A general lack of Paladin development?

[Morally Grey Storm]

Sorry bruv, but theres nothing manly about you. at all.
Keyboard warrior gtfo

Such a pity I couldn't give a feth about an opinion of a certain noone.
But you can try to amuse me. Try again Bragg.

[Deleted]

The ret discord offers whatever you may need you just have to check the FAQ and actually read. It´s pretty unfair to call out the ret discord for not being helpful and the guides being under developed. That you feel like there is no passion or in depth analysis for the specc has a lot of reasons:

1. and foremost we lost a shitton of excellent theorycrafters. I daresay we had one of the best but they have gone MIA due to not being listened to
2. frankly it was and is not worth the effort to create enormous spread sheets also mass does not equal quality
3. ret mechanics are a clusterfuck of different ideas resulting in contradicting priorities therefore stats are in constant flux
4. we do not have any kind of mention worthy scaling we don´t have an thresholds or caps we have to reach
5. above facts didn´t change significantly since release you would still play ret ok with a 7.0 guide

Oh and "Sim it!" is the best and most honest answer anyone can give you in ret discord. Ret is a clusterfuck so no one can and will go with his gut feelings and possibly guide you in the wrong direction. We are no Frost DKs where the mantra is 20% haste 25% mastery rest vers. It´s simply not possible.

So think before you fuck around about ret discord.

Did i fuck around with ret discord ?
Pointing out the difference in quality of theorycrafting in the community is not a bad thing. (the king is nakid by fire be purged).
And again biggest issue is with development having done a miserable job. Only thing they done this expansion that didnt have a direct blow in the nuts is tuning the numbers. Whenever they tried to touch mechanics or talents or w/e they fucked things up completely.
I mean even tier sets give a headache when u try to play properly.
And by the way as a ret i totally agree with exorsus about the quality of testing from blizz and that they treat players as testing dummies

[Marrilaife]

I felt like prot paladin was ok.

I felt so as well until I saw how our "powerful" active mitigation gets outscaled by other tank's active mitigations (5 stacks of ironfur at once lol), our hp pool is at least 25% behind other tanks, and our mechanics (like active mitigation and eye of tyr requiring melee target) are being sub par when it comes to things like soaking stuff (not the first time, odyn spear was the same problem but back then you could build a very long "wall" of active mitigation and now it's nerfed).

I can understand self healing tanks like dk or dh need extra hp but why the heck monk with agility consumables has more hp than paladin with stamina consumables? Monk is king of smoothing anyway what for they get the extra hp? Also, paladin due to light of the protector and gaps in active mitigation is a form of self healing tank too. They need the hp pool to be able to utilize this self healing tools well.

Tbh all was needed to push blood dk from "trash" to "good" was fix boneshield and give traits that increase your hp as you play. And what they do to paladins? Buff armor. Because magic damage, bleeds and all the other stuff that bypasses armor are not a thing?

Also the problem is other tanks, especially druids and monks have really strong dps relic & legendary options, and tank dps does matter. Paladin pants are good, but not as good. And the relic options are nothing amazing. Best dps trait? Duration of consecration. Caveat? The mob actually needs to stand in it, it's a zero dps increase to stack them if the mobs are constantly moving or dying before it's over. And a lot of encounters require you to frequently reposition the mobs. Since we're coming to a situation soon you'll be able to stack minor traits to 7/7 having a really good trait option is getting much more stronger than at the start of expansion.

[Thundering]

Sure as sure.
The most bestestest place there is.
Thank the Emperor I did not overstay my welcome there, that is - 5 or so minutes, due to a some faceless vaguely female twat calling for mommy-moder to kiss the boo-boo and shoo away the big bad Storm.



Judgement Smash has nothing to do with Colossus Smash.
And actual, real Colossus Smash gameplay is awesome.

The Emperor's light won't shine upon the heretic! Maybe after 10 000 years of Crusade against his enemys!


I wish we got more development for all the speccs to give paladins a bit more unique anf fun playstyle=(

[Tanthoris]

If prot doesn't get any sort of changes in 7.3.5 before the next raid comes out it's going to drop to bottom tier tank because right now they can pretty much get 2 shot by some bosses even through their mitigation. Prot honestly hasn't gotten any sort of real buff since Legion dropped, in the first 3 raids they managed well because they could handle magic damage like a boss, but they haven't been able to manage against high damage spikes as well as other tanks.

Ret playstyle has been a mess all of Legion, seems like blizz doesn't really know how to handle it which just makes it impossible to figure out what gear is good, and what is bad. Also one of the least mobile melee dps next to DK, but at least DKs have several abilities that can be cast from range, while ret has 2 small CDs and a finisher that sort of works at range.

I'm sure there is something wrong with holy too, but my guilds holy paly took time off for work so I haven't heard anything about holy issues in a while from anyone I know. I personally don't care for it's playstyle of being a semi-melee range healer who is still stuck doing all the mechanics like a ranged healer when Fistweaver monks used to be considered melee by most mechanics when in melee range.

Sadly nothing for paladin is coming in 7.3, so we just have to hope and inform blizzard of the issues before 7.3.5 hits so we can hopefully get some changes before Legion ends with Paladin being one of the saddest classes.

[Morally Grey Storm]

The Emperor's light won't shine upon the heretic! Maybe after 10 000 years of Crusade against his enemys!


I wish we got more development for all the speccs to give paladins a bit more unique anf fun playstyle=(

No heretic, sure as sure, but the one who's clean. Sole survivor.

But indeed, more actual development would not hurt.
What pains the most is potential is there to tap. Vast. Practically endless.
Yet this "retribution" is as bland as never before.
They removed all that made retribution the spec we knew. No utility, no offhealing, no self-sustain, no more funky if gimmicky judgement play.
And what's worse, they removed all the defensives we had yet didn't give any offensive potential in return, and topped it off with literally negative mobility.
You have to actually try real hard to fail that hard.

[Deleted]

I thought only retribution had bad developers.
Then i read this in the notes:
"There should now be much less DPS and survivability swing between Seraphim and non-Seraphim builds. Non-Seraphim builds now do better damage, and Seraphim builds do not sacrifice as much defense as they previously did.

Seraphim cooldown increased to 45 seconds (was 30 seconds)".

I dont trust these guys to bring me coffee from downstairs how much getting paid for game development.

[Tanthoris]

Mate, the armor buff is not that minor. Our armor buff increased from +20% to +35% that is a fairly significant buff to effective health.

You do realize that 15% buff to armor isn't even 5% damage mitigation, it sounds like a super great buff, but honestly it's lackluster and not enough to make up for the fact that their effective health is the lowest of all the tanks in game atm. It's been the generic "fix" that blizzard has tried with tanks all Legion, here have some more armor cuz we really aren't sure how to fix your spec now that Legion has launched.

[Deleted]

You do realize that 15% buff to armor isn't even 5% damage mitigation, it sounds like a super great buff, but honestly it's lackluster and not enough to make up for the fact that their effective health is the lowest of all the tanks in game atm. It's been the generic "fix" that blizzard has tried with tanks all Legion, here have some more armor cuz we really aren't sure how to fix your spec now that Legion has launched.

If you go from 50% damage reduction to 55% damage reduction that is effectively 10% less damage taken which is a very noticable difference

[Morally Grey Storm]

If you go from 50% damage reduction to 55% damage reduction that is effectively 10% less damage taken which is a very noticable difference

A 2 million melee will hit for 100k less.
Is 100k a noticeable difference?

[Deleted]

A 2 million melee will hit for 100k less.
Is 100k a noticeable difference?

What you talking about Storm. Thats super important. We used to takea ret pali to buff kings on tank for that sole reason and it was not constant !!

[Morally Grey Storm]

What you talking about Storm. Thats super important. We used to takea ret pali to buff kings on tank for that sole reason and it was not constant !!

I am talking about numbers and their actual impact.
Do Kings provide an actual, palpable effect? Do they make a difference which you can place your finger on?
Will this change provide such an impact?

[Deleted]

I am talking about numbers and their actual impact.
Do Kings provide an actual, palpable effect? Do they make a difference which you can place your finger on?
Will this change provide such an impact?

But but. Super utility for retribution m8. Class fantasy. Greater Blessing of kings been the single most importantest buff followed by wisdom

[Tanthoris]

But but. Super utility for retribution m8. Class fantasy. Greater Blessing of kings been the single most importantest buff followed by wisdom

It's the most important buff because there are no buffs now, that's like saying that 1 in more important than 0 in binary, it's the only other option.

And going back to the armor buff for prot paladin, as storm said if you're hit for 2mil 100k really won't keep you alive on fights like KJ where that 2mil hit will happen 5 times in a row, so yes 500k sounds like it's a lot, BUT prot is 1-3 mil HP lower than all the other tanks so a passive armor buff won't help with prots biggest real issue, low health pool and a lower compared effective health than other tank specs.

[Morally Grey Storm]

But but. Super utility for retribution m8. Class fantasy. Greater Blessing of kings been the single most importantest buff followed by wisdom

My caremeter shows dead zero.


Also, my memory may be a little bit rusty so could you please remind me exactly how does armor help with mitigating magic damage and what's the percent ratio between physical and magical damage in ToS ?

[Deleted]

I wonder how much anyone would care if it was removed completely next patch

[Deleted]

A 2 million melee will hit for 100k less.
Is 100k a noticeable difference?

If you had 50% armor that would be a 4 million hit before armor meaning it would hit for 5% of 4 milloin less so 200k which is not huge but it does add up.

You shouldnt mix up raw damage taken with psot armor damage taken when comparing armor buffs sicne going from 0% damage reduction to 10% damage reduction lowers your overall damage taken by 10% but going from 50% damage reduction to 55% damage reduction also lowers your overall damage taken by 10%.

Armor actually scales very linear when it comes to effective health comaprisions even is the % damage reduction each individual armor point is lower the more armor you get.

Also on a 5mill post armor hit it would be 500k less damage taken which is rather nice essentially it will mean that a lot of things that ran the risk of oneshotting palladin tanks will no longer be a oneshot.

[Morally Grey Storm]

And if you had 90% mitigation armor, how would it help against a magical attack?
Prots have shit for health scaling, and no armor minibuff will solve that.

[Deleted]

And if you had 90% mitigation armor, how would it help against a magical attack?
Prots have shit for health scaling, and no armor minibuff will solve that.

Afaik magic damage really isn't a problem for any tank in tos seeing as all the major hard hitting things that push away prot paladins atm do physical damage.

And prot has generally done rather well with magic damage this expansion

[Toppy]

Removing holy power from prot was, and still is, a god awful idea.