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  1. #61
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lionhearte0 View Post
    So I take it you're Pro-Life?
    Why would "falling birth rates" be an issue that would warrant flagrant human rights abuses?


  2. #62
    The Lightbringer fengosa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lionhearte0 View Post
    So I take it you're Pro-Life?
    No, we shouldn't be forcing people to raise children who don't want to do that. It's a completely separate issue.

  3. #63
    I am Murloc! Oneirophobia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sztyrymytyry View Post
    "Our rules, our principles and our laws apply to everyone," Trudeau warned.

    That sounds pretty assimilate-y to me, Mr. Trudeau. Different people from different places are going to have fundamentally different principles, who are you to force them down the throat of other cultures? Just because closed isolationist boarders are important to old white people doesn't mean it's important to everyone else. Why are you trying to please them anyway? They don't vote for you, and if you try to appeal to them you'll soon lose the refugee/immigrant vote to the NDP.

  4. #64
    Real talk, for a nation that boasts progressiveness as one of its core values, the fact that it engages in ableism is pretty damn ironic.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Oneirophobia View Post
    That sounds pretty assimilate-y to me, Mr. Trudeau. Different people from different places are going to have fundamentally different principles, who are you to force them down the throat of other cultures? Just because closed isolationist boarders are important to old white people doesn't mean it's important to everyone else. Why are you trying to please them anyway? They don't vote for you, and if you try to appeal to them you'll soon lose the refugee/immigrant vote to the NDP.
    Hes not losing any vote over this. Illegal immigration from the US are not refugee. The reason he beat NPD and got the majority to begin with is that Quebec switched from NDP to Liberal last election. Quebec polls always shows 70%+ of the population against illegal immigration and Quebec is receiving by far the majority of it right now. Hes doing exactly what he should do to keep the NDP down.

    You can be 100% all 3 parties will say exactly the same. Asylum seeking from the US is not like with another country. Both countries are safe, meaning people are discouraged from walking up the border, they can apply as refugee or immigrants before even entering either countries. Walking to the other actually often makes you non eligible. So yeah warning them of the law is a good idea.

    Its the same way australia works, its to discourage people from just walking all over the place and be kicked out, in the case australia its to stop people from dying at sea just to get there. You make your demand before ever setting foot here and afterward it means you dont have to smuggle yourself into the ocean and possibily die paying some smuggler 10 grand just to be refused.

    Same is happening here, people like Cab drivers are robbing some of these people by telling them they can just be drove to the border for thousands of dollars, when in reality all they had to do was contact the embassy or use the internet.
    Last edited by minteK917; 2017-08-23 at 02:28 AM.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    There's also that we're discussing separate things, here.

    Trudeau was saying we don't put up with illegal immigration. By comparison, the US does, and their economy relies upon it to a certain extent, for all the rhetoric against it. So that's illegal immigration.

    What you're talking about is economic immigration, where people just want to move to Canada, to live and work. In which case, yeah, we screen applicants to be sure they'll likely be a benefit to Canada. Before anyone makes another dig about the disability thing, I strongly disagree with that if we're talking about dependents of someone who'd otherwise pass the bar.

    And then there's the refugee system. Which has, broadly speaking, two forms. There's government sponsorship, which is what gets all the press, where we cherry-pick families and such from the refugee camps in Turkey and such, for ideally permanent resettlement to Canada; this isn't really a refugee program, it's a resettlement program. Beyond that, people can apply for asylum directly at our border entry points, or can be sponsored by a private family (two separate programs there, but generally similar in a lot of ways). In this case, we had people trying to claim asylum from living in the USA, which isn't going to get supported, since the US is fine. And if they wanted to stay despite that denial, they'd be illegal immigrants, which we don't support, hence Trudeau's comment.

    Trying to boil any of this down to one single procedure/set of standards is just flat-out wrong.
    I respectfully disagree with the notion that the US is okay with illegal immigration. I can't think of a country on earth that doesn't want to enforce borders and immigration flow.

    There is no difference to me between illegal immigration and economic immigration as both are linked. Europe is a perfect example as most of the migrants in Europe are economic migrants and one could argue the migrants from war torn conflicts are also economic migrants as they pass through several European nations and settling to more economic favorable countries instead (eg Germany).

  7. #67
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mafic View Post
    I respectfully disagree with the notion that the US is okay with illegal immigration. I can't think of a country on earth that doesn't want to enforce borders and immigration flow.
    Let me clarify; the US border is deliberately porous. A lot of businesses, particularly agriculture, in the South all rely on illegal labor to get by. There's essentially no enforcement on those employing the illegal immigrants; there's no desire to do anything to try and end that labor market, just to ensure that those serving it (the illegal immigrants) get no protections or support.

    It's not an overt desire to have illegal immigration; the rhetoric is largely opposed. But there's no real effort to end the illegal labor market by penalizing those who provide them with jobs, nor (for all the bluster) to really start enforcing visa restrictions and so forth.


  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Let me clarify; the US border is deliberately porous. A lot of businesses, particularly agriculture, in the South all rely on illegal labor to get by. There's essentially no enforcement on those employing the illegal immigrants; there's no desire to do anything to try and end that labor market, just to ensure that those serving it (the illegal immigrants) get no protections or support.

    It's not an overt desire to have illegal immigration; the rhetoric is largely opposed. But there's no real effort to end the illegal labor market by penalizing those who provide them with jobs, nor (for all the bluster) to really start enforcing visa restrictions and so forth.
    I do not think it is deliberately porous, because the #1 complaint of state governors, souther US citizens and many in the Republican party is not enough border protection and enforcement. And the strain on these southern states isn't just taking away jobs from American citizens but also the emergency room visits.

    The problem is the Deocratic party is against enforcing the border but at the same time wants wages to increase. But a wage increase in agriculture would happen if the borders were enforced better and more American citizens would be able to work on these farms as a result.

    It is already illegal to employ illegals and it is enforced with many ICE stings that occur. The penalties are severe, but the problem is that Democratic party doesn't want the Fed to enforce the laws on the books.

  9. #69
    The Undying Cthulhu 2020's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lionhearte0 View Post
    So I take it you're Pro-Life?
    Why should we force people to do something they don't want to do when there are plenty willing to participate in our economy of their own volition?

    I get that you were trying to play "HAH, CAUGHT THE HYPOCRITE!" but you just ended up looking silly.

    This isn't a black and white issue, this isn't "MORE PEOPLE GOOD, LESS PEOPLE BAD". There are factors in forcing people to carry children they don't want that only monsters would push for, and then there's hysteria over the (non) issue of "illegal" immigration where Mexicans have been hopping back and forth across our border since the early 1800's, and it only became a religion to hate that practice within the last few decades.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mafic View Post
    I do not think it is deliberately porous, because the #1 complaint of state governors, souther US citizens and many in the Republican party is not enough border protection and enforcement. And the strain on these southern states isn't just taking away jobs from American citizens but also the emergency room visits.

    The problem is the Deocratic party is against enforcing the border but at the same time wants wages to increase. But a wage increase in agriculture would happen if the borders were enforced better and more American citizens would be able to work on these farms as a result.

    It is already illegal to employ illegals and it is enforced with many ICE stings that occur. The penalties are severe, but the problem is that Democratic party doesn't want the Fed to enforce the laws on the books.
    Why do you think that immigration across our border has become such a huge dog whistle within the last couple of decades, when it's been going on for over two centuries?

    Maybe it has something to do with the fact that when businesses started sending jobs overseas and switching to automation, they were looking for a convenient scapegoat. A scapegoat they found in migrants who pick watermelons to blame lost factory jobs on.

    "THEY TOOK OUR JERBS!" was a pretty catchy phrase as factory workers were losing their jobs to machines, and everyone was telling these gullible suckers it was Mexican migrants.
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  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Mafic View Post
    I do not think it is deliberately porous, because the #1 complaint of state governors, souther US citizens and many in the Republican party is not enough border protection and enforcement. And the strain on these southern states isn't just taking away jobs from American citizens but also the emergency room visits.

    The problem is the Deocratic party is against enforcing the border but at the same time wants wages to increase. But a wage increase in agriculture would happen if the borders were enforced better and more American citizens would be able to work on these farms as a result.

    It is already illegal to employ illegals and it is enforced with many ICE stings that occur. The penalties are severe, but the problem is that Democratic party doesn't want the Fed to enforce the laws on the books.
    The funny thing is that businesses do get penalized for knowingly hiring illegal immigrants. The problem as to why its so hard is that businesses and illegal immigrants use laws and other forms of identification (ITIN) to hide from the government, a lot of these things benefit natives as well. That and there is an active by some states to sabotage the entire thing.

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