idea of reforming the government into a theocracy with strict classes of people.

Is there any other state that went through a civil war and still celebrates the losing side? Russia hunted down and killed every member of the royal family. France made the guillotine a house hold name. I don't remember people lining up around Saddam's statue, to defend it's historical value to Iraq.

[Xeones]

Is there any other state that went through a civil war and still celebrates the losing side? Russia hunted down and killed every member of the royal family. France made the guillotine a house hold name. I don't remember people lining up around Saddam's statue, to defend it's historical value to Iraq.

I was adding to what he said. Not trying to replace it.

It's treasonous and symbolizes hate. It's why the militias and white supremacists love it. But it's also being watered down to symbolize general anti-government sentiments held by the political right in general.

[DarkTZeratul]

Is there any other state that went through a civil war and still celebrates the losing side? Russia hunted down and killed every member of the royal family. France made the guillotine a house hold name. I don't remember people lining up around Saddam's statue, to defend it's historical value to Iraq.

Technically England, where Oliver Cromwell's name is spoken with derision to this day, but that's largely because even though he won the English Civil War the losing side just took over again two years after he died.

[Breccia]

Well Rush Limbaugh is here to defend Trump

"America is under attack from within. Our culture, our history, our founding are under the most direct assault I have seen in my life. And I’m sure it’s the same with you. We haven’t seen anything like this. You might even get away with saying that we are on the cusp of a second civil war. Some of you might say that we are already into it, that it has already begun. However you characterize it, though, we are under attack from within. And it’s being bought and paid for by people from outside America, in addition to inside."

Bolded for context. Limbaugh goes on to say how the Democrats and international people are coming to Baltimore (etc) to tear down Confederate monuments to destroy our history.

[Wyrt]

Well Rush Limbaugh is here to defend Trump

"America is under attack from within. Our culture, our history, our founding are under the most direct assault I have seen in my life. And I’m sure it’s the same with you. We haven’t seen anything like this. You might even get away with saying that we are on the cusp of a second civil war. Some of you might say that we are already into it, that it has already begun. However you characterize it, though, we are under attack from within. And it’s being bought and paid for by people from outside America, in addition to inside."

Bolded for context. Limbaugh goes on to say how the Democrats and international people are coming to Baltimore (etc) to tear down Confederate monuments to destroy our history.

Monuments to slavery and treason are not "our culture" or "our founding." It is our history, and it belongs in a museum, not placed on a pedestal and glorified.

[Breccia]

Monuments to slavery and treason are not "our culture" or "our founding." It is our history, and it belongs in a museum, not placed on a pedestal and glorified.

See, that's the thing. Limbaugh said there is a second Civil War coming, brought on partially by people clinging to the losing side of the first Civil War. Yeah he also mentions Soros and a few other talking points, but that's not where he starts nor his main focus. For some people, they are so obsessed with living 150 years in the past -- so far back, that nobody they have ever known in their entire life was alive -- that it is their culture. Their history. They are either intentionally longing for a time they've never known that was dominated by slavery, or unintentionally doing it, out of either pure unadulterated evil or just willful ignorance. Doesn't matter.

But people still feel like that's their history, their culture. And they will not let it go.

[Cthulhu 2020]

Also, I don't see people in the UK fighting the Crown from tearing down statues of Americans. Which do exist, including Washington, which was given to them in 1924. No rallies, no graffiti, nobody being murdered because they protested...um...what's the derogatory name for Brits who put on Redcoat uniforms and say America should come back under British rule?

Nobody knows? That's because the British aren't stupid enough to relive a war they lost for a bad reason. They've accepted that was a mistake, 200+ years later we're the best of friends except for which side of the road you drive on and how many u's in "color".

Yet, we still have Americans fighting on the losing side of the Civil War. And WW2.

- - - Updated - - -

I can't think of a good "Trump University" headline for this one.

University students petition to take back Trump honorary degree

Someone posted a great quote from Twitter.

"Both the Nazis and the Confederates fought wars and lost to white men, so remind me again why they hate colored people?"

[Breccia]

Once again, not photoshopped. Not American, either.

[Edge-]

Once again, not photoshopped. Not American, either.

How do we know that's supposed to be Trump?! That could be anyone under that hood!

Damn, guess Der Spiegal was jealous at all the US magazines getting to have fun with their covers and wanted in on that action as well.