Too many "Evil" and "Good" classes. Time for something more neutral?

[Kralljin]

Necromancers are far more capable in that regard. Does Kel'Thuzad ring a bell for you?
As I said, they will remain prefect anti-paladins with Unholy though.

I don't remember Kel'thuzad raising a Dragon.

[WhiteEagle888]

I don't remember Kel'thuzad raising a Dragon.

Wow your arguments are getting more and more edgy.
Necromancer literally means handler of death - even before wow was created he raised the dead and death knights were anti-paladins. The fact that DKs raise the dead now instead of necromancers is that they are not in yet. As soon as they will however, that will change also.

[Deleted]

we see gul'dan do it in the audio drama, he's there in the tomb, there's nothing around to sacrifice, yet he's flinging fel fire at khadgar

Yes, because lorewise warlocks store multiple souls in soul shards and use them to fuel their spells. That's why they don't have to actively kill something to use fel.

And they can also use their own life force if need be.

edit: Of course using your own life force isn't exactly evil and using the life force of bad people or demons could be considered good.

Still, the paladins and priests don't seem to like it.

[mickybrighteyes]

No, it's jointly used By Void, Death and Fel.

Then what's the difference?

The affliction specialization has been the premiere wasting away spec since before the blatant death themed unholy side of death knights (which is entirely death imbued). If they are still 'shadow' and using the same principles... why even bother making them distinctly different categorizations?

[WhiteEagle888]

Then what's the difference?

The affliction specialization has been the premiere wasting away spec since before the blatant death themed unholy side of death knights (which is entirely death imbued). If they are still 'shadow' and using the same principles... why even bother making them distinctly different categorizations?

Death focuses on death. - Lawful Evil
Fel focuses on chaos and destruction - Chaotic Evil
Void focuses on everything that make up the two - True Evil / Neutral Evil

And I wouldn't bother categorizing them along these liens either, but fact is they use what they use. Some directly form the void - shadow priest, others use death aspect - necromancer, still others fel aspect - warlock.

[mickybrighteyes]

Death focuses on death. - Lawful Evil
Fel focuses on chaos and destruction - Chaotic Evil
Void focuses on everything that make up the two - True Evil / Neutral Evil

but the image you brought in shows Fel and Death as different existences beyond void and on the same level as void. This explanation would suggest that Fel and and death are subjects within the scope of void instead.

Maybe that image isn't exactly the best way to showcase the powers of the universe then.

[Kralljin]

Wow your arguments are getting more and more edgy.
Necromancer literally means handler of death - even before wow was created he raised the dead and death knights were anti-paladins. The fact that DKs raise the dead now instead of necromancers is that they are not in yet. As soon as they will however, that will change also.

The problem is still that raising the dead has been a key aspect of Death Knight but in lore and ingame.

Arthas raised multiple characters into his service, the entire death knight campaign is about that the Deathlord raises dead people into his service, the Ghoul pet is a central element of Unholy's gameplay, Army of the dead is a signature spell.

Death Knights were not just "Anti-Paladins" they've been raising dead people since Warcraft 3, and the Warcraft 3 Death Knight is the foundation for the WoW Death Knight.

They won't remove the whole disease / Undead aspect from Unholy just to let Necromancer happen, Death Knights are the playable incarnation of Necromancers in WoW.

[WhiteEagle888]

but the image you brought in shows Fel and Death as different existences beyond void and on the same level as void. This explanation would suggest that Fel and and death are subjects within the scope of void instead.

Maybe that image isn't exactly the best way to showcase the powers of the universe then.

Death and feL are nowhere near the magnitude of Void - it's very easy to misinterpret it though without the proper knowledge. I give you that, and you did just that.
As Holy is the source of Life and Order.
But these two powers Light and Void are older than anything else.

- - - Updated - - -

The problem is still that raising the dead has been a key aspect of Death Knight but in lore and ingame.

Arthas raised multiple characters into his service, the entire death knight campaign is about that the Deathlord raises dead people into his service, the Ghoul pet is a central element of Unholy's gameplay, Army of the dead is a signature spell.

Death Knights were not just "Anti-Paladins" they've been raising dead people since Warcraft 3, and the Warcraft 3 Death Knight is the foundation for the WoW Death Knight.

They won't remove the whole disease / Undead aspect from Unholy just to let Necromancer happen, Death Knights are the playable incarnation of Necromancers in WoW.

They are not the playable incarnation of necromancers, if they were they'd wear cloth and have a staff.
So yeah a split will happen if they introduce Necro whether you like it or not. And this spilt will be Unholy redesign - antipaladin and necromancer undead minion

[Deleted]

Think about it... DK, DH, Rogue, Warlock, Shadow Priest - they're all rooted in deep darkness - fel / legion, scourge / undead and void.

There's plenty currently to balance this out too, almost to where the 'good' classes are counterpoint to the evil - Paladin, Druid, Monk, Mage and I suppose Holy/Disc Priest.


So what's left? Warrior, Hunter, Shaman are all left somewhere in the middle - notably all much more strongly identified with horde than ally.


What would fill the void? Would it be good to have something down to earth rather than yet another super nautral?

I would say every class is neutral. If you do the class quests you'll see that even Warlocks are shown as heroes and what Death Knights are doing might be a bit on the fringe, but is justifiable.

[Kralljin]

They are not the playable incarnation of necromancers, if they were they'd wear cloth and have a staff.
So yeah a split will happen if they introduce Necro whether you like it or not.

Believe what ever you want, if you think Necromancer becomes a class, fine, whatever, but i have serious doubts that Necromancer will become a class in WoW.

Mostly because we already have an "evil" caster that uses DoT's and minions.

[mickybrighteyes]

Death and feL are nowhere near the magnitude of Void - it's very easy to misinterpret it though without the proper knowledge. I give you that, and you did just that.
As Holy is the source of Life and Order.
But these two powers Light and Void are older than anything else.

I think it's just the next fotm... the new big bad on the horizon that's worse than we've ever known.... but that's just me, sitting back and watching the outcome of yet another retcon.

So now light is the new bastion of order instead of arcane?

I think the 'magnitude' is thus far limited to what's been shown and thus we can't fathom such things. If they're showing such diagrams and trying to push that as the new canon than it seems that there are still areas that need to be explained.

[Deleted]

In my opinion, in terms of whether the power they use is "good" or "evil":

Good - Paladin, Priest, Monk, Druid
Neutral - Warrior, Hunter, Shaman
Evil - Warlock, Death Knight, Demon Hunter, Rogue

That seems prefectly balanced between "good" and "evil" to me.

[WhiteEagle888]

I think it's just the next fotm... the new big bad on the horizon that's worse than we've ever known.... but that's just me, sitting back and watching the outcome of yet another retcon.

So now light is the new bastion of order instead of arcane?

I think the 'magnitude' is thus far limited to what's been shown and thus we can't fathom such things. If they're showing such diagrams and trying to push that as the new canon than it seems that there are still areas that need to be explained.

The Light is above Order - It is Good - Neutral Good if you will
Arcane is still Order - an aspect of Good, other Aspect is Life - chaotic good
Light is above all - Creation and Benevolence itself in WoW Universe - maybe even above darkness as darkness is said to have come into being in places where there was no Light at the beginning of creation as a sort of antithesis against Light.

- - - Updated - - -

In my opinion, in terms of whether the power they use is "good" or "evil":

Good - Paladin, Priest, Monk, Druid
Neutral - Warrior, Hunter, Shaman
Evil - Warlock, Death Knight, Demon Hunter, Rogue

That seems prefectly balanced between "good" and "evil" to me.

Exactly - I don't know if I would categorize Mage as good or neutral - because there exists an arcane order which is undoubtedly Good and the mage follows this order in his deeds.
But the mage always imposes his own will on this arcane order, thereby creating a state of being which selfishly suits the mage's needs.
So more often than not I'd categorize mages as being neutral in manipulating an arcane order albeit using it for good most of the time unlike warlocks.

[Evaddon]

Anything can be used for good or evil. It depends who has it, and what they use it for my friend.

[IgnisVenom]

Death, void, and shadow have multiple references for themselves existing, all use the classification 'shadow'. But we don't have death knights or rogues noted for 'void' magic. Hell, prior to legion there were exactly zero references to void magic among the playable characters and rogues themselves were in a grey area for 'magical' ability (as in they didn't have anything for the longest until they finally got certain QoL skills baseline).

I can accapt that void = shadow if there were some real final say on it that wasn't just fan theory. As it stands... I can only see it as separate entities using the same classification for the purposes of game mechanics. Similar to why druids have 2 schools of 'nature' magic (one being arcane) so they don't get fucked over because of an interrupt.

From WoWPedia:

The Void (also referred to as Shadow) and the Light are the most fundamental forces in existence. Although contradictory by their very nature, they are bound together on a cosmic scale. One cannot exist without the other. Pure Light and Shadow dwell in realms outside the borders of reality. Pure Light and Shadow dwell in realms outside the borders of reality. Dimensius the All-Devouring opened gateways to the Void and the Twisting Nether when he invaded K'aresh.[1] However, shades of their presence are found in the physical universe: Light manifests as holy magic, while the Void appears as shadow magic.[2]

Source: Chronicle, Volume 1, 16 on e-book.

[Lord Pebbleton]

Warriors and hunters related more to horde? If anything, they are equally related to both factions. Muradin, Varian, Danath, Alleria, even Fargo Flintlocke all come to mind.
Shamans have been a iconic horde class so of course they are more on that side, just like alliance has all the coolest paladins (Uther, Arthas, Bolvar; another notable human is Tirion).

[Benomatic]

I remember you that the Scarlet Crusade are mainly paladins and disc/holy priests and they are assholes. In the other hand, there are lots of shadow priests defeating the legion. The goodness of a character is defined by his story, not class, thought it may have influence. Druids of the flame were not good druids. And mages? Can I remember you all the blue dragonflight problem, or Kael'thas?. The class fantasy may be "darker" or "lighter" but each character has own intentions.

Many warriors, hunters make up the SC!

[huth]

Unholy will be redesigned to be an anti-paladin DoTs afflictions and so on

They already have those. That's not a re-design. For that matter, there's been no indication that Necromancers are coming. You're letting your headcanon cloud your view of reality again.

no... death spells are still 'shadow' mechanically.

edit:
so which 'shadow' do warlocks utilize?

You're confusing game mechanics with lore. Shadow spell school just means that this spell can't be used if your shadow spells got locked out and targets the shadow resistance stat, not that it is somehow connected to the void.



As for the thread topic, none of the classes have inherent morality anymore than a hammer does. At most, Death Knights have an easy time slipping off towards evil, but it's always the character, not the class, that is such. They must inflict suffering, but it isn't by choice to do so, so the act isn't evil as such. Now, if a Death Knight revels in inflicting suffering on others, that's a different deal.

[WhiteEagle888]

They already have those. That's not a re-design. For that matter, there's been no indication that Necromancers are coming. You're letting your headcanon cloud your view of reality again.

I said if they are coming, you really need to learn to learn to pay attention before posting. Or learn that "if" doesn't mean "when". Maybe that's the problem with you.

[Queen of Hamsters]

... Is this the condition known as "reverse Edgelordism"...?

I don't see my characters as evil or good based on class... In the end, they're all involved in SAVING Azeroth...