2018 gerrymandering problem is really bad

[Elegiac]

On what basis are they discriminatory and unconstitutional? They appear to be considered unconstitutional based on the fact that they're discriminatory, which is a strange claim given the US's past, but even if we ignore that - you have to prove that voter ID would cause discrimination.

Voter ID, for those who don't know, works like this:

You show your picture ID outside the booth along with your voting ticket that also has your name on it
Your name is checked off a list
You are given an anonymous ballot in exchange
Everyone writes their cross with the same pencil
The ballots are put into a box, which is then shaken before counting so that it is impossible to tell who threw in which vote
All parties can watch the counting process as it happens to prevent cheating

You forgot some steps, when it comes to American voter ID.

Attach increasingly higher costs towards obtain legitimate photo ID.
Limit the number of places/hours where photo ID can be obtained.
Limit the types of photo ID that are accepted.
Increase restrictions as to who qualifies for valid photo ID.

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This is not an argument against voter ID. This is an argument against corruption.

The two are not distinct when it comes to voter ID in the US.

A voter ID MUST be free for anyone to acquire, be very low cost, and it MUST contain a photo of the holder as well as a name. Anything else won't work.

Meanwhile, such a thing exists today, and it costs around 10 pence and anybody can get it. We already have the ID we need. What's the problem here?

The fact this isn't the fucking United Kingdom we're discussing. Context.

[Gestopft]

I agree a pay raise would help the middle class more than a tax cut. But you are failing to miss the point that the tax cut leads to growth, which leads to a pay raise. Pay raises happen in a booming economy, not an endless recession.

1) Growth can be distributed in very different ways. Simple tax cuts do nothing to make sure that everybody benefits from said growth
2) We aren't going to have a booming economy until the American consumer is stronger. We need policies that are going to directly and most efficiently benefit the consumer base.

Also, your notion that tax policy has no impact on growth is just about the most ridiculous notion I have ever heard. Please give us the name of your economics instructor, so we can have their teaching license revoked.

Luckily I never said that. I just think you are greatly overestimating the amount of growth we will see. Cutting taxes on the middle class will be fine, but not the most effective policy to generate growth. Cutting taxes on the poor, who mostly are tax exempt, won't do much. Cutting taxes on the rich and corporations will grow the hell out of the stock market, I'm sure, but as far as wage and job growth? Again, look at the Bush tax holiday for what happened when companies got access to billions of dollars in capital. Tax cuts aren't going to fix whats wrong with our economy, because the fundamental problems underlying our economy have nothing to do with taxes being too high

The Trump administration is no the record saying they will not sign a tax bill that gives any significant cut to the wealthy. The modest rate reduction is off set by loop hole removal, which I think we can all agree is the actual big issue.

So if it's near neutral, or insignificantly cut for the wealthy, where's the tremendous growth going to come from? From the middle-class tax cuts? There are plenty of policies that would be far better for the middle class than a tax cut (as we agreed, they need a raise more than a tax cut).

So again, just like every time in US history, the left sees a tax cut for all brackets as a "tax cut for the rich". The blatant commitment to being non-serious is pretty telling, imo.

Seeing as tax cuts are supposed to be balanced with a reduction in spending, you could easily have a situation where the programs that are cut are those that help lower or middle class families. A tax cut is nice, but soured by the prospect of losing some other form of assistance. The rich always win when taxes are cut across the board, but everybody else may not necessarily. There's also the historical context: top marginal and corporate brackets used to be much higher when the economy was working well for everybody- not to imply a causative effect, but but the idea that taxes have to be low to have a burgeoning middle class is completely disproven by history.

[Ishayu]

You forgot some steps, when it comes to American voter ID.

Attach increasingly higher costs towards obtain legitimate photo ID.
Limit the number of places/hours where photo ID can be obtained.
Limit the types of photo ID that are accepted.
Increase restrictions as to who qualifies for valid photo ID.

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The two are not distinct when it comes to voter ID in the US.



The fact this isn't the fucking United Kingdom we're discussing. Context.

You appear to be arguing that voter ID cannot work in the US because you don't think it is possible to craft the ID law in such a way that it is not prone to these kinds of corruption.

How about crafting a law that fixes those 4 above issues.

Attach increasingly higher costs towards obtain legitimate photo ID.

A valid voter ID can be obtained for $1. End of discussion.

Limit the number of places/hours where photo ID can be obtained.

The above voter ID's can be obtained at any police station from 9 AM to 5 PM. When issuing the voter ID, the police must run some checks to ensure that you are indeed who you claim to be, in the same way they do with a passport. Not approximately the same way, mind you. The EXACT same way.

Limit the types of photo ID that are accepted.

That photo ID is accepted. If that one is accepted, anyone can get it.

Increase restrictions as to who qualifies for valid photo ID.

Every American citizen above the age of 18 can get a voter ID at any of the above police stations.

Any police station that does not follow these rules can be taken to the district court, or even the supreme court, and the district will be fined dozens of millions of dollars, plus the head of the police department will be suspended for a year if found guilty.

Furthermore, it should be possible to get your voter ID anywhere in your state.

There, I just fixed every single problem you claim would exist. The proposals from the GOP have largely had all of those elements, but they keep being struck down by democratic-appointed judges because the democratic party does not want this. The only reason why that I can think of is they want to commit voter fraud, but the evidence of voter fraud is quite small, although definitely there.

[Orbitus]

A valid voter ID can be obtained for $1. End of discussion.

This right here is illegal. It is a poll tax and has been ruled unconstitutional. Oh and the rest of your tripe, is bullshit. Not all police stations are places you can get driver's licenses or ids.

[Elegiac]

You appear to be arguing that voter ID cannot work in the US because you don't think it is possible to craft the ID law in such a way that it is not prone to these kinds of corruption.

How about crafting a law that fixes those 4 above issues.

We have. See: Washington's mail in system.

Which the Republicans despise because it doesn't discriminate against minorities.

A valid voter ID can be obtained for $1. End of discussion.

Not in all states.

The above voter ID's can be obtained at any police station from 9 AM to 5 PM. When issuing the voter ID, the police must run some checks to ensure that you are indeed who you claim to be, in the same way they do with a passport. Not approximately the same way, mind you. The EXACT same way.

Rubbish. This is not applicable to all states and isn't likely to last under a GOP Voter ID effort.

Any police station that does not follow these rules can be taken to the district court, or even the supreme court, and the district will be fined dozens of millions of dollars, plus the head of the police department will be suspended for a year if found guilty.

Furthermore, it should be possible to get your voter ID anywhere in your state.

You mean those rules which were set in place precisely because the above issues kept happening and keep happening?

There, I just fixed every single problem you claim would exist. The proposals from the GOP have largely had all of those elements, but they keep being struck down by democratic-appointed judges because the democratic party does not want this. The only reason why that I can think of is they want to commit voter fraud, but the evidence of voter fraud is quite small, although definitely there.

Cool story. The GOP isn't interested in implementing any of these because their whole voter ID effort is based with the intent of restricting Democrat voters from voting. This is an acknowledged fact in the US.

[Gestopft]

Cool story. The GOP isn't interested in implementing any of these because their whole voter ID effort is based with the intent of restricting Democrat voters from voting. This is an acknowledged fact in the US.

A fact which they sometimes accidentally (or not so accidentally) admit from time to time.

[Kallisto]

The fact this isn't the fucking United Kingdom we're discussing. Context.

Hell in the UK we don't even need ID to vote. If you're registered you get a voting card through the post (No picture ID or anything). As a house with 3 adults there's no stopping me taking one of the other males in the house card and vote. But people just don't do it because we know it isn't needed.

[Ishayu]

We have. See: Washington's mail in system.

Which the Republicans despise because it doesn't discriminate against minorities.

Not in all states.

Rubbish. This is not applicable to all states and isn't likely to last under a GOP Voter ID effort.

You mean those rules which were set in place precisely because the above issues kept happening and keep happening?

Cool story. The GOP isn't interested in implementing any of these because their whole voter ID effort is based with the intent of restricting Democrat voters from voting. This is an acknowledged fact in the US.

Washinton's postal vote system has nothing to do with voter ID whatsoever.

I know that these rules don't apply in all states. I am proposing a solution to the problems you highlight. Telling me that the problems aren't happening despite them being implemented, and then going on to say that they are not implemented because the republicans don't want it, is nothing short is utterly stupid.

Trump ran on many things, and one of those things is voter ID. He clearly wants it, and states are trying to make it happen, but Obama appointed judges are stopping him, just as they stopped his immigration reform (until they got overruled by the supreme court).

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This right here is illegal. It is a poll tax and has been ruled unconstitutional. Oh and the rest of your tripe, is bullshit. Not all police stations are places you can get driver's licenses or ids.

A $1 one-time poll-tax... it won't break the bank of ANYONE. Come on, if they don't even have a dollar, then they're probably dead.

What the heck, make it free the first time until you lose it. Tax gone. Happy now?

[Blur4stuff]

It's well established that the voter ID efforts by republicans have nothing to do with the integrity of the vote. They have been repeatedly caught using it as a way to suppress votes for democrats. That is their goal.

Even if we were to all pretend that the voter ID efforts were pure, it still wouldn't explain why they cut polling stations in dem leaning areas specifically, reduce early voting, selectively remove early voting for Sundays, etc...

Any discussion with a republican on this issue that doesn't start with them admitting that their politicians are trying to suppress minority/dem votes is going to be a dishonest discussion not worth having.

[Orbitus]

A $1 one-time poll-tax... it won't break the bank of ANYONE. Come on, if they don't even have a dollar, then they're probably dead.

What the heck, make it free the first time until you lose it. Tax gone. Happy now?

It doesn't matter what you think, it is in our fucking constitution that you cannot charge to be able to vote. Its the 24th amendment to our constitution. I know you aren't American, but please know our constitution if you are trying to argue constitutional matters. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty...s_Constitution

And it isn't just this that makes these bullshit voter ID laws illegal. Removing other forms of ID that have worked in the past, removing voting places, and places to get IDs. That is all done by Republicans because they don't want poor Democrats to vote. Because they know they would lose their seats.