Why does the lich king behave differently now?

[Deleted]

Also if Nerz'hul was destroyed why there was is "soul" still there?

...

[Thage]

Also if Nerz'hul was destroyed why there was is "soul" still there?

...

It's almost like Frostmourne drinks souls...

[Deleted]

OK so

NERZHUL WAS DESTROYED

-> Still in the "blade"

ARTHAS WAS DESTROYED IN THE BLADE aka FROSTMOURNE and REFORGED

-> Arthas still there

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So just to recap the retcon.


ARTHAS NEVER DESTROYED NERZHUL a. when took the crown b. in the book, otherwise no soul in the Blade.

aka

Arthas' soul is trapped in Frostmourne, which was shattered? And Ner-zhul is there with him? The guy who Arthas supposivly vanquished in a Warcraft novel? So was Arthas under Ner'zhul's control the whole time?
What now? Ner'zhul from within the blades, manipulate the DK to kill Bolvar and wotlk 2.0?

[Eazy]

ARTHAS NEVER DESTROYED NERZHUL a. when took the crown b. in the book, otherwise no soul in the Blade.

FALSE.

He killed him. It's explained in the Rise of the Lich King by Christie Golden.

ARTHAS was mad and full of anger towards Mal'ganis.
He got FROSTMOURNE that slowly devoured his soul.
When he got the HELM OF DOMINION he and ner'zhul become a NEW ENTITY with mixed personality.

Also FALSE.

Arthas killed Ner'zhul and was still ARTHAS, but without soft emotions and with Ner'zhul knowledge, visions, memory and experience.

[Deleted]

FALSE.

He killed him. It's explained in the Rise of the Lich King by Christie Golden.

Again? It is bullshit.

Was a dream state.

Otherwise why he is still in the sword? Blizzard didn't close really well the story and tried to fix it, badly.

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Also FALSE.

Arthas killed Ner'zhul and was still ARTHAS, but without soft emotions and with Ner'zhul knowledge, visions, memory and experience.

BS too this.


Guys please at least read the posts, i have already explained in the "DK PANDA DREAM" thread.

[Eazy]

Again? It is bullshit.

It's explained that there were two person inside(after he put Crown of Damnation and slept on the Frozen Throne). A little boy(little Arthas, which represented his "soft emotions", such as love for Jaina, mercy etc.) and Ner'Zhul, he killed them both. And in the end it's said something like "There's only ARTHAS".

Not sure about the sword part.

Again? It is bullshit.

Was a dream state.

Otherwise why he is still in the sword? Blizzard didn't close really well the story and tried to fix it, badly.

[COLOR="#417394"]
Guys please at least read the posts, i have already explained in the "DK PANDA DREAM" thread.

It's in the book. If you have any other arguments, please say so or give a source.

[Deleted]

Interlude BEFORE WOTLK

The Lich King sat dormant for several years while storms raged across Northrend and his minions constructed Icecrown Citadel around the Frozen Throne. While the Lich King dreamt, the various personas in his mind - the death knight Arthas Menethil, the orc shaman Ner'zhul, and Matthias Lehner, the personification of the remnants of Arthas's humanity - fought for influence and control over the entity.

Matthias tried to reason with Arthas, but Arthas silenced him by running him through with Frostmourne. Ner'zhul was delighted by this, declaring that he and Arthas were now free to merge into a single glorious being. Arthas rejected this offer, stating that once he had the power of the Lich King, no one would tell him what to do again. He impaled the stunned Ner'zhul with Frostmourne, becoming the dominantpersonality of the Lich King and ending the dream.[28]

Not a single "killed this" "Killed this other one" just DOMINANT= "occupying or being in a commanding or elevated position", you are not DOMINANT if you are the only one.

DREAM
R
E
A
M

And still in game we had MATTHIAS during WOTLK (AFTER THE NOVEL) and NERZHUL in LEGION and EVEN ARTHAS.


FUCKING READ.

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It's in the book.

There are "things" in wow books that got retconned or non canon, so not sure how "is in the book" is a supreme proof.

[Eazy]

FUCKING READ.

Chill.

Not a single "killed this" "Killed this other one"

In my book it's clearly translated that he killed them both.

DREAM
R
E
A
M

Does it matter? He couldn't fight with him in the physical form for obvious reasons.

And still in game we had MATTHIAS during WOTLK (AFTER THE NOVEL) and NERZHUL in LEGION and EVEN ARTHAS.

The book came after the wotlk, so I think that maybe Blizzard decided to retcon their game?

There are "things" in wow books that got retconned or non canon, so not sure how "is in the book" is a supreme proof.

Ya, the novels are pretty much considered canon, um, the funny thing is some things are less canon, we shoot for canon...typically the characters in novels are canon...
-Chris Metzen

They also changed a few things in the game, just to make it fit into the lore from the book. (see red shirt guy)

I'm choosing @Aquamonkey to resolve this problem.

[mickybrighteyes]

Bolvar is pretty crazy, during the DK campaign he says something along the lines of "if you fall I will take back Archerus"

What's crazy about that?

[Deleted]

Chill.

Sorry but you have no idea, how many times I had to explain the LK in this forum and people still doesnt read.

In my book it's clearly translated that he killed them both.

So why all of "them" are still alive in game?

Does it matter? He couldn't fight with him in the physical form for obvious reasons.

nope because every LK need "time" to awake from slumber to full power (nerzhul did too and bolvar is somewhat doing) doesn't matter physical form or not, the "dream" was a metaphor.

The book came after the wotlk, so I think that maybe Blizzard decided to retcon their game?

WOTLK release nov 2008

ROTLK release april 2009 but finished jun 2008.


So they retcon a game before releasing but not editing the "what" part?

[Nnyco]

If you been reading the dks storyline and the threads on this forum already you would see that he is going crazy and having the dks attack people they should be allied with

could have just given tirion, i mean why is it more important to leave him rest instead of reviving him to fight vs the legion
same with the reds ignoring that we get attacked by the legion and could use that power

[Aquamonkey]

Arthas murders the manifestation of his humanity, then destroys Ner'zhul:

“We are one, Arthas. Together, we are the Lich King. No more Ner’zhul, no more Arthas—only this one glorious being. With my knowledge, we can—”
His eyes bulged as the sword impaled him.
Arthas stepped forward, plunging the glittering, hungering Frostmourne ever deeper into the dream-being that had once been Ner’zhul, then the Lich King, and was soon to be nothing, nothing at all. He slipped his other arm around the body, pressing his lips so close to the green ear that the gesture was almost intimate, as intimate as the act of taking a life always was and always would be.
“No,” Arthas whispered. “No we. No one tells me what to do. I’ve got everything I need from you—now the power is mine and mine alone. Now there is only I. I am the Lich King. And I am ready.”
The orc shuddered in his arms, stunned by the betrayal, and vanished.
...
Arthas, the Lich King, alone in his glory and power, slowly opened his eyes.
--Rise of the Lich King

In the manga Legends: Fate, Arthas says, "Ner'zhul is no more. He is consumed. There is only Arthas now..."

During BlizzCon 2010, Metzen said Arthas was the ultimate expression of the LK and that Ner'zhul is finished:

Q. I have a question regarding the storyline of Ner'zhul: is he finished, or what's going on with that?
A. "Yes. Yeah, Ner'zhul is done. He served us well in that capacity, but really the Lich King idea... really has the ultimate expression, you know, as Arthas or whatever. Ner'zhul's done." (Source)

The Ask CDev says Ner'zhul and Arthas had separate reigns as Lich King:

Yes, that does also mean that Arthas and Ner'zhul were not unleashing the full force of the Scourge during their respective reigns: you are welcome to speculate on the reasons for that. (AskCDev2)

Metzen says Ner'zhul is completely gone:

Is ne'zhul completely gone gone?
Far as I'm concerned. (ChrisMetzen)

I don't remember when Loreology posted this tweet, but it was sometime in 2014 before Aug 3. All his tweets disappeared when he deleted his account.

Okay, my friend and I are at each other's throats over this. Is Ner'zhul's spirit destroyed canonically or not?
So it seems per the Arthas novel (p. 307). (Loreology)

Blizzard initially intended the Lich King to be a blend of Arthas and Ner'zhul, but they changed the direction they went with that character. The Lich King was just Arthas.

[Eazy]

Blizzard initially intended the Lich King to be a blend of Arthas and Ner'zhul, but they changed the direction they went with that character. The Lich King was just Arthas.

Case closed.

[Deleted]

Metzen says Ner'zhul is completely gone:

Is ne'zhul completely gone gone?
Far as I'm concerned. (ChrisMetzen)

Write the complete answer please

Far as I'm concerned.
Does anyone in this universe ever really stay dead?

emh.

also the other tweet is no more avaiable but

"So it seems per the Arthas novel (p. 307)."

Not even "YES." but a bland "IT SEEMS"



Stop begin naive and understand that not even them know, otherwise there would have been no nerzhul or arthas echoes.

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During BlizzCon 2010, Metzen said Arthas was the ultimate expression of the LK and that Ner'zhul is finished:

Q. I have a question regarding the storyline of Ner'zhul: is he finished, or what's going on with that?
A. "Yes. Yeah, Ner'zhul is done. He served us well in that capacity, but really the Lich King idea... really has the ultimate expression, you know, as Arthas or whatever. Ner'zhul's done." (Source)

Blizzard initially intended the Lich King to be a blend of Arthas and Ner'zhul, but they changed the direction they went with that character. The Lich King was just Arthas.

"The Lich King was just Arthas"

Tweet above

"as Arthas or whatever"

I like the precision.

[Thimagryn]

Sorry but you have no idea, how many times I had to explain the LK in this forum and people still doesnt read.

Nah. You just can't accept the truth that everyone's already telling you because you've made up your mind what you want to believe. Explain all you want, it's no more the truth than what you want it to be. You've even convinced yourself that the reason no one agrees with you is because they're all wrong and you're right. But it's been stated by big Blue themselves that Arthas is the Lich King per retcon, and whatever semantics you're using to parse any other meaning conflicts with Blizzard's own intent for Arthas to be the definitive personality that remained in the Lich King to push the Wrath of the Lich King narrative.

If Blizzard wants to retcon it again and say Ner'zhul still exists or it was all a dream, they could. But they haven't, and they have been extremely clear that they intend Arthas to be the sole personality within the Lich King and that Ner'zhul is gone because 'he's served his purpose in the story'.

As for 'every LK need "time" to awake from slumber', that's just what you observed. If Blizzard makes a next expansion where Sylvanas or Kel'thuzad takes the role of Lich King, they could do so and be bestowed with power immediately to become the next big bad without any 'slumber'. What you're saying here isn't definitive, it's observational headcanon. We don't actually know if every Lich King needs time to build their power or not. The only reason Arthas wasn't an immediate threat after Frozen Throne is because of gameplay reasons; WoW needed time to build up to the Lich King as a main enemy.

[Deleted]

Case closed.

Unfortunatley game and other lore source tells different things.

Not surprising

[Al Gorefiend]

Bolvar is slowly going mad, but iirc he knew he would and is trying to fight it. Whereas Arthas embraced it.

[Eazy]

Write the complete answer please

emh.

Does it change anything? Ner'zhul was gone, there was only Arthas.

Not even "YES." but a bland "IT SEEMS"

"It seems" is as good answer as "yes", lol.

Stop begin naive and understand that not even them know, otherwise there would have been no nerzhul or arthas echoes.

There's also echo of Aegwynn in TOS, does that mean she's alive? Not really.

Unfortunatley game and other lore source tells different things.

Keep saying that yourself if it satisfies you. Also - sources for that - and I meant REAL SOURCES, not speculation that "they were still alive in the ICC questchain", because that isn't argument. As I just said teh same scenario with Aegwynn - echo is just an echo.

Nah. You just can't accept the truth that everyone's already telling you because you've made up your mind what you want to believe. Explain all you want, it's no more the truth than what you want it to be. You've even convinced yourself that the reason no one agrees with you is because they're all wrong and you're right. But it's been stated by big Blue themselves that Arthas is Arthas per retcon, and whatever semantics you're using to parse any other meaning conflicts with Blizzard's own intent for Arthas to be the definitive personality that remained in the Lich King to push the Wrath of the Lich King narrative.

If Blizzard wants to retcon it again and say Ner'zhul still exists or it was all a dream, they could. But they haven't, and they have been extremely clear that they intend Arthas to be the sole personality within the Lich King and that Ner'zhul is gone because 'he's served his purpose in the story'.

As for 'every LK need "time" to awake from slumber', that's just what you observed. If Blizzard makes a next expansion where Sylvanas or Kel'thuzad takes the role of Lich King, they could do so and be bestowed with power immediately to become the next big bad without any 'slumber'. What you're saying here isn't definitive, it's observational headcanon.

Exactly. You're going to show him proofs in the book, comics, Blizzcon, tweets, even DIRECTLY from the Chris Metzen - but he's still going to say that Ner'zhul is/was alive because there was just an echo of Arthas soft emotion in ICC questline, lol.

[Deleted]

Nah. You just can't accept the truth that everyone's already telling you because you've made up your mind what you want to believe. Explain all you want, it's no more the truth than what you want it to be. You've even convinced yourself that the reason no one agrees with you is because they're all wrong and you're right. But it's been stated by big Blue themselves that Arthas is Arthas per retcon, and whatever semantics you're using to parse any other meaning conflicts with Blizzard's own intent for Arthas to be the definitive personality that remained in the Lich King to push the Wrath of the Lich King narrative.

If Blizzard wants to retcon it again and say Ner'zhul still exists or it was all a dream, they could. But they haven't, and they have been extremely clear that they intend Arthas to be the sole personality within the Lich King and that Ner'zhul is gone because 'he's served his purpose in the story'.

As for 'every LK need "time" to awake from slumber', that's just what you observed. If Blizzard makes a next expansion where Sylvanas or Kel'thuzad takes the role of Lich King, they could do so and be bestowed with power immediately to become the next big bad without any 'slumber'. What you're saying here isn't definitive, it's observational headcanon.

Stated by big blue XD nice proof.

Like when they tried to explain demon then retconned in chronicles and now in argus.

[Alvito]

Bolvar has turned and in very little time too.