Heroes are good - let's make statues of them

[Livnthedream]

Lindybeige aint an american ''conservative'' So he probally would not want statues (that wereput up during the jim crow era to intimidate minority groups) on public property.

No no, you don't understand. He is a horrible sexist, misogynist, shitlord. He must be Conservative!

Also weeaboos wanting to be taken seriously lmao.

What the fuck makes you think I am a weeaboo? FFS I don't even like anime.

[zorkuus]

You dont fucking know that. You didnt build the statue and you dont personally know the person who did. If the statue was erected on a battlefield where they led a great campaign, good or bad, it is worth noting and learning.

I know because I read. What's your next argument? Historians are wrong? The Jim Crow era didn't happen?

[petej0]

So and what about the people before that, I mean you don't know how polio was cured or who was directly responsible for that, but you like a monument dedicated to men doing what they had to, so that one day maybe they wouldn't

Seriously what the fuck is wrong with you?

If you want a monument to the people who cured polio in their home towns, I would have no problem with that. I dont understand your point.

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I know because I read. What's your next argument? Historians are wrong? The Jim Crow era didn't happen?

That has nothing to do with why a statue COULD have been constructed on a battle site. You're inferring your feelings on a person who could have erected a statue for a different reason.

[zorkuus]

That has nothing to do with why a statue COULD have been constructed on a battle site.

Most of them are not on battle sites.

[Doctor Amadeus]

If you want a monument to the people who cured polio in their home towns, I would have no problem with that. I dont understand your point.

The point is wars suck and often the best military minds bordered on the cusp of being psychotic, or dedicated, and in some case both sometimes the best. However most didn't want monuments or medals either, their ultimate goal was so that no others had to take their place or shoulder their burdens.

If you actually read history, you'll know the best military minds, didn't actually like war all that much. In that yes we should honor them, by not putting up fucking statues but instead, remembering the lessons of the past and learning.

You want to honor a vet or the great ones, don't shit on everything they died for so you could feel weepy about yourself. Build on what they provided but never forget, what it cost.

[petej0]

The point is wars suck and often the best military minds bordered on the cusp of being psychotic, or dedicated, and in some case both sometimes the best. However most didn't want monuments or medals either, their ultimate goal was so that no others had to take their place or shoulder their burdens.

If you actually read history, you'll know the best military minds, didn't actually like war all that much. In that yes we should honor them, by not putting up fucking statues but instead, remembering the lessons of the past and learning.

You want to honor a vet or the great ones, don't shit on everything they died for so you could feel weepy about yourself. Build on what they provided but never forget, what it cost.

We seem to agree. I wont stop people from erecting a statue if that is what the person wants to do. If someone wants to honor Babe Ruth with a statue in his home town, go for it. If someone wants to honor John Glenn in his home town, go for it. If someone wants to honor the military achievements of Sherman in his home town, go for it.

The North East is littered with monuments and statues and parks all dedicated to Revolutionary battles and/or leaders that took place. Most of which arent annotated in history books because they were not big battles, but matter greatly to the people who live(d) in those towns. People passing through would never know the historic significance if there wasnt a monument or statue.

[Doctor Amadeus]

We seem to agree. I wont stop people from erecting a statue if that is what the person wants to do. If someone wants to honor Babe Ruth with a statue in his home town, go for it. If someone wants to honor John Glenn in his home town, go for it. If someone wants to honor the military achievements of Sherman in his home town, go for it.

Yeah, but people are human beings, we are all ugly in the dark when nobody is watching and can see. We can do wonderful great things when we decide to, but what about all the other times.

I think humanity needs to wake up to some realities, at the end of the day it is your choices that define who you are in the face adversity, not what you say when everything is easy too.

I mean I think of doctors or nurses, maybe paramedics that are there in your darkest moments where you are real sorry for how stupid you been, and wish for those moments or seconds back to go the other direction.

Those people I am not sure exactly how to honor them when most of the time they say "Not to day" and save someone, but spend most of their time haunted by the ones they couldn't

How do you say thank you for that without cheapening it?

[petej0]

Yeah, but people are human beings, we are all ugly in the dark when nobody is watching and can see. We can do wonderful great things when we decide to, but what about all the other times.

I think humanity needs to wake up to some realities, at the end of the day it is your choices that define who you are in the face adversity, not what you say when everything is easy too.

I mean I think of doctors or nurses, maybe paramedics that are there in your darkest moments where you are real sorry for how stupid you been, and wish for those moments or seconds back to go the other direction.

Those people I am not sure exactly how to honor them when most of the time they say "Not to day" and save someone, but spend most of their time haunted by the ones they couldn't

How do you say thank you for that without cheapening it?

And thats why if you are going to go the route of tearing down statues, you have to take them all down. Rename all the parks, towns, schools, street, libraries etc... No matter how much good a person has done they also have a dark side, some are just more public then others.

Can you honor someone who is homophobic if they fight for the rights of women? Where do you draw the line on good vs bad?

[Doctor Amadeus]

And thats why if you are going to go the route of tearing down statues, you have to take them all down. Rename all the parks, towns, schools, street, libraries etc... No matter how much good a person has done they also have a dark side, some are just more public then others.

Can you honor someone who is homophobic if they fight for the rights of women? Where do you draw the line on good vs bad?

DAMN GOOD QUESTIONS

People don't like to see the ugly sometimes.

[AeneasBK]

Heroes are very real, they are just not your typical heroes from comic books. Or those we considered heroes int he past

Precisely what is meant by "Heroes are make believe" surely? They are an idea, a paragon; they don't actually exist. What exists are heroic actions.

[Rhamses]

You dont fucking know that. You didnt build the statue and you dont personally know the person who did. If the statue was erected on a battlefield where they led a great campaign, good or bad, it is worth noting and learning.

The majority of those statues were built during Jim Crow to intimidate black people. Some even have racist inscriptions on them that are so heinous they would bring a smile to Hitler's face. It's not a coincidence that many of those Confederate statues were built in the 1920s right alongside a massive increase in immigration, the Great Migration of African Americans from the south (due to a dramatic rise in racial terrorism), and the resurgence of the KKK.

[Radaney]

Heroes are make believe.

I disagree.

[Canpinter]

And thats why if you are going to go the route of tearing down statues, you have to take them all down. Rename all the parks, towns, schools, street, libraries etc... No matter how much good a person has done they also have a dark side, some are just more public then others.

Can you honor someone who is homophobic if they fight for the rights of women? Where do you draw the line on good vs bad?

here is the question tho, what GOOD did people like Confederate generals do? This isn't like admiral nelson who was famous for doing something good but had some bad character flaws, the thing these people are well known for is horrible. It would be like building a statue for jeffrey dahmer because he did a lot of charitably work, your still celebrating a person most known for being a murderer.

[Zabatakis]

I say you leftist are incredibly hypocritical on this. You want to give everyone a participation trophy but won't let the inbred yokles have a participation monument to that time they came in last @ the first US civil war. Not everyone is created equally, these neo-nazis and klansmans have never won anything, don't you think they are getting sad? Plus, if you take those things down how will you remember that time a large group of idiots suffered a crushing defeat because they wanted slaves so bad they decided they would try to kill people until they had that right? History must be preserved.

[Clone]

Hero worship is stupid.

[Dreknar20]

They were not erected to be art first and foremost but to honor despicable people and values.

clearly the people who made them didn't think they were despicable

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here is the question tho, what GOOD did people like Confederate generals do?

led their troops into battle.......you know that they are hired to

Losing sides erect monuments all the time. To honor the dead. Or as people said participation trohpies 'yeah we failed, but hey, keep your chin up!"

[Kaleredar]

Doesnt matter what he wanted. My point still stands, there are many shades of grey. Lee is memorable not because he was a Confederate General, Lee is memorable because of his success against the Union

...As a hostile enemy general who fought for a power whose main goal was to further the existence of slavery.


You CANNOT disconnect it from that.


That's why there aren't Rommel statues around Germany, no matter how good of a "general" he was. You can't disconnect him from the cause he fought for, because doing so is effectively ignoring all the terrible things they were 'adept' generals fighting for. The nazis and confederacy never stood for anything greater than what they stood for when they were wiped from the earth and defeated. Even moreso because white supremacists and neo nazis still exist to this day, championing their bygone fallen causes while praising individuals from those regimes for the damage they inflicted upon various groups.



"Here we have the statue of Robert E. Lee, a brilliant General"

"really? Who was he a brilliant general for?"

"A group of treasonous states who fought tooth and nail to preserve a system in which human beings could buy and sell each other based on the color of their skin, but I mean we're really just trying to focus on how good of a general he was, here! Next up, we have our statue of Hitler celebrating how good he was at civic planning!"

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clearly the people who made them didn't think they were despicable

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led their troops into battle.......you know that they are hired to

Losing sides erect monuments all the time. To honor the dead. Or as people said participation trohpies 'yeah we failed, but hey, keep your chin up!"

The "honor" that the south got post-war was not having every surviving confederate soldier, captain, commander and general hung for treason.

[Dreknar20]

The "honor" that the south got post-war was not having every surviving confederate soldier, captain, commander and general hung for treason.

and here I thought genocide was an evuuuuul bad guy thingy

[Antiganon]

I like how all the conservatives ignore the free market solution to this problem: buy the damn statue and put it in your own yard.

[Doctor Funkenstein]

Honoring despicable people and art not being the primary reason doesn't contradict my statement that statues have historical value and are considered art.

I'll shit on a piece of canvas, smear it around until it generally forms a picture of Adolf Hitler, and then enshrine it in front of your house. It's art. Don't you dare take it down or vandalize it.