Is argus no flying?

[SirCowdog]

It doesn't matter what you say, that poster just is going to tell you what you can and can not enjoy in this game while trying to spin it as something else.

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but have fun arguing about this, im out.

That's fine. I've been in the trenches of this argument for long enough to know that my points often fall on deaf ears. But there's always a chance my points will get across one day, or that someone else reading will see what I'm saying. It's all good. The entire point of these forums is to discuss the game, even if we often disagree with each other.

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Can you tell me what content was made BETTER with flying? and how flying was USED to make that content better?
The issues with flying is it makes armies look small, it makes bases look weak, it allows you to skip interacting with most mobs, and it keeps people in the sky, instead of in the world.

Think of ice crown, remember how to get to the gates of icc you needed to wade through the armies of the lich king! the packs of ghouls, dragons of ice and bone, towering abom- oh wait you could just fly straight to the lich kings front gate without having to fight a single geist even...

Actually, I didn't do the content involving the ground assault on ICC until after I already had flying(I did Stormpeaks first). My first encounter with the Icecrown zone was flying in to land on the airship and conduct missions from there. It was followed up by tactical strike missions for the Ebon Blade, and assaults against the Scarlet Crusade mini-island off the coast. It was just as epic, and I enjoyed the hell out of it.

The entire zone of Stormpeaks used verticality and made flying feel very needed to get around. Being able to fly from plateau to cliffs, and into caves felt(to me at least) to be a very enjoyable experience where I could explore the tops of mountains and invade enemy strongholds that would otherwise be inaccessible. I guess they could have done the same thing with flight paths, but it would have felt a LOT more constrained and more on-rails.

[Aggrophobic]

flying was a reward for hitting max level when it came out, and no it hasn't been a staple of WoW - there are quite a few zones where you cannot fly and there are no problems. would flying make it easier? probably. but they have put in alternate modes of moving around the map so you don't need flying. flying is not needed in every area, you can get around fine on ground mounts.

You really can't though. Not on Argus anyhow. The zones are a pain in the ass.

[satimy]

Can you tell me what content was made BETTER with flying? and how flying was USED to make that content better?
The issues with flying is it makes armies look small, it makes bases look weak, it allows you to skip interacting with most mobs, and it keeps people in the sky, instead of in the world.

Think of ice crown, remember how to get to the gates of icc you needed to wade through the armies of the lich king! the packs of ghouls, dragons of ice and bone, towering abom- oh wait you could just fly straight to the lich kings front gate without having to fight a single geist even...

You could run there if you wanted to, it wasn't disabled. Now why would nobody do that.......

[Bullarkie]

"You're going to spend most of your time running through the zone and like it."

-Blizzard

[FelPlague]

That's fine. I've been in the trenches of this argument for long enough to know that my points often fall on deaf ears. But there's always a chance my points will get across one day, or that someone else reading will see what I'm saying. It's all good. The entire point of these forums is to discuss the game, even if we often disagree with each other.

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Actually, I didn't do the content involving the ground assault on ICC until after I already had flying(I did Stormpeaks first). My first encounter with the Icecrown zone was flying in to land on the airship and conduct missions from there. It was followed up by tactical strike missions for the Ebon Blade, and assaults against the Scarlet Crusade mini-island off the coast. It was just as epic, and I enjoyed the hell out of it.

The entire zone of Stormpeaks used verticality and made flying feel very needed to get around. Being able to fly from plateau to cliffs, and into caves felt(to me at least) to be a very enjoyable experience where I could explore the tops of mountains and invade enemy strongholds that would otherwise be inaccessible. I guess they could have done the same thing with flight paths, but it would have felt a LOT more constrained and more on-rails.

And how did flying make those better? could maybe lets say, you have been able to take flight paths to and frown the air ship be the same thing
also you dont adress the icc gates thing really... Idk if you know but there was little content down there, the point was of how epic it is to storm those gates, but then in reality you just fly over everything and you are there.

Could you have scaled those glyphs with grappeling hooks and harpoon launchers, ramps and flight paths, would that not have felt the same or better?

[Deleted]

its a shit content patch. i do the bare minimum and dont bother with anything else just like i did with Wod/Legion.

[Dastreus]

It's blizzard. It's the final zone in an expansion. Blizzard has a hard on for being lazy about zone designs... IE if you could fly you could see their shoddy work. I think you know the answer.

[Redroniksre]

No, they actually DON'T have to give the illusion of a massive planet. They could have actually created real zones. But it was quicker and easier to use skyboxes and false facades to create an illusion than giving a more detailed zone with greater depths. Yes, this would have taken a little bit longer, and wouldn't have as easily fit into their "faster content release schedule" pitch for Legion.


This comes down to a quality vs quantity issue. Full zones that take flying into account take more time to create. The zone and its encounters have to be more detailed in order to account for it. Zones which don't ever intend to use flying, or even allow it, can use a LOT of shortcuts in the design and presentation. Mostly this is acceptable for the people who are still playing WoW, because they've bought into the bullshit that it's better this way. I obviously don't agree with that point of view, but some people do, and many others can't pull the WoW IV from their arm. So Blizzard will keep doing it.

People keep heaping praise on Blizzard when they're actually taking the design of the open world BACKWARDS. And when someone points that out they're told, in so many words, to GTFO. What a joke that is! To cut right to the heart of your own words: "It doesn't matter what people want". You're basically saying that WHATEVER blizzard is doing is fine, because what the players want doesn't matter. Think about that for a second. I mean, really read and think.

Explain how you would create a massive planet, and be realistic, no "hire 2000 developers to make it with their infinite money!"

[FelPlague]

You could run there if you wanted to, it wasn't disabled. Now why would nobody do that.......

Players will take the path of least resistance by default, even if it is less fun, a major rule of game design, and something hard to avoid.
(Trying to find extra credits video on it...)
If you can do a fun adventure and get an item you need
or kill the same mob 100 times, getting the item in 1/10th the time but having MUCH less fun, the majority of players will choose to do the grind.

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No, they actually DON'T have to give the illusion of a massive planet. They could have actually created real zones. But it was quicker and easier to use skyboxes and false facades to create an illusion than giving a more detailed zone with greater depths. Yes, this would have taken a little bit longer, and wouldn't have as easily fit into their "faster content release schedule" pitch for Legion.


This comes down to a quality vs quantity issue. Full zones that take flying into account take more time to create. The zone and its encounters have to be more detailed in order to account for it. Zones which don't ever intend to use flying, or even allow it, can use a LOT of shortcuts in the design and presentation. Mostly this is acceptable for the people who are still playing WoW, because they've bought into the bullshit that it's better this way. I obviously don't agree with that point of view, but some people do, and many others can't pull the WoW IV from their arm. So Blizzard will keep doing it.

People keep heaping praise on Blizzard when they're actually taking the design of the open world BACKWARDS. And when someone points that out they're told, in so many words, to GTFO. What a joke that is! To cut right to the heart of your own words: "It doesn't matter what people want". You're basically saying that WHATEVER blizzard is doing is fine, because what the players want doesn't matter. Think about that for a second. I mean, really read and think.

Tell us how they could have created a whole new fucking planet, and not have us still be waiting another 8 months for 7.3, with a then 20 month wait for 8.0 after?

you cant just say "it would be easy if they just did it" no, no they would not, you have to remeber game devolpment takes alot of time, every day of work done can be done in minutes by players...

[Deleted]

Can you seriously just stop playing the fucking game if you don't like it?

I hate flying. They keep trying to put shit into the game to make travelling less of a thing while keeping flying out. I approve of it. Does it take a little longer? Sure.

But flying legitimately makes me care less about the game. I just fly over everything. While all you care about is not getting dazed, lel.

So dismount. You can ALWAYS use ground mounts even when you have flying unlocked. The reverse is never true. Can you only enjoy ground mounts when the rest of us are grounded with you? Surely if you HATE flying you'd only use it in the most dire circumstances, like getting to Tempest Keep, Ogri'la or the Netherwing island.

WoW is one of the very few games that does flying right. I don't mean the skills or unlocks - I mean the actual feeling of "holy shit I'm flying this is amazing". Every time I unlock flying through whatever hoop Blizzard added, it feels magical. The controls are fluid. The world is immense and the designs and animations of these flying mounts are stellar barring a few very outdated models. If flight makes content so trivial, make content harder or flight more of a danger. I'd be fine with having to dismount in felbat infested hellholes, to trek through a cave on foot to escape their murderous onslaught. I'm not fine with falling off a cliffside and having to roleplay a mountain goat when I'm just trying to unwind and enjoy some casual gameplay out in the world.

[Hctaz]

You do not need a ground mount either..

You're right. It's also a luxury item, but one that is on an entirely different level.

Ground mounts do not allow you to bypass certain elements of the game. Flying does. You can fly over mobs. You cannot run through them on a ground mount without some risk.

[Schizoide]

I'm not the slightest bit surprised that Argus is no-flying, but it's certainly annoying that they chose not to extend Pathfinder to the new outer world zones. Sigh.

[satimy]

Players will take the path of least resistance by default, even if it is less fun, a major rule of game design, and something hard to avoid.
(Trying to find extra credits video on it...)
If you can do a fun adventure and get an item you need
or kill the same mob 100 times, getting the item in 1/10th the time but having MUCH less fun, the majority of players will choose to do the grind.

Or maybe ground mounts are less fun

[Aggrophobic]

You're right. It's also a luxury item, but one that is on an entirely different level.

Ground mounts do not allow you to bypass certain elements of the game. Flying does. You can fly over mobs. You cannot run through them on a ground mount without some risk.

There is no riskt though. It takes time and it's annoying but you could pull every mob on Argus and still not die.

[-Joker-]

Fixed that.

Yeah, now it sounds a lot whinier. It is a game, and a game mechanic. If you hate WoW without your little dragon, maybe the new WoW is not for you.

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So ridiculous that you feel that you can tell someone what to enjoy.

Not at all. I am simply stating that the game is designed specifically to allow or disallow certain things. If flight is the ONLY thing that makes the game more enjoyable, you are obviously just here for the Dragons and not the content, so it should not matter where you ride your little Dragons. Go hover about in SW, and leave the enjoyable current content to those of us who are not bothered by the Dev's path choice for these zones.

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Why can't everyone enjoy it? Also, Wow is a game with flying... seems like those that like flying (in a game with flying) shouldn't have to find a new game to play. /shrug.

Or, they could just adjust to the fact that flight is only available in certain locations. Isles of Thunder, Isle of Giants, and the Timeless Isle are all still no fly zones, yet people are not squawking about those. Exodar and Silvermoon City are still no fly zones, but no one bitches about those. Instances (99% of them) have no flying, but no one bitches about those. So when it comes to new, current, relevant content, a lack of flight should not be a shock. It should be anticipated.

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But as a druid you can still run up in stag/cheetah, gather the thing and run off..

Yeah, and rogues can stealth in and vanish. DHs can glide in, double jump, and glide out. Mages can blink/shimmer in and out with invisibility. Every class has an advantage. Maybe more people should take time to learn their class and remember what it meant to be in ACTUAL danger, like we were in TBC without heirloom gear, etc. There was a time when being CLEVER in your class counted for something. Sadly, these days, everyone is a button mashing over geared bonebag who calls for a nerf the moment their Blood DK dies to two mobs in a zone. "Hey DK, learn your friggin role and move on through the zone."

[Hctaz]

There is no riskt though. It takes time and it's annoying but you could pull every mob on Argus and still not die.

I'm not talking about a risk of dying, I'm talking about the risk of engagement. When you're flying, there is zero risk of engagement while you're in the air. On a ground mount, you have to actually pay attention to where you're going. You have to avoid trash mobs on your way to your destination and you have to navigate territory. You can't just alt-tab with auto run on and expect to get to your location. You will probably fall into a pit and die.

There IS some risk to running on the ground. There is no risk to flying.

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Or maybe ground mounts are less fun

Ground mounts are "less fun" in a good way though. They make you pay attention to the game itself. What is actually less fun for me might be more fun for you I guess, but bypassing all of the content and auto-running while I alt tab or text my girlfriend is not more fun than actually having to pay attention to what I'm doing. This is a game. If you intend to play it, you should probably pay attention to it. I don't see you playing Sonic the Hedgehog and auto-running while you browse Reddit until you finish Act 1 and get to the boss. It's the same shit.

[Aggrophobic]

I'm not talking about a risk of dying, I'm talking about the risk of engagement. When you're flying, there is zero risk of engagement while you're in the air. On a ground mount, you have to actually pay attention to where you're going. You have to avoid trash mobs on your way to your destination and you have to navigate territory. You can't just alt-tab with auto run on and expect to get to your location. You will probably fall into a pit and die.

There IS some risk to running on the ground. There is no risk to flying

The only risk there is to rage-quit out of frustration.
Thats not good game design.

That is not the reason we can't fly though. Blizzard is just being lazy and cheap.

[Feeline10]

No flying zones are the worst thing ever

[Camthur]

Blizzard is pretty stupid for always doing the either/or system. Just go with option C. When you get there, you are clearly overwhelmed and would get curb-stomped if you tried to fly. As you progress in questing, gaining rep or whatever, you open up more areas where you can fly. This let's you fly in the boring areas once you're tired of/done with them and keeps you on the ground in areas you are still working on taming.

It's such a simple idea that you have to think Blizzard at least considered it at some point.

[Schizoide]

That's basically how Pathfinder works. And I agree, they should have an Argus Pathfinder achievement.