Anti-antifa = fa

[Doctor Amadeus]

I think the point he's making is that ideology doesn't offer a lens through which moral principles can be understood, thus people whose entire philosophical foundation is based on dogmatic adherence to ideology do not have the epistemological tools to differentiate between their own ideology and a diametrically opposed ideology that happens to follow similar moral principles.

I figured that would be common sense though.

Do me one favor please, hell I would even be willing to pay you, stop saying common sense, because we both know when it comes to some of these common fucks it isn't their sense that can be relied on. Rather call it good sense or maybe better sense, and leave it as an objective goal to aim for.

Because at this point these folks fail so badly at basic fucking knowledge, I don't think anything that approaches common sense, is in the sphere of their grasp.


Chicago is and has been known pretty historically as one of the most corrupt cities well before any current trends have given the city and state yet another black eye. Guess that requires actually haven even had a basic sense of curiosity too.

[OrcsRLame]

Do me one favor please, hell I would even be willing to pay you, stop saying common sense, because we both know when it comes to some of these common fucks it isn't their sense that can be relied on. Rather call it good sense or maybe better sense, and leave it as an objective goal to aim for.

Because at this point these folks fail so badly at basic fucking knowledge, I don't think anything that approaches common sense, is in the sphere of their grasp.


Chicago is and has been known pretty historically as one of the most corrupt cities well before any current trends have given the city and state yet another black eye. Guess that requires actually haven even had a basic sense of curiosity too.

I was talking about the twitter picture not about Chicago.

[Doctor Amadeus]

Hey, if all white supremacists are Nazi's, absolutely. Not like this forum is welcoming to nuance, or cares!

Ok well hair at least you are showing some kind of integrity, you know at least some kind of consistency of your own standard or rule. And you are correct in my sense yes I think any defense or association with Nazi's makes one a Nazi along with any and everything they touch.

Provided

That all black people are members of BLM
Every person who kills or shoots at a cop despite other problems highlighted by BLM, are BLMs fault because you know not like a FUCKING LAW ENFORCEMENT agency and justice system should ever be held accountable for doing their JOBS fairly.

Provided that Nazi's Neo, or Otherwise including Alt-Right regardless to whatever rainbow and color of useful idiots, claim otherwise, because remember #NotYourShield

And Guilt White Liberal isn't considered any more or less racist than calling someone black an Uncle Tom or Guilty Black Conservative etc.


I think I am getting the hang of your nuance.

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I was talking about the twitter picture not about Chicago.

Well hay at least we are getting the rules straight for for tit for tat.

[OrcsRLame]

Well hay at least we are getting the rules straight for for tit for tat.

I don't follow.

To summarize the conversation from my pov. Other user posted the twitter picture with Antifa and the Hitler quote.

You dismissed what I saw as the obvious point with what I saw as an incorrect or dishonest analysis. I assumed incorrect fyi.

I responded to you, stating why I think that picture actually does matter, all the stuff about ideology hamstringing epistemology.

You responded with stuff that seems entirely unrelated to what I was talking about.

And now we're here.

[Doctor Amadeus]

I don't follow.

To summarize the conversation from my pov. Other user posted the twitter picture with Antifa and the Hitler quote.

You dismissed what I saw as the obvious point with what I saw as an incorrect or dishonest analysis. I assumed incorrect fyi.

I responded to you, stating why I think that picture actually does matter, all the stuff about ideology hamstringing epistemology.

You responded with stuff that seems entirely unrelated to what I was talking about.

And now we're here.

___ Yep, I got that. I thought you may have been referencing the entire response.

I was making a reflection on the term you used by meaning common sense in your analysis. My attempt was more at humor meaning depending where you are as it related to the Twitter Screen Shot by a single individual. Used as a way to paint all of any one kind of group.

My last point to you was about tit for tat, which was the initial point I made in my first response NOT to you but to LivntheDream.

[Ianus]

Random related question: Was 9/11 an inside job?
Because I am getting certain vibes here..

nope
/10 chars

[OrcsRLame]

___ Yep, I got that. I thought you may have been referencing the entire response.

I was making a reflection on the term you used by meaning common sense in your analysis. My attempt was more at humor meaning depending where you are.

My last point to you was about tit for tat, which was the initial point I made in my first response NOT to you but to LivntheDream.

Okay, I think we're pretty much on the same page now. So I guess I'll just be blunt. Do you agree with my analysis, think I'm off my rocker, or somewhere in between?

I keep driving at this point because I think it's really important. Antifa may be diametrically opposed to the Nazis ideologically, but the bedrock moral principles that frame their ideology is the same. This is why, to me, the groups are equivalent, not in deed or banner, but in principle. This is also why Bernie Sanders never worried me a bit despite him calling himself a Socialist whenever he could; because it was obvious by examining his actions and listening to him talk exactly where his moral center was. Sanders may call himself a Socialist, he may even agree with some things that are traditionally Socialist positions, but Sanders is what I would call a good person. I felt like I could trust him to attempt to act in a good manner, in the moral landscape sense of what good and evil is.

So to me, Antifa and Nazis share the single most important quality; both groups are comprised of evil people. Once again I'd like to make clear that that is not good and evil in a judgmental sense, but good and evil in a moral landscape sense, which is kind of close to Utilitarianism, but not quite.

So it honestly freaks me the hell out when I see people making excuses for Antifa or trying to frame other people worrying about Antifa as making excuses for Nazis. For me, it's not about being partisan or trying to deflect from how bad Nazis are; it's about examining bedrock moral principles in an effort to not give evil people a free pass.

To make it crystal clear that for me this is not about partisan politics; my more nihilistic side wants all the Nazis to just kill themselves tonight, so I can jump into these forums and say, "Now that all the Nazis are dead, for the love of God can we have an honest conversation about how dangerous Antifa is?" My less nihilistic side would of course like to see the toxicity of our politics deescalate without further violence.

And I wouldn't even be talking about Antifa if everyone took them seriously. It's why I don't spend a lot of time talking about the evils of Nazism. Everyone knows the Nazis are vile pieces of shit, so me reiterating that is just preaching at the choir.

[netherflame]

Why should I support some radical bunch of morons ? Both sides are retards, whom are both violent... only difference being that Antifa are fucking hypocrites.

"If you're not with us you're against us!"

Honestly ?

This is so true, its funny how everyone blew up on Trump when he said both sides were at fault. Thats the truth no matter what you want to believe.

[Doctor Amadeus]

Dude, your posts give me a headache. State your business and stop with the word salad.

Fair enough my hole point was about conflating one issue for another and painting with a broad brush hopefully the hyperbole considering the nonstop with over the last few days of post would be clear with the point I was making like a brick to the face. I was wrong.

[TheFirstOnes]

I'm no Nazi, nor am I of Antifa.

[Barnabas]

Do you mean there is enough black people for you to peg that bullshit on Black Lives Matter because BLM like a grand amount of things you don't really know what the fuck you are talking about with?

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You mean like the killings done during prohibition, are there any numbers concerning white on white crimes since hard liquor was fucking illegal yet it was everywhere?

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So one picture taken off Twitter a movement makes eh? I just want to make sure that is what you are saying.

It can be described as a bowel movement also.

[Doctor Amadeus]

Okay, I think we're pretty much on the same page now. So I guess I'll just be blunt. Do you agree with my analysis, think I'm off my rocker, or somewhere in between?

No the point you made was pretty well spot on.

My response to yours was NOT clear, my point I was specifically applying towards the twitter tweet was about painting with the broad brush being a double edge sword, especially when considering the range from which that tactic is used to cast a wide net, Antifa, BLM, Liberals, Leftwing etc.

I keep driving at this point because I think it's really important. Antifa may be diametrically opposed to the Nazis ideologically, but the bedrock moral principles that frame their ideology is the same. This is why, to me, the groups are equivalent, not in deed or banner, but in principle. This is also why Bernie Sanders never worried me a bit despite him calling himself a Socialist whenever he could; because it was obvious by examining his actions and listening to him talk exactly where his moral center was. Sanders may call himself a Socialist, he may even agree with some things that are traditionally Socialist positions, but Sanders is what I would call a good person. I felt like I could trust him to attempt to act in a good manner, in the moral landscape sense of what good and evil is.

Yes and this is a paramount point that should be a neutral zone if you will, nobody owns this idea that any group that unilaterally decides what other people can choose for themselves is a dangerous path to go down.

So to me, Antifa and Nazis share the single most important quality; both groups are comprised of evil people. Once again I'd like to make clear that that is not good and evil in a judgmental sense, but good and evil in a moral landscape sense, which is kind of close to Utilitarianism, but not quite.

There is honestly no way to unpack this, I can't say this statement is wrong, I can't say one way or another because this is your perspective. I can only ever be open minded to your reasons for this. I don't think that means you are a Nazi or anything else.

So it honestly freaks me the hell out when I see people making excuses for Antifa or trying to frame other people worrying about Antifa as making excuses for Nazis. For me, it's not about being partisan or trying to deflect from how bad Nazis are; it's about examining bedrock moral principles in an effort to not give evil people a free pass.

That sounds fucking very reasonable. Because as history has proven sometimes it's easy to be blind sided, in the attempt to combat one kind of evil another can rear it's head.

However without specific context it's hard to respond effectively without painting with the broad brush or we run into the prospect of losing credibility. Because if you call someone say a MONSTER, guess what people are going to check, whether they want to believe it or not.

Nazi's can be easily checked independently by anyone, despite your politics, it's real clear what they represent. Antifa often associated with Communism was pretty much eradicated in any real way in private or public live in the U.S so much so it completely collapsed everywhere else. That really says nothing but Antifa per say, except that if you follow that logic at worse what is the argument.

I ask that honestly, what is the argument concerning Antifa's threat in the U.S

To make it crystal clear that for me this is not about partisan politics; my more nihilistic side wants all the Nazis to just kill themselves tonight, so I can jump into these forums and say, "Now that all the Nazis are dead, for the love of God can we have an honest conversation about how dangerous Antifa is?" My less nihilistic side would of course like to see the toxicity of our politics deescalate without further violence.

And I wouldn't even be talking about Antifa if everyone took them seriously. It's why I don't spend a lot of time talking about the evils of Nazism. Everyone knows the Nazis are vile pieces of shit, so me reiterating that is just preaching at the choir.

I disagree especially in the U.S here people have a very warped sense of history and our country as it relates to the rest of the world, some good, some bad, some fucking pathetic.

That out of no other agenda than pride and patriotism. Which isn't unfounded but without context makes history more a fantasy or fairytale, rather than a place real people lived and died.

People today have never been touched by war like WW2 or the kinds of conflicts that have been met by other nations doorsteps. We are fortunate in that, but it does breed a kind of Nativity on all sides.

Nazi's in some views in the west are considered Savior of the white race and Adolf Hitler some kind of slighted Heroic misunderstood figure. Never mind the reality no matter what you think he was willing to literally let Germany and every Aryan White person burn for his failed vision.

He would kill for his people he wouldn't die for them in their place and that kind of clarity is lost on MANY!

[OrcsRLame]

No the point you made was pretty well spot on.

My response to yours was NOT clear, my point I was specifically applying towards the twitter tweet was about painting with the broad brush being a double edge sword, especially when considering the range from which that tactic is used to cast a wide net, Antifa, BLM, Liberals, Leftwing etc.




Yes and this is a paramount point that should be a neutral zone if you will, nobody owns this idea that any group that unilaterally decides what other people can choose for themselves is a dangerous path to go down.




There is honestly no way to unpack this, I can't say this statement is wrong, I can't say one way or another because this is your perspective. I can only ever be open minded to your reasons for this. I don't think that means you are a Nazi or anything else.




That sounds fucking very reasonable. Because as history has proven sometimes it's easy to be blind sided, in the attempt to combat one kind of evil another can rear it's head.

However without specific context it's hard to respond effectively without painting with the broad brush or we run into the prospect of losing credibility. Because if you call someone say a MONSTER, guess what people are going to check, whether they want to believe it or not.

Nazi's can be easily checked independently by anyone, despite your politics, it's real clear what they represent. Antifa often associated with Communism was pretty much eradicated in any real way in private or public live in the U.S so much so it completely collapsed everywhere else. That really says nothing but Antifa per say, except that if you follow that logic at worse what is the argument.

I ask that honestly, what is the argument concerning Antifa's threat in the U.S




I disagree especially in the U.S here people have a very warped sense of history and our country as it relates to the rest of the world, some good, some bad, some fucking pathetic.

That out of no other agenda than pride and patriotism. Which isn't unfounded but without context makes history more a fantasy or fairytale, rather than a place real people lived and died.

People today have never been touched by war like WW2 or the kinds of conflicts that have been met by other nations doorsteps. We are fortunate in that, but it does breed a kind of Nativity on all sides.

Nazi's in some views in the west are considered Savior of the white race and Adolf Hitler some kind of slighted Heroic misunderstood figure. Never mind the reality no matter what you think he was willing to literally let Germany and every Aryan White person burn for his failed vision.

He would kill for his people he wouldn't die for them in their place and that kind of clarity is lost on MANY!

These last couple posts between us might be the most productive conversation I've had with anyone about this topic ever.

To address your question, what kind of danger do I think Antifa represents. It's tough to pin down. I don't have a crystal ball, I can't see the future. What I can tell you is the mayor of Berkeley has connections with BAMN, By Any Means Necessary, which is an Antifa affiliate group that more or less stands for what the name says. They have people in government, and they got this guy in there without anyone really taking notice, because no one pays attention to local elections. Whenever Antifa talks about power, they talk about it in the institutional sense.

So what would a worst case scenario Antifa victory look like? Well, I think it would look more or less like what a worst case scenario alt-right victory would look like. Revolution. You take a bottom up approach, run for local offices and exploit little holes in the system to try and make sure your guys win. That gets institutional power. From there you exert your power to try and get more power, until you have enough power that opposing you directly becomes difficult. This is also why, to me, Steve Bannon was always intrinsically more dangerous than the rest of the alt-right combined, because he had institutional power. I breathed a sigh of relief when I found out he's no longer working at the White House.

There's also a cultural side to things that rubs me the wrong way with Antifa. I think if they had enough institutional backing to get the authorities to look the other way, these people are not above going after people that they perceive as undesirables. Also, their net will broaden over time; as they run out of enemies to fight they will manufacture new ones rather than disband. Once the Nazis are gone they will go for centrists like me next with things like targeted harassment and "low level" violence.

For the record, the Neo-Nazis would do something similar, but they're less patient and have a little bit different goals. Instead of slowly creeping into power on a nation wide level, they would focus on a single state or set of states, probably Texas, in an attempt to Balkanize the US, so they can have their white ethno state.

Also, you're absolutely right about Nazis and the way people romanticize them. I misspoke. How you need to frame a conversation depends a lot on who you're talking to. If I was speaking to KKK members, I would not be talking about Antifa; I would be attempting to explain to them why Nazis are bad and why their ideas just don't work. I think in general though, that is a very small percentage of the population, enough so that I don't think it's worth worrying about running into them in the wild. MMO-Champion is a very progressive site, so I would not worry about running into any Neo-Nazis here. Maybe there's one or two, but even that would surprise me.

I guess you could say that I'm like a really shitty Socrates. I go hang out with the Progressives and tell them Antifa is bad, then I go hang out with the Neo-Nazis and tell them Nazis are bad. Everyone just loves me.

Just that we can agree on this alone, "That sounds fucking very reasonable. Because as history has proven sometimes it's easy to be blind sided, in the attempt to combat one kind of evil another can rear it's head." means that in the end we are on the same side.

[Jinpachi]

Do you mean there is enough black people for you to peg that bullshit on Black Lives Matter because BLM like a grand amount of things you don't really know what the fuck you are talking about with?

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You mean like the killings done during prohibition, are there any numbers concerning white on white crimes since hard liquor was fucking illegal yet it was everywhere?

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So one picture taken off Twitter a movement makes eh? I just want to make sure that is what you are saying.

Keep it current, stop trying to go off on rabbit trails. Deaths during prohibition are irrelevant to the current political discourse. Show me how many people are murdered(not just deaths, there can be several causes for homicides) yearly since 2000 by kkk/white nationalists/run of the mill good ol' boy racists versus your average murder toll per year in chicago. The numbers will speak for themselves. There's no comparison. This is more fanning of the flames by a corporate controlled media who's owners profit from all of this. Turn off the fucking TV, the computer, and your phone, and go interact with your neighbors.

[Doctor Amadeus]

These last couple posts between us might be the most productive conversation I've had with anyone about this topic ever.

To address your question, what kind of danger do I think Antifa represents. It's tough to pin down. I don't have a crystal ball, I can't see the future. What I can tell you is the mayor of Berkeley has connections with BAMN, By Any Means Necessary, which is an Antifa affiliate group that more or less stands for what the name says. They have people in government, and they got this guy in there without anyone really taking notice, because no one pays attention to local elections. Whenever Antifa talks about power, they talk about it in the institutional sense.

I agree this is a pretty productive dialog, because we are exchanging actual information and just discussing the issue without pushing. But to address your points. When it comes to this day and age just as plenty of others, there is rhetoric, and then their substantive dialog. Most of twitter I am sure you can tell is rhetoric.

I am no more alarmed by Pepe the Frog than I am someone who on the left who can't be bothered to be involved beyond meaningless symbolic gestures. However that doesn't mean at the core of certain groups as their are in any those who's actual motives.

The Jokes however can really be subjective about who's humor is appeased, but over all they can do real damaged if misunderstood. I am guilty of this myself, because in the past I used to joke very often mocking those whose beliefs I found silly, often because I felt they were being just as factious, the problem is what if that one person isn't being sarcastic.

You see it all the time when in a heated enough debate or discussion people ask "Is this person for real" Truth be told it's hard to tell and at this point they might be. However some groups I say have a bigger problem with that, especially because while what they claim to be about in reality means very differently then what they thought it meant, or mean it to mean.

The Left I would say, has a bigger problem with this, the Right not so much.


When someone in a Pepe Frog says something stupid, meh! When someone who looks like the Unite Right say something, that is much more serious. Someone on the left who opposes guns, barely has any skill or a job the same as the right, claim they are going to organize when they can't even fucking show up and vote or act like a damn adult for 5 minutes. Yeah, I wouldn't worry about their range all that much.

So what would a worst case scenario Antifa victory look like? Well, I think it would look more or less like what a worst case scenario alt-right victory would look like. Revolution. You take a bottom up approach, run for local offices and exploit little holes in the system to try and make sure your guys win. That gets institutional power. From there you exert your power to try and get more power, until you have enough power that opposing you directly becomes difficult. This is also why, to me, Steve Bannon was always intrinsically more dangerous than the rest of the alt-right combined, because he had institutional power. I breathed a sigh of relief when I found out he's no longer working at the White House.

Ok try this on, forget the media, forget anything that could be skewed go to the source, if any one group is doing something you know the best way to confirm it?

Go to their website, click on their about and read their own words line by line if you can stomach it, no matter how much you disagree, visit their forums or communities specifically, find out for yourself.

Antifa near as I can tell are pretty none specific other than their hatred for Nazi's and anyone that they would see as not held to their view, purist if you will but not in a ultimately effective way.

Could they be a problem? Maybe, but over all I would say combined with the lack of organization, the over all lack of communication I would say I would be far more concerned about your average street gang.

Alt-Right and Nazi's

On the other hand there are a lot of bullshit sites, but if you go to the direct sites for say the Aryan Brotherhood or the KKK and any of their national front White Supremacist websites, they are very much very organized and very specific about who they hate and why and how to deal with that, who have already gathered intel and arms to back up their ideology, that isn't like Antifa that is more like ISIS.

There's also a cultural side to things that rubs me the wrong way with Antifa. I think if they had enough institutional backing to get the authorities to look the other way, these people are not above going after people that they perceive as undesirables. Also, their net will broaden over time; as they run out of enemies to fight they will manufacture new ones rather than disband. Once the Nazis are gone they will go for centrists like me next with things like targeted harassment and "low level" violence.

Did you actually watch what happened during the Berkeley riots and the reaction that happened and that was directed towards the left by many on the right. Much of it was insane and just as stupid.

But over all that was a black mark for all even sort of associated, and when the counter protesters showed up, and clashed by grabbing some of them and giving them wedgies, let's just say FEAR was not the thing that was instilled. Nor Inspiration from ANYONE.

For the record, the Neo-Nazis would do something similar, but they're less patient and have a little bit different goals. Instead of slowly creeping into power on a nation wide level, they would focus on a single state or set of states, probably Texas, in an attempt to Balkanize the US, so they can have their white ethno state.

Also, you're absolutely right about Nazis and the way people romanticize them. I misspoke. How you need to frame a conversation depends a lot on who you're talking to. If I was speaking to KKK members, I would not be talking about Antifa; I would be attempting to explain to them why Nazis are bad and why their ideas just don't work. I think in general though, that is a very small percentage of the population, enough so that I don't think it's worth worrying about running into them in the wild. MMO-Champion is a very progressive site, so I would not worry about running into any Neo-Nazis here. Maybe there's one or two, but even that would surprise me.

I have met and known some White Supremacist and Neo Nazi's and there is a big difference between guys like them and some of the clownish soft counter parts. And honestly it all serves their cause. But make no mistake their ultimate goal has nothing to do with everybody dancing staying at the party for long.

The same could be said for many other groups a lot more serious than many imagine. But the problem is people can tend to take that lightly so when you say for instance what you do about Antifa, Don't get me wrong I don't dismiss that at all and now you know my reasons for not.

There can really be a true threat behind what is typically scene, as I stated in another blog, I am guessing the guy that hit those 20 people and killed the one girl, he might be calibrated by some, but I wouldn't put it based others to target and kill him.

This is a war to them that Alt Right Neo Nazi Rally was a cluster fuck, and ruined the work of many who really are trying to sell the image that Nazi's are something different than before.

It wasn't what he did, it's when he did it and what it cost everybody else in that group.


So I would say the same would be true for the Berkley Riots if Antifa were the threat you speak too. That was also a cluster fuck.


or even with BLM, cops getting shot and killed, yep same thing. The problem now for Alt Right and Neo Nazi's is they once used to point and use those examples, now they are dealing with a bit of a problem in the same vain themselves.

That doesn't mean either are the same, or the same threat, but by every measure from the serious to the absurd, that is where we are. So as I said break it down, don't believe one is worse for different reasons because I said so.

People will explore themselves, and here is what sucks for all involved regardless to the face or front people are going to explore and find out. Those that are made to be a bigger threat than they are, are going to be ignored.

But those that can be verified as being a bigger threat going forward that is something they can't simply smile away.

As to not worrying about running into Neo Nazi's here on MMO Champion I am sure there are plenty as there are in every day life, however some are critically fucking stupid and easy to identify no matter what they do, and some actually have an I.Q about a single digit, and you wouldn't recognize them because unless pushed or stressed they will blend right in, just like ISIS or some of the other tactics people are well aware of.

I guess you could say that I'm like a really shitty Socrates. I go hang out with the Progressives and tell them Antifa is bad, then I go hang out with the Neo-Nazis and tell them Nazis are bad. Everyone just loves me.

Just that we can agree on this alone, "That sounds fucking very reasonable. Because as history has proven sometimes it's easy to be blind sided, in the attempt to combat one kind of evil another can rear it's head." means that in the end we are on the same side.

Well that is prudent and reasonable, but I think it is much better than hearing someone telling you they are a liberal or progressive, is them telling you why they are. Because the truth is no matter who you ask they will have trouble answering that.

Any group you are in if you find yourself surrounded by that, there is a problem. It matters knowing what things are and where they come from.

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Keep it current, stop trying to go off on rabbit trails. Deaths during prohibition are irrelevant to the current political discourse. Show me how many people are murdered(not just deaths, there can be several causes for homicides) yearly since 2000 by kkk/white nationalists/run of the mill good ol' boy racists versus your average murder toll per year in chicago. The numbers will speak for themselves. There's no comparison. This is more fanning of the flames by a corporate controlled media who's owners profit from all of this. Turn off the fucking TV, the computer, and your phone, and go interact with your neighbors.

Well unfortunately deaths during the prohibition may be irrelevant to you, but they aren't irrelevant to the issue of what the state of Illinois has always meant, and why Chicago and it's history is the way it is.

Hell corruption has been so high in Chicago entire precincts have been closed DOWN, when the police don't act any better than your average criminal, and the over site is pathetic what do you expect.

That isn't even just race, but race plays a part in it because where do you think those precincts were, sure isn't more affluent sides of Chicago. You also have to consider where Chicago is in terms of it's geography and compare that to similar cities and the surroundings.

You are on to something in terms of turning it all off and interacting with ones neighbors, however that is difficult to do, when police are no better than those they should protect you from and view you hardly any better.

[OrcsRLame]

I agree this is a pretty productive dialog, because we are exchanging actual information and just discussing the issue without pushing. But to address your points. When it comes to this day and age just as plenty of others, there is rhetoric, and then their substantive dialog. Most of twitter I am sure you can tell is rhetoric.

I am no more alarmed by Pepe the Frog than I am someone who on the left who can't be bothered to be involved beyond meaningless symbolic gestures. However that doesn't mean at the core of certain groups as their are in any those who's actual motives.

The Jokes however can really be subjective about who's humor is appeased, but over all they can do real damaged if misunderstood. I am guilty of this myself, because in the past I used to joke very often mocking those whose beliefs I found silly, often because I felt they were being just as factious, the problem is what if that one person isn't being sarcastic.

You see it all the time when in a heated enough debate or discussion people ask "Is this person for real" Truth be told it's hard to tell and at this point they might be. However some groups I say have a bigger problem with that, especially because while what they claim to be about in reality means very differently then what they thought it meant, or mean it to mean.

The Left I would say, has a bigger problem with this, the Right not so much.


When someone in a Pepe Frog says something stupid, meh! When someone who looks like the Unite Right say something, that is much more serious. Someone on the left who opposes guns, barely has any skill or a job the same as the right, claim they are going to organize when they can't even fucking show up and vote or act like a damn adult for 5 minutes. Yeah, I wouldn't worry about their range all that much.




Ok try this on, forget the media, forget anything that could be skewed go to the source, if any one group is doing something you know the best way to confirm it?

Go to their website, click on their about and read their own words line by line if you can stomach it, no matter how much you disagree, visit their forums or communities specifically, find out for yourself.

Antifa near as I can tell are pretty none specific other than their hatred for Nazi's and anyone that they would see as not held to their view, purist if you will but not in a ultimately effective way.

Could they be a problem? Maybe, but over all I would say combined with the lack of organization, the over all lack of communication I would say I would be far more concerned about your average street gang.

Alt-Right and Nazi's

On the other hand there are a lot of bullshit sites, but if you go to the direct sites for say the Aryan Brotherhood or the KKK and any of their national front White Supremacist websites, they are very much very organized and very specific about who they hate and why and how to deal with that, who have already gathered intel and arms to back up their ideology, that isn't like Antifa that is more like ISIS.





Did you actually watch what happened during the Berkeley riots and the reaction that happened and that was directed towards the left by many on the right. Much of it was insane and just as stupid.

But over all that was a black mark for all even sort of associated, and when the counter protesters showed up, and clashed by grabbing some of them and giving them wedgies, let's just say FEAR was not the thing that was instilled. Nor Inspiration from ANYONE.





I have met and known some White Supremacist and Neo Nazi's and there is a big difference between guys like them and some of the clownish soft counter parts. And honestly it all serves their cause. But make no mistake their ultimate goal has nothing to do with everybody dancing staying at the party for long.

The same could be said for many other groups a lot more serious than many imagine. But the problem is people can tend to take that lightly so when you say for instance what you do about Antifa, Don't get me wrong I don't dismiss that at all and now you know my reasons for not.

There can really be a true threat behind what is typically scene, as I stated in another blog, I am guessing the guy that hit those 20 people and killed the one girl, he might be calibrated by some, but I wouldn't put it based others to target and kill him.

This is a war to them that Alt Right Neo Nazi Rally was a cluster fuck, and ruined the work of many who really are trying to sell the image that Nazi's are something different than before.

It wasn't what he did, it's when he did it and what it cost everybody else in that group.


So I would say the same would be true for the Berkley Riots if Antifa were the threat you speak too. That was also a cluster fuck.


or even with BLM, cops getting shot and killed, yep same thing. The problem now for Alt Right and Neo Nazi's is they once used to point and use those examples, now they are dealing with a bit of a problem in the same vain themselves.

That doesn't mean either are the same, or the same threat, but by every measure from the serious to the absurd, that is where we are. So as I said break it down, don't believe one is worse for different reasons because I said so.

People will explore themselves, and here is what sucks for all involved regardless to the face or front people are going to explore and find out. Those that are made to be a bigger threat than they are, are going to be ignored.

But those that can be verified as being a bigger threat going forward that is something they can't simply smile away.

As to not worrying about running into Neo Nazi's here on MMO Champion I am sure there are plenty as there are in every day life, however some are critically fucking stupid and easy to identify no matter what they do, and some actually have an I.Q about a single digit, and you wouldn't recognize them because unless pushed or stressed they will blend right in, just like ISIS or some of the other tactics people are well aware of.





Well that is prudent and reasonable, but I think it is much better than hearing someone telling you they are a liberal or progressive, is them telling you why they are. Because the truth is no matter who you ask they will have trouble answering that.

Any group you are in if you find yourself surrounded by that, there is a problem. It matters knowing what things are and where they come from.

- - - Updated - - -



Well unfortunately deaths during the prohibition may be irrelevant to you, but they aren't irrelevant to the issue of what the state of Illinois has always meant, and why Chicago and it's history is the way it is.

Hell corruption has been so high in Chicago entire precincts have been closed DOWN, when the police don't act any better than your average criminal, and the over site is pathetic what do you expect.

That isn't even just race, but race plays a part in it because where do you think those precincts were, sure isn't more affluent sides of Chicago. You also have to consider where Chicago is in terms of it's geography and compare that to similar cities and the surroundings.

You are on to something in terms of turning it all off and interacting with ones neighbors, however that is difficult to do, when police are no better than those they should protect you from and view you hardly any better.

I don't really find anything that I disagree with in your post except for one thing. I think in the case of Antifa, I don't think they are a reliable source for what they will do next, because I don't think they have thought that far ahead. Let me unpack that. You are completely right with how you have characterized them. When it comes to dealing with radical groups, I like to think in terms of what they will do once they achieve their goals. There is a question that we as humans ask ourselves many times throughout our lives, "What now?"

I worry about that with Antifa in particular, because if they were going to be fully ideologically consistent, then if they ever run out of fascists to protest and fight against, their group should disband. The war is over, we can all go home now. Humans just don't think like that though, and people that have tasted power are loathe to give it up, and there is power in group solidarity and purpose. I think at that point the natural group think that emerges will agree that no matter what, the group itself must be preserved, even if preserving the group doesn't make any sense because its purpose has been fulfilled. That is when Antifa will take on a new form with new goals, and that is when their dangerous potential will be realized.

Of course all that is predicated on the idea of Antifa winning against the Neo-Nazis, and I honestly have no idea how that fight is gonna go. I think those of us that care about typical American values, good in the moral landscape sense, need to pay close attention to how this unfolds.

One thing I want to put into perspective btw. There are 323 million people in the US. There are 8000 KKK members. Another 50-100k alt-right members, and a handful of other white identitarian groups. That is a really really small percentage of the population. Less than 1 in 1000 people. I suspect Antifa has similar numbers. This isn't to say that these groups aren't dangerous, but that is what I meant when I said you're unlikely to just run into them. It's statistically unlikely. Obviously you'll find them if you go looking for them, but in any given interaction it's logical to assume that the person you're looking at is not Antifa or a Neo-Nazi.

[Livnthedream]

I think I am getting the hang of your nuance.

So you get that is the very thing I am mocking? Good to know!

Even if Hitler said it, the statement is still correct.

It's one of those cases where politicians pretend to be one thing to get the support of the people and then once they're in power they give the middle finger to all their false promises. Trump is no different with his promise of a wall and repealing Obamacare and everything else.

This is what you actually believe!

[Doctor Amadeus]

I don't really find anything that I disagree with in your post except for one thing. I think in the case of Antifa, I don't think they are a reliable source for what they will do next, because I don't think they have thought that far ahead. Let me unpack that. You are completely right with how you have characterized them. When it comes to dealing with radical groups, I like to think in terms of what they will do once they achieve their goals. There is a question that we as humans ask ourselves many times throughout our lives, "What now?"

Very likely, compared to Neo Nazi's or hell ISIS here in the U.S they are unknown. They are left win to my understanding but, those that I have seen or known about I am not sure, they seem more Anarchist Libertarian. I am neither I would say I left and liberal authoritarian, in nature as opposed to lawlessness and chaos. Been pegged as regressive or Neo Liberal by these types so there you have it.

I worry about that with Antifa in particular, because if they were going to be fully ideologically consistent, then if they ever run out of fascists to protest and fight against, their group should disband. The war is over, we can all go home now. Humans just don't think like that though, and people that have tasted power are loathe to give it up, and there is power in group solidarity and purpose. I think at that point the natural group think that emerges will agree that no matter what, the group itself must be preserved, even if preserving the group doesn't make any sense because its purpose has been fulfilled. That is when Antifa will take on a new form with new goals, and that is when their dangerous potential will be realized.

Which is why I don't preclude them as being a threat, just because their method seems chaotic to me or disorganized that doesn't mean I am right about them being the threat I see them as.

I mean street gangs have a certain advantage over organized crime so to speak, easier to might something with one head, or limbs. Not as easy when you have redundancies and clusters of cells that over all are larger and not as easily seen. There are weaknesses with that too such as the Chaotic nature.

Street gangs from the same sets or gangs can target the same. Some can be pegged by others as not legitimate in either Organized Crime or a Street Gang but as I said sometimes that can just leave those with a lot more to prove, meaning they are willing to do very real harm regardless to their legitimacy.

Antifa could work this way, but I've seen no signs of any of that, near as I can tell they are simply mobilizes political group that protest often times along with other groups.

Of course all that is predicated on the idea of Antifa winning against the Neo-Nazis, and I honestly have no idea how that fight is gonna go. I think those of us that care about typical American values, good in the moral landscape sense, need to pay close attention to how this unfolds.

One thing I want to put into perspective btw. There are 323 million people in the US. There are 8000 KKK members. Another 50-100k alt-right members, and a handful of other white identitarian groups. That is a really really small percentage of the population. Less than 1 in 1000 people. I suspect Antifa has similar numbers. This isn't to say that these groups aren't dangerous, but that is what I meant when I said you're unlikely to just run into them. It's statistically unlikely. Obviously you'll find them if you go looking for them, but in any given interaction it's logical to assume that the person you're looking at is not Antifa or a Neo-Nazi.

Street gangs as MS13 have swelled to no more than I would say 100,000 tops which is like double of most Street gangs, but even against say an entire state of millions that can be enough.

Go ahead and look up any war in the last couple decades or century. We aren't talking millions on either side per say, we are talking thousands. Most of the military rankings, the number of active and non active members are generally in the millions and that is for some of the top military forces, however numbers alone don't tell the whole story.

It also matters WHO and where certain individuals that are members are, say like Gang Members who infiltrate a Police department, Mob soldiers who either make it on to the FBI, or have influence over former neighbors friends families. Take Whitey Bulgar right as a pretty damn good example.


You need organizations
You need dedication
and you need sacrifice those

Those are the hallmarks of any entity, with a single motive. Antifa what are they willing to give up, how organized are they, or any other group, how about the Alt-Right or Neo Nazi's?


Answer that, follow the patterns I said, separate what is real from the rhetoric there you will have your threat certainly depending on who you are and where you stand as it relates to what you see or rather discover.

[Ragedaug]

If groups like antifa were around back in the 30s & 40s, there might have not been a holocaust.

Its real simple, anyone that supports groups that embrace the holocaust or the people that caused the holocaust, need to be met with equal force.If the NeoNazi's show up in armor and weapons and performing paramilitary drills, then they need to be attacked.

Never again.

Missed this post. Yeah, so Antifa did exist in the 30's. Leftist/Communist violence to political opposition helped lead to the rise of the Nazi movement and to the rise in power of Hitler. So yeah, pretty much exactly the opposite of what you think is going to happen actually did happen.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifaschistische_Aktion
The first German movement to call itself Antifaschistische Aktion was proclaimed by the German Communist Party (KPD) in their newspaper Rote Fahne in 1932 and held its first rally in Berlin on 10 July 1932

Some in the media have called Swedish AFA left extremists. An editorial in the tabloid newspaper Expressen argued that the label 'anti-fascist' was misleading, because the organization's methods, such as stealing the subscriber list of the National Democrats newspaper, and threatening the subscribers are counterproductive and similar to methods used by fascists



"World War I ended through a massive revolution that started in a Naval mutiny and resulted in the abdication of the Kaiser, as well as a Bavarian insurrection that deposed the local government and established a “Soviet” led by anarchists and communists. Having voted to enter the war, the Social Democrats rose to power through popular left-wing sentiment and compromises with the far right—in particular, the Freikorps, a paramilitary force of army veterans who the Social Democrats would deploy to brutally crush a Communist uprising in Berlin led by Rosa Luxemberg and Karl Liebknecht and the Bavarian Soviet, as well as a renewed uprising in the industrial Ruhr Valley led by a militant force calling itself the Red Army of the Ruhr. It was only after the defeat of these three significant left-wing revolutionary uprisings that Hitler would rise in a beerhall in Munich and pretend to lead a “national revolution” of Freikorps and other paramilitary rightist factions under Nazi guidance."

German Political Militias 1919-1933
Weimar Era Private Militias - Violence Takes to the streets

As the Weimar Republic began to unravel and the Great depression deepen, political violence became more and more prevalent in the streets of Germany as extremists from both the far left and right tried to disrupt the political demonstrations of their rivals. Both sides at first justified organizing their private non-governmental armies for protection and security, but soon began using them for enforcement of their violent political programs. Small and large flag waving gangs roomed the streets, often colliding their rival groups, in this extremely violent era of civil disobedience. These politically organized militias made the streets a battlefield, while the powerless police and government seemed to only look on helplessly.
This violence, helplessness, and discord soon provided the perfect breeding ground for the raise of the National Socialist German Workers Party and eventually the Third Reich



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cable_Street - 1936
An estimated 20,000 anti-fascist demonstrators turned out, and were met by 6,000 police, who attempted to clear the road to permit the march of 2,000–3,000 fascists to proceed^. The demonstrators fought back with sticks, rocks, chair legs and other improvised weapons. Rubbish, rotten vegetables and the contents of chamber pots were thrown at the police... Around 175 people were injured including police, women and children

[Bodakane]

Missed this post. Yeah, so Antifa did exist in the 30's. Leftist/Communist violence to political opposition helped lead to the rise of the Nazi movement and to the rise in power of Hitler. So yeah, pretty much exactly the opposite of what you think is going to happen actually did happen.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifaschistische_Aktion
The first German movement to call itself Antifaschistische Aktion was proclaimed by the German Communist Party (KPD) in their newspaper Rote Fahne in 1932 and held its first rally in Berlin on 10 July 1932

Some in the media have called Swedish AFA left extremists. An editorial in the tabloid newspaper Expressen argued that the label 'anti-fascist' was misleading, because the organization's methods, such as stealing the subscriber list of the National Democrats newspaper, and threatening the subscribers are counterproductive and similar to methods used by fascists



"World War I ended through a massive revolution that started in a Naval mutiny and resulted in the abdication of the Kaiser, as well as a Bavarian insurrection that deposed the local government and established a “Soviet” led by anarchists and communists. Having voted to enter the war, the Social Democrats rose to power through popular left-wing sentiment and compromises with the far right—in particular, the Freikorps, a paramilitary force of army veterans who the Social Democrats would deploy to brutally crush a Communist uprising in Berlin led by Rosa Luxemberg and Karl Liebknecht and the Bavarian Soviet, as well as a renewed uprising in the industrial Ruhr Valley led by a militant force calling itself the Red Army of the Ruhr. It was only after the defeat of these three significant left-wing revolutionary uprisings that Hitler would rise in a beerhall in Munich and pretend to lead a “national revolution” of Freikorps and other paramilitary rightist factions under Nazi guidance."

German Political Militias 1919-1933
Weimar Era Private Militias - Violence Takes to the streets

As the Weimar Republic began to unravel and the Great depression deepen, political violence became more and more prevalent in the streets of Germany as extremists from both the far left and right tried to disrupt the political demonstrations of their rivals. Both sides at first justified organizing their private non-governmental armies for protection and security, but soon began using them for enforcement of their violent political programs. Small and large flag waving gangs roomed the streets, often colliding their rival groups, in this extremely violent era of civil disobedience. These politically organized militias made the streets a battlefield, while the powerless police and government seemed to only look on helplessly.
This violence, helplessness, and discord soon provided the perfect breeding ground for the raise of the National Socialist German Workers Party and eventually the Third Reich



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cable_Street - 1936
An estimated 20,000 anti-fascist demonstrators turned out, and were met by 6,000 police, who attempted to clear the road to permit the march of 2,000–3,000 fascists to proceed^. The demonstrators fought back with sticks, rocks, chair legs and other improvised weapons. Rubbish, rotten vegetables and the contents of chamber pots were thrown at the police... Around 175 people were injured including police, women and children

That is like saying the Republican Party of Trump is the same as the Republican Party of Lincoln.