How Would You Feel if Sylvanas Dies?

[Skoll Shorties]

Agreed.
Need more alliance deaths. And maybe a victory for the Horde. If they want to get rid of Sylvannas as "warchief" simply have either thrall or Vol'jin come back, and her stepping down Gracefully. She is a warchief for the time of war (similar to garrosh), but not a warchief for peacetimes.

Agreed friend!

[Deleted]

Agreed.
Need more alliance deaths. And maybe a victory for the Horde. If they want to get rid of Sylvannas as "warchief" simply have either thrall or Vol'jin come back, and her stepping down Gracefully. She is a warchief for the time of war (similar to garrosh), but not a warchief for peacetimes.

Having a diplomatic Warchief is something I can get behind.

What I can't get behind is having pointless deaths, Alliance ones especially.
Meaningless deaths lead to poor narrative, such as the current title of Warchief: it's a little more than a hot potato as it stands.

What I'd want is clear roles and some insight in what's going on currently with the Horde leadership instead of this deafening silence.
The Legion had a strong going at the beginning of the expansion and some of the major characters used the chance to push further their own agenda, which might be the case for Sylvanas and Greymane. But aside from Anduin making peace with his father's death and investiture as High King there's been nothing.

5.1 did amazingly in this regard. Heck, Pandaria as a whole did amazingly in this regard. Why can't it be the same.

[Zulkhan]

There is some speculation caused that Vol'jin's vision wasn't caused by the Lua, but instead caused by the Old Gods to put their pawn (Sylvanas), into position.

In all honesty, these kind of theories are a mere step above others like "Jaina is a Dreadlord" and the like. They're obviously more likely once compared to borderline memes but on the end of the day remains stuff pulled from nowhere without any degree of backing up, especially when we consider that:

-It's hilariously unlikely that a Shadow Hunter experienced as Vol'jin would mistake the Old Gods' whispers for Loa. Yes, he was injured and experiencing who knows how much pain from that but he wasn't definitely allucinated or out of his mind like some people pretend he was. So basically, not only the Old Gods should be able to conjure fake visions but those should be able to trick someone dealing with real Wild Gods 24/7 as Shadow Hunter, people going through a Monk-like striving for balance just to handle the insanely chaotic influence of multiple Loa on a single individual.

-There's really nothing to suggest Sylvanas is a pawn to anything. She has her own agenda and that seems to be the start and end of it. There's not even enough to imply she unwittingly favored the agenda of anyone but her own. None of her actions, for now, led to any game-changing consequence whatsoever.

I would say that his change of mind is tied to his vision.

I would say yes for a 70% roughly. However, he also judged Sylvanas' behavior at the Broken Shore on a positive light.

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Id trade all horde leaders to see Jaina flayed alive.

Sounds like something me and @Friendlyimmolation should work over.

[Scrysis]

@Zulkhan

You're right, it is just speculation (although, much better than Jaina is a dreadlord, give me that at least O_O), based more closely around the whisperings of Ilgayanag in the Emerald Nightmare, and datamined dialogue from 7.3. Old God whisperings corrupted Neltharion, the Earthwatcher, and fooled him, a much greater being than Zul'jin, so experience or no experience, I suspect they could do the same to him. To be completely fair, while the old gods don't necessarily lie, they don't tell the whole truth either.

You can very easily be pursuing what you think is your own goals, and yet still be a pawn of someone else. It just takes more subtle manipulation and planning. My own way of thinking is that perhaps maybe the scene she saw when she committed suicide wasn't where she was intended to go after death, and was, in fact, something the old gods did. If you think you're going to hell when you die, you'll do anything to keep from dying. So in short, you could predict that Sylvanas would try and boost her power base and get more Val'kyr.


If you want me to dig up the 7.3 dialogue, I can. . . it shouldn't be too far buried.

[Kuhnta]

I would be thrilled! but Horde seems to lose a leader every expansion and I dunno if there is a good fit for replacement.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Id trade all horde leaders to see Jaina flayed alive.

:^)

k./10k

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

Would the Horde finally get a leader we could all be proud of?
I'd feel like playing my Horde toons again.

[Zulkhan]

You're right, it is just speculation (although, much better than Jaina is a dreadlord, give me that at least O_O)

I'll give you that but mind you, Jaina is not the only one who was focus of similar "speculations". I remember people arguing that "the Garrosh" after Theramore was not truly him but a Dreadlord (just like Jaina) because his change of character seemed strange (even though it was really not by simply reading the lore properly) or even that Malkorok, his Blackrock advisor coming out of nowhere was Kil'jaeden or some other demon. In the end, none of them was anything demonic and both were just assholes.

Now, I'm not saying the theories regarding Sylvanas falls on the same category but they miss it for a few inches. She's definitely focus of similar theories because of what people expect from her, it's a certain set of exceptations that make people conjure very weird and somewhat baseless theories about a certain character. Ofcourse, Sylvanas potentially doing shady shit is not really that out of reality because, as long said shit fits her overall character and motivations, she's definitely not above doing questionable stuff. However, the speculations targetting Vol'jin's vision and ultimate decision of promoting Sylvanas are definitely in lack of substance. Arguing that Old Gods whispered to Vol'jin and that Vol'jin mistook them for the "spirits" he was used to communicate with is sincerely just as likely as it was for Garrosh's bodyguard (Malkorok) to actually be Kil'jaeden.

based more closely around the whisperings of Ilgayanag in the Emerald Nightmare

Which is honestly way too vague to imply anything. There's really not a powerful hook leading to Sylvanas specifically.

and datamined dialogue from 7.3.

That's somewhat better and surely more specific. Then again, Varimathras is not what I'd call an objective narrator so what he says has the value you can get.

Old God whisperings corrupted Neltharion, the Earthwatcher, and fooled him, a much greater being than Zul'jin, so experience or no experience, I suspect they could do the same to him.

Neltharion wasn't fooled, he was driven insane by the Old Gods' whispers and mostly because of his unique connection to Azeroth's deep places.

Nathrezim are the masters of trickery and deception, not the Old Gods. Old Gods are better at manipulating people by preying at their inner demons and negative emotions.

You can very easily be pursuing what you think is your own goals, and yet still be a pawn of someone else. It just takes more subtle manipulation and planning. My own way of thinking is that perhaps maybe the scene she saw when she committed suicide wasn't where she was intended to go after death, and was, in fact, something the old gods did. If you think you're going to hell when you die, you'll do anything to keep from dying. So in short, you could predict that Sylvanas would try and boost her power base and get more Val'kyr.

I see where you want to get but, again, Sylvanas' actions did not really justify any hypothetical planning concerning her. Yes, it's fear of the afterlife that made Sylvanas accepts the Val'kyr's bargain but Val'kyr were nothing but the Lich King's previous servants and mere Vrykul women before that. Four of them even died already just to keep Sylvanas "alive" (well, out of "hell" at least) so if there's some bigger plan in action its point is dubious enough.

Sure, Sylvanas would go and try to get all the Val'kyr she could to ensure herself and the Forsaken a future but, once again, I can't really see why anyone would be interested in that and how Sylvanas' personal drive would be of help to any "super villain". And that without considering the fact that even supporting a big bad's agenda would not make Sylvanas a villain as long this occurred unwittingly, unless they really want to project Arthas' own story on her, making Sylvanas a victim of her own drive but that would be a very weird direction for her story, given how she already went through a "soulless" and borderline villainous status and gradually started to walk on a slightly better path from then. Plus, the point of Arthas' fall was that he ultimately pursued his own selfish wishes over the actual good of his people where Sylvanas seems to follow a contrary path, gradually moving from nothing but selfish drive to a more concerned stance in regards of the Forsaken's fate. Putting her Val'kyr at risk to save the Horde at the Broken Shore is another sign of "positive" development and actual part of the reason for why Vol'jin decided to give Sylvanas the Warchief's mantle (along the insight got from the Loa).

I remain of the idea that keeping Sylvanas on a "good" yet controversial/questionable path is the way to go with her character. Shadow Hunters like Vol'jin, from what I took by reading Shadows of the Horde, are very pragmatic and big picture thinkers, traits given by their constant meddling with divine beings mostly unconcerned by mortal's trivialities. Obviously, that would mean that as long Sylvanas leads to a certain outcome, what she does between point A and point B is not particularly relevant.

If you want me to dig up the 7.3 dialogue, I can. . . it shouldn't be too far buried.

All I know of the 7.3 regarding Sylvanas is Varimathras' words and the little chat between Alleria and Vereesa (with only the first being somewhat useful in terms of speculation).

[Aeula]

Id trade all horde leaders to see Jaina flayed alive.

This. So much this.

Take whoever you want, so long as we get Jaina's severed head.

[Gyrotex]

I'd be pretty annoyed. How would you feel if they made Sylvanas the 5th Horde leader to bite the dust? After killing Cairn, Garrosh, Vol'jin, and removing Thrall. Do we really need another? If they kept Vol'jin alive or brought him back, I'd be ok with it. But seriously, who would we have left beside Lorthramar and baine? Gallywix and Ji? And maybe a really, really old orc? Probably not the best time to make her a baddie. Not until they establish the others more and add some really cool horde leaders.

I'd party for a week, and spend a lot of money buying rounds of drinks for my friends.

Next question.

[ItachiZaku]

The game has been slowly dying for awhile, it'll continue to slowly die. Probably... I dunno, at least 3-4 more expansions. Killing off Sylvanas will speed up that process, it would really alienate the horde player base quite a bit. I for sure wouldn't be coming back in any capacity and I know plenty of others that claim the same. And with a lot of those people being on the "let's all buy tokens for the next 2-3 months" mindset, having half or more of those people not coming back... they won't either.

[Scrysis]

All I know of the 7.3 regarding Sylvanas is Varimathras' words and the little chat between Alleria and Vereesa (with only the first being somewhat useful in terms of speculation).

It's actually the dialogue of Varithmas to the Horde/Alliance. http://www.wowhead.com/news=267182/p...major-spoilers (Go down and click on just Varithmas, if you dare.) Even though he's a dreadlord, he has already been outed as one. They're notoriously good at manipulation, so I'm inclined to believe that what he's telling us is a partial truth, but not all of it, since outright lying really wouldn't do anything at this point. Even if not the whole truth, the picture he paints is a troubling one, to say in the least.

P.S. -- This discussion with you has been genuinely pleasant. Thank you. <3 :-)

[Fayenoor]

I don't think you understand the importance of Sylvanas in the Warcraft universe unless you play the original RPG.

The Ranger General Sylvanas Windrunner lost everything in her war against Arthas. She watched her people die and get absorbed into the Scourge. The Lich King turned her into a banshee and enslaved her. When Arthas was weakened during the Third War, she lead a resistance of Undead and broke free of the Lich King control to form the Forsaken. The Humans (GM Garithos) helped her free the Forsaken. She was promised her people could stay in Lordaeron in return for helping the humans in defeating Detheroc. She helped the humans by subduing Varimathras and having Varimathras kill Detheroc. And then the humans betrayed her. Garithos asked her to take her Forsaken and leave Lordaeron forever. She promptly executed Garithos and took over Lordaeron for her people.

For the Forsaken players, Sylvanas is like their liberator. To be very cheesy, she is their Khaleeshi. You dont want Sylvanas dead - then you will have the Forsaken unleashed, plundering and destroying everything in their path till are all defeated and destroyed.