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  1. #1

    Repeatedly increasing the ilvl of dungeon items

    I get that Blizzard wants to keep dungeons relevant throughout the expansion, but in doing this, they're making older raids irrelevant. There's no reason to run Emerald Nightmare or Trial of Valor now, because you can get higher ilvl gear in random heroics. Heck, there's not much reason to run Nighthold either, with Mythic dropping 885 baseline. You can breeze through low M+ to get 900 gear.

    Just kinda seems like one of those unwinnable situations; either dungeons become irrelevant as the expac goes on, or raids become irrelevant.

  2. #2
    There was no reason to run those raids when you could get 880 gear tokens from Nethershards.

    People still run those raids for AP and Titanforged..not for the basic gear.

    Raids have been made obsolete ever since LFR was introduced anyways.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by anon5123 View Post
    I get that Blizzard wants to keep dungeons relevant throughout the expansion, but in doing this, they're making older raids irrelevant. There's no reason to run Emerald Nightmare or Trial of Valor now, because you can get higher ilvl gear in random heroics. Heck, there's not much reason to run Nighthold either, with Mythic dropping 885 baseline. You can breeze through low M+ to get 900 gear.

    Just kinda seems like one of those unwinnable situations; either dungeons become irrelevant as the expac goes on, or raids become irrelevant.
    Raids have always become irrelevant as the new tier releases which is fine. New raids are always released so you want to filter people to them. Throughout the expansion you don't get new dungeons to funnel people to except for one or two. So it's easier to make all dungeons drop baselines items and let people farm them if they want.

  4. #4
    heroic terrace of endless springs 509 gear, LFR siege of org 528 gear.

    while heroic terrace was MUCH harder than LFR siege even in ilvl 550 gear, old raids always become irrelevant even if they are more difficult.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Spotnick View Post
    There was no reason to run those raids when you could get 880 gear tokens from Nethershards.
    5k nethershards takes a long time to farm, though. And then half the time you get a shit piece of gear with terrible stats that gets insta-d/e'd.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucetia View Post
    Raids have always become irrelevant as the new tier releases which is fine. New raids are always released so you want to filter people to them.
    Yeah, I get that, I just disagree with this whole notion of "everything except the most brand-new content is irrelevant" mindset that Blizzard has had, the past few expacs.

  6. #6
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by anon5123 View Post
    Just kinda seems like one of those unwinnable situations; either dungeons become irrelevant as the expac goes on, or raids become irrelevant.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tonus View Post
    I do think it's lame to keep increasing ilvls in dungeons though, I'd prefer if they released a few at a time like they do raids, with progressively increasing ilvls.
    When an expansion launches, you have several dungeons to choose from in order to get better gear. That's fine, lots of variation in where you might end up. As the expansion progresses, with the "newest dungeons has best gear" model, you end up only wanting to run those dungeons and you will get sick and tired of them fast. Case in point - ZA/ZG and the ICC/Hour of Twilight dungeons. With this scaling model, all dungeons are still relevant while making the old raids irrelevant. That is the best solution, so people do not feel forced to run old raids to gear up just to catch up. Case in point - TBC.

    As we are nearing the end of this expansion, it makes no sense to run Emerald Nightmare for upgrades. And if they stuck to the "newest dungeon" model, we would be running Triumvirate over and over and over and over and over again, which would piss off way more people than this current approach does. Old content is still available to run, but not a requirement. Which is a good thing.
    Last edited by mmoc4ce4b1614a; 2017-08-24 at 10:08 PM.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Ambrodel View Post
    Case in point - TBC.
    The problem with TBC was not just gear, but attunements. You had to do a shitload of previous dungeons and raids and farm rep and shit, in order to get access to the latest raid. And if you lose a raid member, you have to poach from other guilds because nobody else is attuned.

    There was catch-up gear in the form of T5-level badge gear, and ZA, but the attunements were still in place.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Vidget View Post
    That's because the iLvl reward structure in WoW is messed up and has been for years. The last raid LFR gear should be equal to the first raid mythic gear tops. They should just go for a +10 increment each tier like so:
    LFR: x10
    Normal: x20
    Heroic: x30
    Mythic: x40

    The next tier this becomes:
    LFR: x20
    Normal: x30
    Heroic: x40
    Mythic: x50

    And if dungeons need scaling keep them at current LFR levels throughout the expansion (except for m+ of course)
    2 main reasons they don't do this.

    1) top guilds breeze through the new raids because +10 ilvl on their current gear means nothing, they'll easily make the dps checks and you'll get day 1 clears, this means the raid lasts less time even for guilds who are say top 500 or 1000 at the moment a lot of guilds will only get KJ down after gaining a lot more ilvl and the gains from the netherlight crucible, this is on purpose to lengthen the raid. With the WF/TF system a 15 ilvl gap means there's more room for WF/TF, less ilvls = WF/TF becomes too good.

    2) players like to see how much more powerful they are getting, the less ilvl gains the less power gains, players are more likely to continue playing and gearing if they feel they can get big gains, if there is very little to gain people will lose interesting.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by anon5123 View Post
    The problem with TBC was not just gear, but attunements. You had to do a shitload of previous dungeons and raids and farm rep and shit, in order to get access to the latest raid. And if you lose a raid member, you have to poach from other guilds because nobody else is attuned.

    There was catch-up gear in the form of T5-level badge gear, and ZA, but the attunements were still in place.
    The attunements got removed about the same time that badge gear got introduced.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Vidget View Post
    And if dungeons need scaling keep them at current LFR levels throughout the expansion (except for m+ of course)
    So you're saying they're doing it to slowly?

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by anon5123 View Post
    I get that Blizzard wants to keep dungeons relevant throughout the expansion, but in doing this, they're making older raids irrelevant. There's no reason to run Emerald Nightmare or Trial of Valor now, because you can get higher ilvl gear in random heroics. Heck, there's not much reason to run Nighthold either, with Mythic dropping 885 baseline. You can breeze through low M+ to get 900 gear.

    Just kinda seems like one of those unwinnable situations; either dungeons become irrelevant as the expac goes on, or raids become irrelevant.
    There was already no reason to run them outside the extremely rare chance something gets a mondo titanforge/AP and BLP.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by anon5123 View Post
    5k nethershards takes a long time to farm, though. And then half the time you get a shit piece of gear with terrible stats that gets insta-d/e'd.


    Yeah, I get that, I just disagree with this whole notion of "everything except the most brand-new content is irrelevant" mindset that Blizzard has had, the past few expacs.
    It's really not long or hard to do it, I had my druid 890 geared in less than a week due to nethershards.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by anon5123 View Post
    Yeah, I get that, I just disagree with this whole notion of "everything except the most brand-new content is irrelevant" mindset that Blizzard has had, the past few expacs.
    If they had that mindset this expansion they wouldn't be keeping dungeons relevant... Raids would be messy to be kept relevant, no one WANTS to run the same raid day in and day out for 2 years because they keep it relevant, dungeons are 15 minutes and done. Also, better to have a larger pool of relevant dungeons, god I got so bored of doing them when it was just like... ZA and ZG...

  12. #12
    EN remains relevant because you can stomp it in sub 20 mins and basically get free BLP.

    NH remains relevant because of the above, but not quite as fast as well as some gear still being BiS TFed as well as Gul'Dan mounts.

    People do old raids more this xpac then they have in any since WOTLK. They're as relevant as they can possibly be.

  13. #13
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by anon5123 View Post
    I get that Blizzard wants to keep dungeons relevant throughout the expansion, but in doing this, they're making older raids irrelevant. There's no reason to run Emerald Nightmare or Trial of Valor now, because you can get higher ilvl gear in random heroics. Heck, there's not much reason to run Nighthold either, with Mythic dropping 885 baseline. You can breeze through low M+ to get 900 gear.

    Just kinda seems like one of those unwinnable situations; either dungeons become irrelevant as the expac goes on, or raids become irrelevant.
    You are meant to progress through raids and move on. Dungeons are most of the time all you get(1 dungeon being relevant isnt enough).
    If they had to do the same for raids then people would have to run multiple raids each week? It doesnt really make sense.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Socialhealer View Post
    2 main reasons they don't do this.

    1) top guilds breeze through the new raids because +10 ilvl on their current gear means nothing, they'll easily make the dps checks and you'll get day 1 clears, this means the raid lasts less time even for guilds who are say top 500 or 1000 at the moment a lot of guilds will only get KJ down after gaining a lot more ilvl and the gains from the netherlight crucible, this is on purpose to lengthen the raid. With the WF/TF system a 15 ilvl gap means there's more room for WF/TF, less ilvls = WF/TF becomes too good.

    2) players like to see how much more powerful they are getting, the less ilvl gains the less power gains, players are more likely to continue playing and gearing if they feel they can get big gains, if there is very little to gain people will lose interesting.
    1) Why should we care about that? Time was, this game didn't need that kind of excuse to shore up subscription revenues. The way Vidget described it was more or less how it worked in Wrath and Cataclysm, and no one was bothered by it then! All of a sudden in Pandaland we had runaway ilvl inflation and people soloing raid bosses in the current expansion.

    2) I feel this is overstated. Typical player cares more about shinies than power, unless they need more power to get shinies.
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  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Lumineus View Post
    1) Why should we care about that? Time was, this game didn't need that kind of excuse to shore up subscription revenues. The way Vidget described it was more or less how it worked in Wrath and Cataclysm, and no one was bothered by it then! All of a sudden in Pandaland we had runaway ilvl inflation and people soloing raid bosses in the current expansion.

    2) I feel this is overstated. Typical player cares more about shinies than power, unless they need more power to get shinies.
    1) i didn't say it's good its just why blizzard do it, blizzard aren't so smart.

    2)ilvl is shinies to a lot of ppl.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by matheney2k View Post
    But old raids aren't irrelevant. People are still doing the balance of power quests on alts daily (or AP/leggo farm groups) for old raids. EM and NH at least still see PLENTY of action idk what you are talking about.

    And now they are keeping dungeons relevant as well with constant ilvl upgrades? Win win why the tears?
    I agree with this sentiment. There are many small rewards for running old raids if you still want to at the moment (transmog, bad luck protection for legs, AP, few mounts) which keeps a small community running them if you want to find a group. If they were still a solid source of gear people would feel obligated to run them every week, which may be ok for people with a lot of time to play, but a vast majority don't want to feel like they HAVE to spend 6+ hours a week running all the raids to stay relevant. Like others said keeping the original dungeons relevant makes it so you don't get stuck with one or two dungeons every week later in the expansion.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Vidget View Post
    Make it +20 then, or heck make it +100. The point isn't the numbers but how they increase in relation to each other.
    For example LFR ToS award the same quality of gear as heroic NH which was the previous tier when it should in fact award the same quality gear as normal NH at best.

    An even better example if you insist on ridiculous power gains:
    LFR T1: 830
    Normal T1: 860
    Heroic T1: 890
    Mythic T1: 920

    LFR T2: 860
    Normal T2: 890
    Heroic T2: 920
    Mythic T2: 950
    theory is nice but theory doesnt work with people - if somebody sees that he has all pieces with around 900 itlv and then see that the potential instance drops 905 itlv then he thinks "eeew thats just 5 itlv and i have 900 - its not worth to waste time "

    people need to feel the gain in itlv - without that they wont bother

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by anon5123 View Post
    There's no reason to run Emerald Nightmare or Trial of Valor now.

    But that's why they implemented their brilliant bad luck protection for legendaries.... and Titanforging /s

  19. #19
    Its good they are keeping dungeons relevant but cos of mythic+ I am getting sick of them quicker. Maybe have less dungeons at the start? People are lvling mostly with quests anyway

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Vidget View Post
    Make it +20 then, or heck make it +100. The point isn't the numbers but how they increase in relation to each other.
    For example LFR ToS award the same quality of gear as heroic NH which was the previous tier when it should in fact award the same quality gear as normal NH at best.

    An even better example if you insist on ridiculous power gains:
    LFR T1: 830
    Normal T1: 860
    Heroic T1: 890
    Mythic T1: 920

    LFR T2: 860
    Normal T2: 890
    Heroic T2: 920
    Mythic T2: 950
    It's a nice theory, but how does this motivate the normal/heroic raiders who can't manage a full farm on the next difficulty but can kill some bosses? Next tier rolls out, they're replacing gear with the same ilvl stuff. That's not making the new raid alluring.
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