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  1. #281
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    Jeesum crow they're PUTTING THE DAMN STATUES IN MUSEUMS.

    Sorry, but this has been said COUNTLESS times. People want them REMOVED from public land because it really looks like you endorse the person you have a statue of when it's sitting in front of your town hall.
    If the majority of the people want them out of public lands, of course it should be. Since you know we own the public lands with our collective taxes. My statement was more general, its not a USA problem only either. Even history academy books, people attempt to remove hurtful truth about the past for many different reasons. The past can and should hurt, it simply means we should strive to do better, not that you endorse it. And like i said some people clearly want us to go back into the past as well. Erasing the past or going back to it, neither is a good answer.

    Many of north american memorial are gona be in honor of man that used to be slavers or have connection to slavery, murder of native, etc even in Canada. We have a big Samuel de champlain statue well located in Quebec city, he was a product of his time, but still was the father of new france. These statues are not there to honor their slavering, military, thieves, etc ways. They are usually there because they are founders, leaders, etc. But at the end of the days, people from the past are products of their era.
    Last edited by minteK917; 2017-08-19 at 10:38 AM.

  2. #282
    Merely a Setback Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by minteK917 View Post
    If the majority of the people want them out of public lands, of course it should be. Since you know we own the public lands with our collective taxes. My statement was more general, its not a USA problem only either. Even history academy books, people attempt to remove hurtful truth about the past for many different reasons. The past can and should hurt, it simply means we should strive to do better, not that you endorse it. And like i said some people clearly want us to go back into the past as well. Erasing the past or going back to it, neither is a good answer.
    The problem is is that people are exacerbating this controversy by "pretending" that the statues are simply being destroyed and not put in museums. They're intentionally misrepresenting the situation to inflame people that otherwise likely wouldn't care if they were moving the statues into museums... which is exactly what's being done.


    But the conservative way of late seems to be based off of making people angry and scared based on false pretenses in order to further their political platform, so I can't really say I'm surprised.
    “Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  3. #283
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    The problem is is that people are exacerbating this controversy by "pretending" that the statues are simply being destroyed and not put in museums. They're intentionally misrepresenting the situation to inflame people that otherwise likely wouldn't care if they were moving the statues into museums... which is exactly what's being done.


    But the conservative way of late seems to be based off of making people angry and scared based on false pretenses in order to further their political platform, so I can't really say I'm surprised.
    Oh i get that, i was just voicing my general opinion on how monument and history in general should be used. Like i said i just know theres two pieces at play all over the world and its not something new. Some people always want to go back to the good old days, some people always want to erase past sins from the books because of the feels. When they start removing stuff like genocide we did on the natives or that we gave natives weapons to kill one another for our gains from our school history books because its offensive is just wrong, it should be offensive, because it is. But it should be know exactly for that reason.

  4. #284
    Quote Originally Posted by The Jabberwock View Post
    I'll shit on a piece of canvas, smear it around until it generally forms a picture of Adolf Hitler, and then enshrine it in front of your house. It's art. Don't you dare take it down or vandalize it.
    I imagine you'd need a permit to place it somewhere in public. You definitely wouldn't be able to place it on my property.

    I would definitely consider painting of Adolf Hitler made out of shit art.

  5. #285
    Quote Originally Posted by Cooper View Post
    Well, Lee, for one, wasn't one of those people. In fact he became a symbol of reconciliation between North and South after the war, and prior to the war was an American war hero of the Mexican-American War and superintendent of West Point; after the war, he was President of Washington University (after which it became Washington and Lee University). He even probably very publicly took communion with a black man after the war, and while he did own slaves his family ran a very illegal school for them (much like Stonewall Jackson did). He (also like Jackson) did not choose to fight for the Confederacy to defend slavery - he didn't even particularly like slavery, but felt it was part of God's plan and would end when God willed it - but because Virginia was his home.

    So you're painting with far too broad a brush there.
    Uh, Lee did choose to fight for the Confederacy, and when he made that choice he took on the Confederate cause, which was a cause to continue racial oppression and deny a segment of population their rights. His actions during the Mexican American war, and him being the superintendent of West Point are pretty irrelevant against the fact that he took up arms against the United States and fought to create a country whose foundations were white supremacy and black servitude.

    I'm sure Benedict Arnold did some positive things before he betrayed the country.

  6. #286
    Deleted
    You are deluded if you believe they will allow statues of white men erected. It does not matter who they were, what they said, what they did.


  7. #287
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    So get your slippery slope nonsense out of here.
    You were saying?

    http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-...818-story.html
    Unreason and anti-intellectualism abominate thought. Thinking implies disagreement; and disagreement implies nonconformity; and nonconformity implies heresy; and heresy implies disloyalty — so, obviously, thinking must be stopped. But shouting is not a substitute for thinking and reason is not the subversion but the salvation of freedom. - Adlai Stevenson

  8. #288
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhamses View Post
    Uh, Lee did choose to fight for the Confederacy, and when he made that choice he took on the Confederate cause, which was a cause to continue racial oppression and deny a segment of population their rights. His actions during the Mexican American war, and him being the superintendent of West Point are pretty irrelevant against the fact that he took up arms against the United States and fought to create a country whose foundations were white supremacy and black servitude.
    Only to the willfully ignorant.

    Here, I'll repost the letter written by Eisenhower on the subject that I posted last page:

    August 9, 1960

    Dear Dr. Scott:

    Respecting your August 1 inquiry calling attention to my often expressed admiration for General Robert E. Lee, I would say, first, that we need to understand that at the time of the War between the States the issue of secession had remained unresolved for more than 70 years. Men of probity, character, public standing and unquestioned loyalty, both North and South, had disagreed over this issue as a matter of principle from the day our Constitution was adopted.

    General Robert E. Lee was, in my estimation, one of the supremely gifted men produced by our Nation. He believed unswervingly in the Constitutional validity of his cause which until 1865 was still an arguable question in America; he was a poised and inspiring leader, true to the high trust reposed in him by millions of his fellow citizens; he was thoughtful yet demanding of his officers and men, forbearing with captured enemies but ingenious, unrelenting and personally courageous in battle, and never disheartened by a reverse or obstacle. Through all his many trials, he remained selfless almost to a fault and unfailing in his faith in God. Taken altogether, he was noble as a leader and as a man, and unsullied as I read the pages of our history.

    From deep conviction, I simply say this: a nation of men of Lee’s calibre would be unconquerable in spirit and soul. Indeed, to the degree that present-day American youth will strive to emulate his rare qualities, including his devotion to this land as revealed in his painstaking efforts to help heal the Nation’s wounds once the bitter struggle was over, we, in our own time of danger in a divided world, will be strengthened and our love of freedom sustained.

    Such are the reasons that I proudly display the picture of this great American on my office wall.

    Sincerely,

    Dwight D. Eisenhower
    And add to that remarks Franklin Roosevelt made at the unveiling of a Robert E. Lee statue in Texas:

    I am very happy to take part in this unveiling of the statue of General Robert E. Lee.

    All over the United States we recognize him as a great leader of men, as a great general. But, also, all over the United States I believe that we recognize him as something much more important than that. We recognize Robert E. Lee as one of our greatest American Christians and one of our greatest American gentlemen.
    And Gerald Ford, after signing a Congressional Bill to restore citizenship to Lee, in 1975:

    Governor Godwin, Senator Byrd, Congressman Butler, Congressman Harris, Congressman Satterfield, Congressman Downing, and Congressman Daniel, distinguished guests, ladies and gentlemen:

    I am very pleased to sign Senate Joint Resolution 23, restoring posthumously the long overdue, full rights of citizenship to General Robert E. Lee. This legislation corrects a 110-year oversight of American history. It is significant that it is signed at this place.

    Lee's dedication to his native State of Virginia chartered his course for the bitter Civil War years, causing him to reluctantly resign from a distinguished career in the United States Army and to serve as General of the Army of Northern Virginia. He, thus, forfeited his rights to U.S. citizenship.

    Once the war was over, he firmly felt the wounds of the North and South must be bound up. He sought to show by example that the citizens of the South must dedicate their efforts to rebuilding that region of the country as a strong and vital part of the American Union.

    In 1865, Robert E. Lee wrote to a former Confederate soldier concerning his signing the Oath of Allegiance, and I quote: "This war, being at an end, the Southern States having laid down their arms, and the questions at issue between them and the Northern States having been decided, I believe it to be the duty of everyone to unite in the restoration of the country and the reestablishment of peace and harmony."

    This resolution passed by the Congress responds to the formal application of General Lee to President Andrew Johnson on June 13, 1865, for the restoration of his full rights of citizenship. Although this petition was endorsed by General Grant and forwarded to the President through the Secretary of War, an Oath of Allegiance was not attached because notice of this additional requirement had not reached Lee in time.

    Later, after his inauguration as President of Washington College on October 2, 1865, Lee executed a notarized Oath of Allegiance. Again his application was not acted upon because the Oath of Allegiance was apparently lost. It was finally discovered in the National Archives in 1970.

    As a soldier, General Lee left his mark on military strategy. As a man, he stood as the symbol of valor and of duty. As an educator, he appealed to reason and learning to achieve understanding and to build a stronger nation. The course he chose after the war became a symbol to all those who had marched with him in the bitter years towards Appomattox.

    General Lee's character has been an example to succeeding generations, making the restoration of his citizenship an event in which every American can take pride.

    In approving this Joint Resolution, the Congress removed the legal obstacle to citizenship which resulted from General Lee's Civil War service. Although more than a century late, I am delighted to sign this resolution and to complete the full restoration of General Lee's citizenship.

  9. #289
    Quote Originally Posted by Cooper View Post
    Only to the willfully ignorant.
    You don't get it, that is the Alt-Right borrowing the GG time machine!
    Unreason and anti-intellectualism abominate thought. Thinking implies disagreement; and disagreement implies nonconformity; and nonconformity implies heresy; and heresy implies disloyalty — so, obviously, thinking must be stopped. But shouting is not a substitute for thinking and reason is not the subversion but the salvation of freedom. - Adlai Stevenson

  10. #290
    Merely a Setback Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Livnthedream View Post
    So now you've stopped talking about statues (the subject) and have referred instead to... the name of a horse? Of which absolutely nothing is being done?


    Yeah, like I said, get that out of here.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Cooper View Post
    Only to the willfully ignorant.

    Here, I'll repost the letter written by Eisenhower on the subject that I posted last page:



    And add to that remarks Franklin Roosevelt made at the unveiling of a Robert E. Lee statue in Texas:



    And Gerald Ford, after signing a Congressional Bill to restore citizenship to Lee, in 1975:

    People have since realized that pandering to white supremacists and dixiecrats (really? Restoring a dead man's citizenship 105 years after he died?) is no longer as necessary as it once was.
    “Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  11. #291
    Quote Originally Posted by Cooper View Post
    Only to the willfully ignorant.
    Um, where's the ignorance? Racism, White Supremacy, and the subjegation of Blacks was exactly what the Confederacy's foundation was based upon. The leaders of the CSA stated so themselves. Lee shared those same values, which is why he was willing to fight and die for them. He also betrayed his oath to the United States and took up arms against it. We're honoring this man why? Because after he got trounced on the battlefield he became a nice old man? He fought to destroy the country for an unjust cause.

    Here, I'll repost the letter written by random dead president
    who each had a history of pandering to southern white racists...
    Don't bother. Their views are irrelevant.

  12. #292
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhamses View Post
    Um, where's the ignorance? Racism, White Supremacy, and the subjegation of Blacks was exactly what the Confederacy's foundation was based upon. The leaders of the CSA stated so themselves. Lee shared those same values, which is why he was willing to fight and die for them. He also betrayed his oath to the United States and took up arms against it. We're honoring this man why? Because after he got trounced on the battlefield he became a nice old man? He fought to destroy the country for an unjust cause.



    Don't bother. Their views are irrelevant.
    Textbook confirmation bias. "Any view that disagrees with me is irrelevant."

    And by the by, Eisenhower's letter was in response to a private letter he received from a New York dentist complaining about him having Lee's portrait in his office (I even posted that letter in this thread); not even remotely "pandering to southern white racists."

    And Ford's speech came after signing a bill that passed the house 407 votes to 10, and the Senate unanimously. So no pandering there.

    And you ask where the ignorance is.
    Last edited by Cooper; 2017-08-19 at 11:50 PM.

  13. #293
    Quote Originally Posted by Cooper View Post
    Textbook confirmation bias. "Any view that disagrees with me is irrelevant."

    And by the by, Eisenhower's letter was in response to a private letter he received from a New York dentist complaining about him having Lee's portrait in his office (I even posted that letter in this thread); not even remotely "pandering to southern white racists."

    And Ford's speech came after signing a bill that passed the house 407 votes to 10, and the Senate unanimously. So no pandering there.
    I'm sorry, but what does any of that have to do with the Confederacy being a regime built on slavery, treason, and white supremacy? Those Robert E Lee statues were erected because he led the Confederate army, not because he was a nice guy after he got beaten by the US army.

  14. #294
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhamses View Post
    I'm sorry, but what does any of that have to do with the Confederacy being a regime built on slavery, treason, and white supremacy? Those Robert E Lee statues were erected because he led the Confederate army, not because he was a nice guy after he got beaten by the US army.
    If several different Presidents of the United States paying honor to him doesn't get through to you, nothing will.

    Hopefully it did to somebody reading this who is actually open to reason, though.

  15. #295
    Merely a Setback Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cooper View Post
    If several different Presidents of the United States paying honor to him doesn't get through to you, nothing will.

    Hopefully it did to somebody reading this who is actually open to reason, though.
    We've decided that the "outstanding moral fiber" of Robert E. Lee is no longer relevant in light of the cause he supported.

    Like I said; pandering to southern racists is no longer a necessary way to hold sway in politics. There's no reason to pay lip service to them by "honoring" their traitorous so-called heroes.
    “Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  16. #296
    Quote Originally Posted by Cooper View Post
    If several different Presidents of the United States paying honor to him doesn't get through to you, nothing will.

    Hopefully it did to somebody reading this who is actually open to reason, though.
    What does that matter? Does that change the fact that the Confederacy was a regime whose foundation was built on White supremacy and the subjugation of minority groups? Does that change the 100 years of brutal apartheid and terrorism committed by ex-Confederates when the war was over? Robert E. Lee led those forces knowing full well what they were. If he was truly an honorable man who disagreed with it and turned a blind eye to it, then that makes him complicit. If he agreed with those deplorable principles, that makes him just as evil as the regime itself.

    Those facts don't change just because a couple of U.S. Presidents thought he was a hero.

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