Cof, till when he will be...

[Grof]

Hey rogues,

What do you think, until when cof will be almost must have or bis trinket in second trinket slot? Asking bcs found that even +30ilvl or more Vial of Ceaseless Toxins and Specter of Betrayal are huge loss in terms of dps, what is a little bit insane in my opinion since its a harder to get both trinkets due to harder bosses atm.

thx in advance and cheers!!!...

[Feali]

Until it says "Doesn't work for players above level 111".

[Nigmatar]

They have already said they were gonna nerf the rest of the NH trinkets once 7.3 or 7.3.5 hits, draught style.
Also no way a 910+ spectre gets beat by any CoF, they are always about equal. but getting a high ilvl spectre is way easier and it can tf to 950, so spectre is the best trinket at the end of the day, it just takes off once it gets very high ilvl and nothing competes with it.

So it might be hard for the average casual player to get spectre right now at a high ilvl, but once the new raid comes out, spectre will be the hot new meme everyone wants at 950 ilvl with ToS on super farm.

[Symphonic]

currently using heroic 915 + socket engine of eradication, and 925 heroic titanforged CoF. I have a 910 specter but I don't think it beats what I'm currently using.

[Nigmatar]

currently using heroic 915 + socket engine of eradication, and 925 heroic titanforged CoF. I have a 910 specter but I don't think it beats what I'm currently using.

910 spectre should kick the ass out of that engine assuming you can double dip the spectre.

[Varolyn]

910 spectre should kick the ass out of that engine assuming you can double dip the spectre.

I think you are overhyping specter a bit. A 910 specter only sims 3k better than my 915 engine, and that is using a patchwerk simulation, the kind of fight in which specter would shine the most. Then again, this is with assassination spec, maybe it's different for sub. But even then, I would probably still use engine, as it is a lot more reliable.

[Nigmatar]

I think you are overhyping specter a bit. A 910 specter only sims 3k better than my 915 engine, and that is using a patchwerk simulation, the kind of fight in which specter would shine the most. Then again, this is with assassination spec, maybe it's different for sub. But even then, I would probably still use engine, as it is a lot more reliable.

Not sure how assassination can with spectre, but Sub gets to completely blanket spectre use with dmg modifiers of stealth and dance plus shoulder leg buff and it can do some serious damage.

[Critical92]

It comes down to the combinations someone has. Spectre and cof are very good. Vial is consistent in heavy movement and engine is frond 2.0.
I had fights where engine procced one time or 19% uptime in a 4 to 5 min fight...

A combination of cof+ X is most of the time top. Sub with 3 min shblades cd feels not good.
I say when cof gets nerfed sub will be back to enveloping shadow builds or even fuck everything, accept the t21 2set and go gloomblade.

[Djanco]

https://bloodmallet.github.io/

you can see the comparisons here. cof is certainly powerful, but not as good as a specter. (because you can get it at a higher baseline ilvl) however, cof at it's lowest baseline ilvl is more powerful than anything else you could equip as it has a rate of 5 ppm which is arguably insane. as a side note engine doesn't come close to a 900 specter until it's around 940

[Sephiroso]

https://bloodmallet.github.io/

you can see the comparisons here. cof is certainly powerful, but not as good as a specter. (because you can get it at a higher baseline ilvl) however, cof at it's lowest baseline ilvl is more powerful than anything else you could equip as it has a rate of 5 ppm which is arguably insane. as a side note engine doesn't come close to a 900 specter until it's around 940

Are you blind or something? For both Sub/Outlaw CoF >>>>>>>>> Spectre. And for Assassination, they're about equal given equal ilvl until 940ilvl.

[elfporn]

https://bloodmallet.github.io/

you can see the comparisons here. cof is certainly powerful, but not as good as a specter. (because you can get it at a higher baseline ilvl) however, cof at it's lowest baseline ilvl is more powerful than anything else you could equip as it has a rate of 5 ppm which is arguably insane. as a side note engine doesn't come close to a 900 specter until it's around 940

cof has a much higher ppm than 5 for rogues....

if i recall correctly it's either 15 or 9, i really can't remember right

- - - Updated - - -

Are you blind or something? For both Sub/Outlaw CoF >>>>>>>>> Spectre. And for Assassination, they're about equal given equal ilvl until 940ilvl.

spectre's sims are also done in a vacuum and/or patchwerk type fights(like the others ofc) - it's not ideal to use in half the encounters, and it doesn't get any better at all with multitarget.

[Sephiroso]

cof has a much higher ppm than 5 for rogues....

if i recall correctly it's either 15 or 9, i really can't remember right

- - - Updated - - -



spectre's sims are also done in a vacuum and/or patchwerk type fights(like the others ofc) - it's not ideal to use in half the encounters, and it doesn't get any better at all with multitarget.

No, I agree with your words fully, I was more so just pointing out even within that vacuum, the crap Djanco was trying to say about Spectre being better than CoF was still incorrect.

[Nekroman]

Not to mention the human error factor with specter is no joke. Cof you can literally throw your knife/star or pistol shot spam to proc. Lols at the "doesn't work for players above level 111"

Been hearing "inc cof nerf" since gully died. If i was holding my breath...

[Symphonic]

Not to mention the human error factor with specter is no joke.

It might not be optimal but because you want to ensure both are up at the same time, I just macro it to my mutilate, so on fights where you're not moving the boss a lot, you can have both active at the same time without too much thought about the placement. Right now I'm not using it as assassination because of 915+socket engine of eradication and 925 COF, but on fights without movement, I'm thinking of swapping in my 910 spectre.

[Djanco]

Lol there is no need to be so hostile. I'm just saying Specter is better because it drops at a higher Ivl baseline. And ofc I'm talking about sub. If at this point you're still playing anything else, chances are you're a huge pleb. Even played sloppily sub outperforms the other two, easily. Also I looked it up and cof actually has a proc rate of 9 ppm for sub, 8.4 for outlaw and 3.9 for sine

[honung]

They have already said they were gonna nerf the rest of the NH trinkets once 7.3 or 7.3.5 hits, draught style.
Also no way a 910+ spectre gets beat by any CoF, they are always about equal. but getting a high ilvl spectre is way easier and it can tf to 950, so spectre is the best trinket at the end of the day, it just takes off once it gets very high ilvl and nothing competes with it.

So it might be hard for the average casual player to get spectre right now at a high ilvl, but once the new raid comes out, spectre will be the hot new meme everyone wants at 950 ilvl with ToS on super farm.

I wouldn't say that Specter is as good as CoF. In an ideal situation, sure, but it often doesn't work out like that. It is only that powerful when the boss is stationary, if it has moved it is much worse. It also spreads damage and doesn't scale with multiple targets. Specter is a situationally very powerful trinket, and otherwise it's still pretty good. CoF is very powerful basically all the time. That's why pretty much all top Subtlety logs on all fights are using CoF, which is not the case for Specter (though it's probably the second most popular trinket).

[elfporn]

Lol there is no need to be so hostile. I'm just saying Specter is better because it drops at a higher Ivl baseline. And ofc I'm talking about sub. If at this point you're still playing anything else, chances are you're a huge pleb. Even played sloppily sub outperforms the other two, easily. Also I looked it up and cof actually has a proc rate of 9 ppm for sub, 8.4 for outlaw and 3.9 for sine

You must not play with good assassination rogues. I see the opposite. And out-dps better geared sub rogues....easily.

I must be a huge pleb, but i wonder what the sub rogues i'm beating are?

Thanks for confirming the cof proc rate, been so long since i've checked up on that.

[Deleted]

Lol there is no need to be so hostile. I'm just saying Specter is better because it drops at a higher Ivl baseline. And ofc I'm talking about sub. If at this point you're still playing anything else, chances are you're a huge pleb. Even played sloppily sub outperforms the other two, easily. Also I looked it up and cof actually has a proc rate of 9 ppm for sub, 8.4 for outlaw and 3.9 for sine

Sloppily played Sub rogue is actually not going to match a well-played Otl or Assa, seeing as playing Sub sloppily is actually quite punishing.

There's no doubt about it when people say that sub is the strongest spec, but saying other people who do not play it are "probably huge plebs" is just ignorant. Otl/Assa are behind, but not to the point where it is unplayable even in standard mythic progression.

I'll never understand why the non-fotm specs always have be shit on, same thing went on during Assa's brilliance during NH.

[Nigmatar]

I wouldn't say that Specter is as good as CoF. In an ideal situation, sure, but it often doesn't work out like that. It is only that powerful when the boss is stationary, if it has moved it is much worse. It also spreads damage and doesn't scale with multiple targets. Specter is a situationally very powerful trinket, and otherwise it's still pretty good. CoF is very powerful basically all the time. That's why pretty much all top Subtlety logs on all fights are using CoF, which is not the case for Specter (though it's probably the second most popular trinket).

I said somewhere, assuming you can double dip the spectre, umbral is always gonna beat it on any fight with any sort of adds, and almost anything else beats it if the boss has high movement.
But CoF won't stay viable forever once they nerf it.

[Deleted]

Blizz announced already a COF nerf some months ago as soon as the 7.3 raid tier hits the server.