"Link AOTC KJ or no invite"

[HeiAggra]

he is not wrong though - he pays the sub so as paying customer he can provide feedback - and his one is that he is unsatisfied with the product he bought - the more unsatisfied clients the less subs .

I understand what you mean but you are wrong.
The product has nothing to do with him getting invited or not!

[effs]

Don't worry, soon this thread will become 'Link AOTC ARGUS or unsub'.

Honestly, these achivements just need to be removed. No good comes from them.

[Deleted]

he is not wrong though - he pays the sub so as paying customer he can provide feedback - and his one is that he is unsatisfied with the product he bought - the more unsatisfied clients the less subs .

Its a multiplayer experience. Its not Blizzards fault that he is antisocial and people wont play with him

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Don't worry, soon this thread will become 'Link AOTC ARGUS or unsub'.

Honestly, these achivements just need to be removed. No good comes from them.

What a flawed assumption. Before achievements it was just Ilvl. People will make up barriers for noobs no matter what you do when it comes to pugs.

Achievements are great

[HeiAggra]

What a flawed assumption. Before achievements it was just Ilvl. People will make up barriers for noobs no matter what you do when it comes to pugs.
Achievements are great

True it's not the achivememts fault that WOW became a shitty community!

[effs]

What a flawed assumption. Before achievements it was just Ilvl. People will make up barriers for noobs no matter what you do when it comes to pugs.

Achievements are great

People are using ilvl as a measurement anyway and they're both as bad as each other. Both can be gained through either luck (well ilvl anyway) or a boost and can be faked. So the achievements really have no value. I've been in many groups where the majority of players have AOTC, but wipe very easily.

But my original first point was...each tier/raid we see the same threads.

[HeiAggra]

People are using ilvl as a measurement anyway and they're both as bad as each other. Both can be gained through either luck (well ilvl anyway) or a boost and can be faked. So the achievements really have no value. I've been in many groups where the majority of players have AOTC, but wipe very easily.

The problem is not the wippes! Is that the ppl want to be carried. After 2 or 3 wippes you see a mass disband instead of understanding what went wrong and try to solve it.

[effs]

The problem is not the wippes! Is that the ppl want to be carried. After 2 or 3 wippes you see a mass disband instead of understanding what went wrong and try to solve it.

That's another problem xD some players don't want to put in the effort to kill the boss.

[HeiAggra]

That's another problem xD some players don't want to put in the effort to kill the boss.

Exactly mate. For me that is the main issue in WOW now. The player community.

[Deleted]

People are using ilvl as a measurement anyway and they're both as bad as each other. Both can be gained through either luck (well ilvl anyway) or a boost and can be faked. So the achievements really have no value. I've been in many groups where the majority of players have AOTC, but wipe very easily.

But my original first point was...each tier/raid we see the same threads.

THey have plenty of value for people in an actual community. They dont have value for random scrubs who arent in a guild. But honestly. Why the fuck even pay for a sub then?

AOTC is obviously not a "get through for free" card. However having a full raid of AOTC vs a full raid without it - the full raid with AOTC will in general get further.

[effs]

Exactly mate. For me that is the main issue in WOW now. The player community.

One of the reasons I've been unsubbed until 7.3. Started getting into FF14, which is great.

[HeiAggra]

One of the reasons I've been unsubbed until 7.3. Started getting into FF14, which is great.

Well thats why i raid in a guild with my friends! This way i avoid most of the toxic players. Simple and effective.

[david0925]

People are using ilvl as a measurement anyway and they're both as bad as each other. Both can be gained through either luck (well ilvl anyway) or a boost and can be faked. So the achievements really have no value. I've been in many groups where the majority of players have AOTC, but wipe very easily.

But my original first point was...each tier/raid we see the same threads.

Logs can be padded too. By your logic every single vetting system should be disregarded because there are ways around them, especially if the person vetting is not capable.

Having an easy-to-access vetting system (this isn't what AoTC is, but it is being used as one because of what you need to do to get it) that has issues, isn't itself an issue. That just means you need to compliment it with different method to be more fool proof. Higher ilvl doesn't necessarily mean the player has better progression, but the trending is strong. People need to stop looking at the extremes or playing devil's advocate, and actually look at the likelihood of said extremes. This is the same with TF/WF (i'm not a fan of the system either, but read on), people always make the polar example of "people in LFR/Normal/Heroic will get better gear than mythic raider just from RNG". Sure, that can happen, but if you actually look at guild based on progression, both current and past, you can see that on average the mythic raiders are still a solid 10 ilvls ahead of heroic guilds.

In short, ilvl and AoTC are not foolproof but are far better initial filters than you guys give it credit for.

[Deleted]

Thisll sounmd weird, but KJ curve group requirement is usually a shit group anyway. Most people buy their curves, and I know this as a person that makes a ton of groups. Having curve don't mean shit, I've had people with 3-4 KJ kills still not know how to do the fight. Its irrelevant, only problem is joining groups without it, but that is easily solved by making your own.

[david0925]

Thisll sounmd weird, but KJ curve group requirement is usually a shit group anyway. Most people buy their curves, and I know this as a person that makes a ton of groups. Having curve don't mean shit, I've had people with 3-4 KJ kills still not know how to do the fight. Its irrelevant, only problem is joining groups without it, but that is easily solved by making your own.

I agree that making your own group and intelligently vet it is the best way.

I think you would have a higher chance of having a better quality group with AoTC if you are just comparing people with and without AoTC though.

[Deleted]

I understand what you mean, but try forming a few groups and you will very quickly learn that people are bad at this game, curve, no curve, mythics, just flat out shit. Buncha first Mythic bosses are a joke, but people think they mean anything.

Most curves today are bought, that is a fact and as soon as you get behind that you can start forming groups in a better fashion. Its more use to look at armory profiles and see how much of the older content the character has ran. A person with e.g. 30Guldan HC kills, even though he doesn't have KJ Curve, is likely a competent player possibly coming back from a break etc.

I never invite people that have 1x of all bosses in ToS as an example, or like 1 KJ and 2-3 random kills of certain bosses in their list. The former smells of a boost possibly new alt (not worth taking the risk) and the latter is just a person more likely than not being bad getting kicked from groups or just unlucky and have groups disband on him (less likely)

[Nigmatar]

Most curves today are bought, that is a fact

well, I'm waiting
I have all day

[Deleted]

Thisll sounmd weird, but KJ curve group requirement is usually a shit group anyway. Most people buy their curves, and I know this as a person that makes a ton of groups. Having curve don't mean shit, I've had people with 3-4 KJ kills still not know how to do the fight. Its irrelevant, only problem is joining groups without it, but that is easily solved by making your own.

Your post is irrelevant tbh.
First mistake: most people buy curve. Wrong. Totally. Sure, a lot of people did buy their curve, yet a lot more did get it in a fair way, with guild (mostly) or even progressing in pugs. You can spot people that bought curve so easy on armory checking the kills.
Second mistake: "i've had people with 3-4 kills still not know how to do the fight". Hmm, while I find that hard to belive from experience (I got over 35 kills of it atm on 3 chars, and been leading pugs for my alts for years now, so yeah I do have big experience on people behaviour in pugs) since people with multi kills usually DO know the fight (altho sometimes they still do fuck up), whats your point? Are you saying that on average the player with 3-4 kills will be worse or as bad as the average one with 0 kills? I hope you're not saying something so dumb. So yeah, sure you CAN find a total moron with several kills (altho, as I said, from experience, I dont remember really many like that with the raid that just opened, and god i've led so many full runs pugs), but its much easier to find such people if you invite those without curve or with just one kill.

[Malico]

Link hogger curve or no invite?

[Deleted]

The main problem of such threads is that every time a lot of people without experience and that never led anything in their life jump in and talk nosense.

If you lead a pug, the first thing you ask yourself is: "how can i find 20 other reliable people that I dont know that will help me kill the boss?".

The first thing you'll want to do is set itemlevel high... sure, a 930 wont give you a 100% chance that is a better player than a 915, but ON AVERAGE the 930 players you'll get WILL DO better than 915 ones.

Then a bad leader will ONLY ask for achi... again, you wont be 100% sure that everyone with achi is better than the ones without, but on average a full achi group WILL do better FOR SURE than a full one without achi at all.

And then, if you're smart, you'll armory every guy and make sure he has at least several kills (if the raid is out 9 weeks like TOS, 5 KJ HC kills is more than fair to ask, i ask more tbh in my runs). Again, its still possibile than 10 out of 100 times the one with a kill is a better player than the one with 5, but on average a raid full of multiple kill players will do better.

I've done this for years every tier, killed endboss in hc first week every time in pug, I'd say that works fine, even if people will always whine.

[dreamdaddy]

Buncha first Mythic bosses are a joke, but people think they mean anything.
...
A person with e.g. 30Guldan HC kills, even though he doesn't have KJ Curve, is likely a competent player possibly coming back from a break etc.

Sure, the first few mythic kills are pretty straightforward, but there's a huge difference between someone who's 3/9M and does the expected level of dps that their item level would imply and someone who is 925 and doing <500k dps on Goroth. People ask for current AOTC or Mythic links because they want a smooth run with experienced players, the same as the way you look at reviews on Yelp or stars in Lyft/Uber before committing your time and effort into an outing that could potentially be a complete waste.

The people who ask for AOTC without actually having it or on an undergeared alt are bootybuttons though, yeah.