Hunter QQ

[Moshots]

Thank you!!
Why is this so hard for them to see?

I mean Unnerfed jaw and pack would be horribly IMBA with the crucible....

not to Mention the scaling if you managed to 7/7 Both in the crucible...

prenerf would be what like 35% Kill command damage and 70% chance on jaws? 7/7

Add in tier 21 set bonus with 10% more KC... BM would become arms warriors 2.0 if they had left those talents unnerfed then the crucible come out...

Even now the crucible is gonna be pretty OP for BM if you can get 7/7 Pack and 7/7 Jaws.

[Deleted]

What changes would you like to see? Change for the sake of it, is usually a pretty bad idea, and backfires often.

So what changes do you think they should be making?

Buff Sidewinders.

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Returning marksmans mobility, steady shot back and making arcane shot the focus dump on the move would be a start.
making bms pet ai actually work, and a decent sized damage buff

And killshot/masters call back for both those specs

MM already has one of the strongest executes thanks to Bullseye, KS is redundant.

[Ickabob]

The best part of all this is, they show buffs for BM and SV in an official promotional image, yet those buffs aren't in the final patch notes.

[Kylista6]

Every other class gets changes galore

Dem priest changes doe.

[Senel]

The best part of all this is, they show buffs for BM and SV in an official promotional image, yet those buffs aren't in the final patch notes.

Guess we will have to see when PTR gets updated for the final time.

[reimmi2016]

Buff Sidewinders.

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MM already has one of the strongest executes thanks to Bullseye, KS is redundant.

as a pvp talent then. bullseye is worthless in pvp

[Sim]

As far as the BM being bottom dps goes. Blizzard doesn't tune dps in X.X.0 patches, but does so in X.X.5 patches these days. And I think BM isn't in an awful place if you look at how easy the spec is to play and how many advantages it gives (fully mobile, ranged advantages + melee advantages with much less of the downsides of either, very progress friendly).
I still think it needs a bit of love, but I think the class overal is healthier with SV and MM being the higher dps specs, seeing how BM has a lower skill floor+ceiling and a ton of advantages the others don't have.

Oh please. This is WoW: Legion. No spec is hard to play, they made sure everything was "easy" to play. Boomkin has the same mobility that the BM Hunter has using the Memekin spec and it is easily top 5 DPS for a while now. So sell me on something else because fully mobile, ranged and high damage is what a Boomkin brings to a raid with both ST and MT. That isn't even mentioned the raid ultility brings it can bring.

Rogues have mobility, damage and able to straight up ignore mechanics but Sub Rogues are okay doing that? They straight up cheapen any other melee that isn't Rogue.

Healthier. Lets just punish a whole player base because people want to feel like they're playing the "skilled" spec. That is not toxic thinking at all.

[Leadsop]

I think the class overal is healthier with SV and MM being the higher dps specs, seeing how BM has a lower skill floor+ceiling and a ton of advantages the others don't have.

Posts like this are the reason people hate elitists.

[Moshots]

Posts like this are the reason people hate elitists.

why because what he is saying is true?

If BM did equal damage no one would play the other 2 specs. Look at NH for example where every hunter was BM....

Even now with MM 200k ahead on sims the majority (65%+) of logged Kills on the last 3 bosses are BM.... Maybe the top 0.01% method and exorsus used straight MM hunters (Limit used 4 MM too) to push progress with 10 less ilvl but the majority of people are still playing BM... (almost every china/korea kill were majority BM hunters)

I do Think BM could use a slight buff but in no way should bm be brought up to MM. much Like Demo is the #1 simming spec in the game right now ST but basically no one plays it compared to the other 2 warlock specs because movement screw it hard. MM is the in the same boat... A spec with 100% mobility should never be the #1 overall spec on patchwork low movement fights.

[Wilfire]

Easy fix! Give MM infinite mobility like in HFC. People didn't roll hunters to play physical casters. Let MM be strong on ST and BM on cleave.

[Leadsop]

why because what he is saying is true?

No, because what he is saying is elitist in its purest form. "Don't buff that cause MY SPEC takes MORE SKILL har har har."

So let's play devil's advocate - we should leave hunters as a class - one of the pure damage classes - suppressed? And we should make sure that one of the 3 specs stays the lowest damage spec IN THE ENTIRE GAME just because one of the other specs is full of elitists and wants that spec beaten down?

Idiotic.

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Easy fix! Give MM infinite mobility like in HFC. People didn't roll hunters to play physical casters. Let MM be strong on ST and BM on cleave.

This would work. Then buff all 3 specs.

IMO pure damage classes should be the best damage classes in the game.

[Ladyoftheforest]

why because what he is saying is true?

If BM did equal damage no one would play the other 2 specs. Look at NH for example where every hunter was BM....

I would still play MM since I'm not in guild that is vying for worlds first. I don't like to play a simplistic spec where I need
animals to do my damage. Pretty sure I'm not the only one. I've nothing against BM's, but this calimero attitude is getting
silly. Hopefully the devs answer the bm's cries for buffs soon so the Hunter section will be filled with more positivity.

[Nythiz]

Posts like this are the reason people hate elitists.

No, because what he is saying is elitist in its purest form. "Don't buff that cause MY SPEC takes MORE SKILL har har har."

So let's play devil's advocate - we should leave hunters as a class - one of the pure damage classes - suppressed? And we should make sure that one of the 3 specs stays the lowest damage spec IN THE ENTIRE GAME just because one of the other specs is full of elitists and wants that spec beaten down?

Idiotic.

Easy there forum hero.

Let's set some things straight: BM has been my main spec for ages and it's still my favorite spec. I do play a lot of MM as well, but that's both because I like the variation and I feel like playing multiple specs makes me a better player.
You can call me elitist; hell maybe I am. But at least I seem to comprehend the situation BM is in a bit better then you, who just seems to look at the logs from the last 2 weeks and start whining about BM not getting a buff on a patch that isn't even meant to balance classes. smh.

I literally say in my post that the spec needs some love as it is clearly too low on the dps meters at the moment. However, despite MM's clear dominance on the dps boards, BM is still often chosen for progression; clearly indicating that the spec has a very strong advantage in certain scenarios.

Nowhere do I mention that BM should be put in the gutters, if you take that from my post I sincerely question your reading comprehension.
In fact I mostly agree with Effin's post. BM deserves a buff as it's clearly too far behind. But if you see how many people still play BM despite this, that also means that DESPITE doing lower dps there is a significant advantage to BM. And sure that might be the "fun factor" of the spec or the "I've always been BM factor"; but a lot of it is also because on a ton of fights where shit flies around left and right you can simply do competitive dps as BM and be a stable factor for your raid group.

Buffing BM to be equal or better than MM wouldn't be the best choice IMO.

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I would still play MM since I'm not in guild that is vying for worlds first. I don't like to play a simplistic spec where I need
animals to do my damage. Pretty sure I'm not the only one. I've nothing against BM's, but this calimero attitude is getting
silly. Hopefully the devs answer the bm's cries for buffs soon so the Hunter section will be filled with more positivity.

Sure there are always people who will stick to a certain spec.

But it was clear that in NH the balance between BM and MM was heavily skewed towards BM. I mean if I'm progressing on a hard boss, why would I play a spec that has stricter mobility and gets punished more when you're not quite familiar yet with certain fight AND also does lower top dps. VS playing a spec that has complete freedom of mobility, really can't mess up a rotation and does higher dps.
People tend to gravitate toward the latter for progression.

In ToS where MM is the better spec overal you see a much more even balance despite that. Because BM brings so many extra advantages. There was a topic on these forums a while back I think where someone went through the logs and saw that even in the higher tier guilds a lot of players were using BM for progression.

[Halyon]

why because what he is saying is true?

If BM did equal damage no one would play the other 2 specs. Look at NH for example where every hunter was BM....

Even now with MM 200k ahead on sims the majority (65%+) of logged Kills on the last 3 bosses are BM.... Maybe the top 0.01% method and exorsus used straight MM hunters (Limit used 4 MM too) to push progress with 10 less ilvl but the majority of people are still playing BM... (almost every china/korea kill were majority BM hunters)

I do Think BM could use a slight buff but in no way should bm be brought up to MM. much Like Demo is the #1 simming spec in the game right now ST but basically no one plays it compared to the other 2 warlock specs because movement screw it hard. MM is the in the same boat... A spec with 100% mobility should never be the #1 overall spec on patchwork low movement fights.

Could also be because MM is terrible to play as. Boring is better than awful. And some people play a hunter to have pets...which MM shits on. Just a thought.

And why shouldn't BM have comparable damage? Because there's nothing wrong with being equal to most other specs and it being easier. It keeps people playing. If you want a challenge, then pick a more difficult spec. But don't start saying that people deserve less dps for picking an easier spec, IF that is why they pick it in the first place.

I play BM because it's still my favorite hunter spec, I play it for the pets, not because it's easy. I don't need to be the top dps, but I mind the attitude that because it happens to be an easy spec to play (it wasn't always, let me tell you) right now, doesn't mean shit on how we deserve to place in terms of dps.

Blizz is just bad at balancing things.

[Moshots]

Could also be because MM is terrible to play as. Boring is better than awful. And some people play a hunter to have pets...which MM shits on. Just a thought.

And why shouldn't BM have comparable damage? Because there's nothing wrong with being equal to most other specs and it being easier. It keeps people playing. If you want a challenge, then pick a more difficult spec. But don't start saying that people deserve less dps for picking an easier spec, IF that is why they pick it in the first place.

I play BM because it's still my favorite hunter spec, I play it for the pets, not because it's easy. I don't need to be the top dps, but I mind the attitude that because it happens to be an easy spec to play (it wasn't always, let me tell you) right now, doesn't mean shit on how we deserve to place in terms of dps.

Blizz is just bad at balancing things.

The thing is BM is far from not viable Its the 5th most played spec in progression raiding out of 24 specs....... there are specs that are harder than BM that still do ALOT less damage so if were talking about difficulty. I was making a point that if spec A does 1.2 mil and can't move and Spec B does 1.1 Mil but has full mobility Spec B will be better on 75% of all Mythic raid bosses... So you cannot Use simcraft for a Theoretical Patchwork Fight to balance classes... Because there maybe 1 patchwork fight per tier these days...

and If your a mythic raider damage might be a slight issue but the reality is BM is close to any other spec on any fights whens actually doing mechanics.... I mean if your the kind of person who picks a specs cause it has a cute pet then who cares if BM does 2% less damage in LFR while everyone is standing in every ability.. Its still the go to spec for Mythic Progression raiding for almost every boss. and does competitive damage...


I'm not saying that BM doesn't need a slight 1-2% buff (and a possible larger buff to Beast Cleave)... but people acting like the sky is falling and the spec is completely useless tell that to the 8/9 and 9/9M guilds running triple BM hunter on almost every boss....

[Nythiz]

Could also be because MM is terrible to play as. Boring is better than awful. And some people play a hunter to have pets...which MM shits on. Just a thought.

For as many people that like to play the beast master archetype; there are as many that like to play the archer archetype.
For as many people that find MM awful to play with it's vulnerable window; there are probably just as many people that find BM awful to play just hitting stuff off cooldown and letting your pets do most of the work.

And why shouldn't BM have comparable damage? Because there's nothing wrong with being equal to most other specs and it being easier. It keeps people playing. If you want a challenge, then pick a more difficult spec. But don't start saying that people deserve less dps for picking an easier spec, IF that is why they pick it in the first place.

Because BM can be extremely competitive with other specs without doing equal damage.
Stop reading into me and Moshots posts as if we don't want buffs to BM, we just don't think it's justified for BM to do equal dps given it's other advantages.

I play BM because it's still my favorite hunter spec, I play it for the pets, not because it's easy. I don't need to be the top dps, but I mind the attitude that because it happens to be an easy spec to play (it wasn't always, let me tell you) right now, doesn't mean shit on how we deserve to place in terms of dps.

I like the pets as well. It's why I play BM a lot. When the whole pet cannon build became viable it was one of the most fun I had playing hunter this expansion shooting of dire beasts every few seconds.
However I'm realistic as well. If you look at the skill ceiling (so how much dept there is in mastering the spec) there isn't really as much there as for either SV or MM; hell BM might be one of the easier specs to "master" overal. Sure there are some things here and there (trying to keep up 3 stacks for DF for example) but they're sparse and lack the impact.

Now this shouldn't primarily be a metric for balance, it's hard to measure difficulty and there are a ton of specs with rather easy gameplay. But the "easy spec" causes BM to be very solid pick on progression fights. It's somewhat easy rotation and your free unlimited mobility allows you to handle raid mechanics without losing a lot of dps; making you a stable factor in the raid group. That's highly valuable

Blizz is just bad at balancing things.

It can always be better. But saying something like this means you have either not played in the first 2-3 expansions or you simply chose not to remember it. Because balance back in the days was nowhere near where it is now.
Back in vanilla / TBC / WotLK most classes simply had 1 viable spec and the other wasn't even remotely competitive.

[Halyon]

The thing is BM is far from not viable Its the 5th most played spec in progression raiding out of 24 specs....... there are specs that are harder than BM that still do less damage...... If your a mythic raider than this is an issue but the reality is its not because BM is close to any other spec on any fights whens actually doing mechanics.... I mean if your the kind of person who picks a specs cause it has a cute pet then who cares if BM does 2% less damage Its still the go to spec for Mythic Progression raiding.....

All specs are viable. Unless you only speak for Mythic raiding, which is very far from the main demographic of raiders. Viability is not the issue there, optimization is. They're different. The mindset that BM should do less damage than others because it's easy was what I was going off of. BM is not a good spec atm. If MM had better mobility, it'd be all people would go for in terms of progression, because mobility is a tool to survive, which matters more than raw damage that gets punished for moving. For the kill on KJ, the top guilds barely brought BM's, they brought MM's. I don't have issues with that. My annoyance comes from the aforementioned attitude of BM should be lower dps because mobility.

I understand that there has to be a lowest and a highest spec, and the difference between the second lowest/highest is most of the time quite small, but from top to bottom is a pretty big jump. Some specs perform better with mobility, some don't. All classes should have a work-around to deal with high mobility fights, it's fair, and it shouldn't have to sacrifice damage because of that, or if it's easy to do.

And then I remember that WoW's combat system is not particularly good to begin with. /sigh

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It can always be better. But saying something like this means you have either not played in the first 2-3 expansions or you simply chose not to remember it. Because balance back in the days was nowhere near where it is now.
Back in vanilla / TBC / WotLK most classes simply had 1 viable spec and the other wasn't even remotely competitive.

I've played since BC was released, let me re-phrase; They're still bad at balancing, if not as bad as before.

I wish BM was harder to play, it bores even me (and I despised the zoo-build), but ease to play the spec should really not influence how good the spec is in a fight, other than pvp, and pvp has it's own system now, so it can be balanced mostly seperately. That there is an easy spec to be good with evens out the entry point for doing harder raiding. Sure, not everyone will, some will just stay at the door and be plebs. Nothing wrong with that. Others will find that it's boring playing the babbi's first dps and play something else.

Don't get me wrong, it doesn't at all have to be the best dps, that'd be silly, but it doesn't deserve to be a bottom-pick, which it's shaping up to be, because it's a safe pick in terms of mobility...

[Moshots]

Because BM can be extremely competitive with other specs without doing equal damage.
Stop reading into me and Moshots posts as if we don't want buffs to BM, we just don't think it's justified for BM to do equal dps given it's other advantages.

Its not even that its just I played moonkin start of NH (pre broken shore) when guilds were working on augur and even early elisande Moonkins were 24/24 on krosus 24/24 on chromatic 24/24 on trilliax and the only fight where moonkins excelled was spellblade and killing adds on Tichon (while doing 24/24 Boss damage)

I know whats its like to play a class and actually see the sky falling... play a class and not want to show up to raid because you know you will be dead last on the dps chart.... and I helped complain and I cried and whined on bnet and twitter and everything trying to get the class fixed. (moonkins 3rd gold trait is one of the top 2 dps gain gold traits Straight 6% dps gain and that was tested during the time us moonkins were whining.)

Now that I play hunter though When I show up to raids now I don't feel that way playing BM... i'm still competitive damage. I'm still able to compete (outside cleave fights which as I say I think Beast Cleave needs a buff) But for me I do agree BM should be 1-2% buffed but overall I also see that at the end of the fight I'm in the top 5-8 on the dps chart.. I'm competitive in damage. and to me if a class is competetive there shouldn't be tons of begging for major buffs. The reality is we are getting buffs in 3 weeks already confirmed.. 4% which more than balances out the ilvl scaling (especially when we can get 6+jaws/KC trait points easily with crucible... So I'm more in a wait and see.... I do feel that there should be some "tax" to even out damage at the end of an average boss fight based on the assumption of X numbers of movements... due to the fact that without it you end up with guilds stacking hunters on every movement fight IE augur.

[Halyon]

Its not even that its just I played moonkin start of NH (pre broken shore) when guilds were working on augur and even early elisande Moonkins were 24/24 on krosus 24/24 on chromatic 24/24 on trilliax and the only fight where moonkins excelled was spellblade and killing adds on Tichon (while doing 24/24 Boss damage)

I know whats its like to play a class and actually see the sky falling... play a class and not want to show up to raid because you know you will be dead last on the dps chart.... and I helped complain and I cried and whined on bnet and twitter and everything trying to get the class fixed. (moonkins 3rd gold trait is one of the top 2 dps gain gold traits Straight 6% dps gain and that was tested during the time us moonkins were whining.)

Now that I play hunter though When I show up to raids now I don't feel that way playing BM... i'm still competitive damage. I'm still able to compete (outside cleave fights which as I say I think Beast Cleave needs a buff) But for me I do agree BM should be 1-2% buffed but overall I also see that at the end of the fight I'm in the top 5-8 on the dps chart.. I'm competitive in damage. and to me if a class is competetive there shouldn't be tons of begging for major buffs. The reality is we are getting buffs in 3 weeks already confirmed.. 4% which more than balances out the ilvl scaling (especially when we can get 6+jaws/KC trait points easily with crucible... So I'm more in a wait and see.... I do feel that there should be some "tax" to even out damage at the end of an average boss fight based on the assumption of X numbers of movements... due to the fact that without it you end up with guilds stacking hunters on every movement fight IE augur.

Sure, we can agree on that.

[Ladyoftheforest]

Sure there are always people who will stick to a certain spec.

But it was clear that in NH the balance between BM and MM was heavily skewed towards BM. I mean if I'm progressing on a hard boss, why would I play a spec that has stricter mobility and gets punished more when you're not quite familiar yet with certain fight AND also does lower top dps. VS playing a spec that has complete freedom of mobility, really can't mess up a rotation and does higher dps.
People tend to gravitate toward the latter for progression.

In ToS where MM is the better spec overal you see a much more even balance despite that. Because BM brings so many extra advantages. There was a topic on these forums a while back I think where someone went through the logs and saw that even in the higher tier guilds a lot of players were using BM for progression.

In my situation there weren't many groupmembers parsing 90+ during NH progression. If you can master MM and do well numberswise then in my opinion there is room for MM during progression. Especially if BM's aren't performing as they should be. The fact that MM isn't as easy as BM is the big attraction that brings me satisfaction and incentive to raid. But that doesn't mean I look down on BM. This enmity between the specs is really stupid.