Testing 7.3 Frost dk

[hellhamster]

yeah that 8 hour reset is gonna stink.

the loot Gods are cruel indeed. they gave me Soul of Deathlord today turning in legionfall supplies... there goes my Frost plan. F#$%

Are you... me?

[Deleted]

I'm not a new poster or theorycrafter. I fully appreciate that it frees GCDs and while I haven't seen the sims yet, you're most likely correct that it's the best choice in an AE scenario. What I'm saying is that BoS shouldn't be the best AE talent because it doesn't scale past 2 targets. HRW should be the best AE talent in that tier. It isn't, which is a problem in both design and implementation.

Keep in mind the new 7.3. APL is a work in progress and not optimized for AE sims. I´ll just quote Melekus here:

# This APL isn't fully optimized, use at your own risk and feel free to compare it to the default APL, it may sim higher with a few talent combos. (If you see something wrong ping me @Melekus#2334 in Acherus). Optimized for Obliteration/BoS and ST only.

So siming AE with this APL is pretty much useless right now. And you are right, BoS shouldnt be the best talent for heavy aoe.

[Schizoide]

Level 100: Hungering Rune Weapon Icon Hungering Rune Weapon (single target) or Obliteration Icon Obliteration (AoE)

Wow, it would be trippy if this is actually correct. So cheaper Obliterates from Obliteration give more Rime procs and more buffed Howling Blasts for AE.

[Icedcoffeee]

Wow, it would be trippy if this is actually correct. So cheaper Obliterates from Obliteration give more Rime procs and more buffed Howling Blasts for AE.

Isn't the Icy Veins build using Obliteration and FSc for AoE?

[Deleted]

And you are right, BoS shouldnt be the best talent for heavy aoe.

The big advantage of BOS is free GCDs to make optimal use of Obliterate, Gathering Storm and Howling Blast.

BOS should be best at AOE because frost strike is sooooo bad for AOE. And HRW has 12 sec uptime in 3min... less than BOS.

What do you guys expect?

In single target, the difference isn't that big because Obliterate and Frost Strike difference isn't that huge. But during HRW, your RP will overcap so you will either waste runes, Rime procs or cap RP.

Why do you guys expect HRW to perform good?

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Wow, it would be trippy if this is actually correct. So cheaper Obliterates from Obliteration give more Rime procs and more buffed Howling Blasts for AE.

It is just wrong...

The current guides are pure bullshit.

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Isn't the Icy Veins build using Obliteration and FSc for AoE?

And what is the synergy between Obliteration and FSc???

There is none. For AOE i'd bet it's going to be FSc+BOS. But FSc is a single target dps loss. I don't like sacrificing single target dps.

[Icedcoffeee]

And what is the synergy between Obliteration and FSc???

Obliteration provides KM procs, which work with FSc. And since Rime procs Obliteration now too, you could continuously alternate between Rime and KM FSc (potentially). Seems quite strong for burst AoE.

[Deleted]

The big advantage of BOS is free GCDs to make optimal use of Obliterate, Gathering Storm and Howling Blast.

Yes, we understand how BoS works. The point was a talent which - according to your sims - is best for ST should not be best for cleave and AOE as well, because of reasons. I like BoS, dont get me wrong. But if they break all synergies in the tree to give more options it should not be BoS for every fight again


Melekus upated the spreadsheet recently, aoe sims are now available:

build for pure ST is 3210031
For AOE (sims were done with 4 targets) 3130012

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...ring&sle=true#

As it seems the aoe sims are without legendaries.

[Maxweii]

Remember that it saying it has 4 targets means it's 4 targets constantly spawned and being attacked. Which is a lot different than actual aoe where things spawn and die

[Schizoide]

I ran a bunch of sims in the 8/28 nightly with the T20H PTR profile and different talents. I did not optimize gear, relics, or legendaries or change the profile in any way other than the talents. As always in a new patch the sim may be completely utterly wrong. Based on these quick tests, my "default" frost spec will be 3210012. My conclusions:

Tier 1
- RA is ~4% better than SStrikes or Icy Talons. Always, always take RA, no matter what.
- Icy Talons isn't worth taking even with Frozen Pulse. FP nerf destroyed this synergy.

Tier 2
- HoW is ~2% ahead of ME, which is 2% ahead of FFog
- HoW is best overall, if you use it properly. Otherwise ME is a nice passive choice in both ST and AE/cleave. Good balance on these two talents by the devs.
- FFog should never be taken, ever. Just like the rest of the expansion! Such a waste.

Tier 6
- FPulse and GS are only worth ~1% DPS over FScythe on single-targets.
- On 4 targets, FsC beats GS by 2.8% and FPulse by a whopping 5.6%
- Basically, take FScythe.

Tier 7
- HRW actually wins by a solid 1% or 5% on single targets
- But BoS destroys by 5-10% on 4 targets
- This is a tier you will probably want to switch talents depending on the fight

T20H 2210022(BoS): 1018k
2210023(HRW): 1088k
2210021(Oblit): 1121k
0210022: 995k

1210022(SStrikes): 1020k
3210022(RA): 1060k ****

3210032(RA+GStorm+BoS): 1060k
3210022(RA+FPulse+BoS): 1062k

3210022(RA+ME): 1060k ****
3210022(RA+ME 4 targets): 2115k
3110022(RA+FFog): 1036k
3110022(RA+FFog 4targ): 2102k
3310022(RA+HoW): 1081k (+1.9%)
3310022(RA+HoW 4targets): 2160k

3210012 FsC: 1052k
3210012 FsC 4targ: 2236k +2.8%, +5.6%
3210032 GS: 1061k
3210032 GS 4targ: 2174k
3210022 FPulse 4target: 2114k

3210011(Oblit): 1091k (-1.2%)
3210011(Oblit 4 targ): 2089k (-7.5%)
3210012(BoS): 1052k
3210012(BoS 4t): 2245k
3210013(HRW): 1105k (+5.0%)
3210013(HRW 4t): 2041k (-10%!)

[jodowaet]

I'm more worried that the increased buff (up to 30% aura) is to compensate for our garbage scaling, which is probably worse now that our talent tree is breaking up our best synergies.

Happy to be wrong tho, I'd love for Frost to be top tier again.

[sunbrother]

Tried it out on mythic goroth. Looks like it still lags 10%+ behind UH.

[Deleted]

I ran a bunch of sims in the 8/28 nightly with the T20H PTR profile and different talents. I did not optimize gear, relics, or legendaries or change the profile in any way other than the talents. As always in a new patch the sim may be completely utterly wrong. Based on these quick tests, my "default" frost spec will be 3210012.

Which rotation/APL did you use ? The default one from simulationcraft or a custom one ?

[Piz813]

HRW did not live up to my vision... back to obliteration...
MG was fun but had to go UH to kill H KJ
I was IT and another guy was RA. We were neck and neck all night trading places who did slightly more damage each boss.

Give it a week or less to see some data on what builds work best now

[MakeMeLaugh]

It looks like frost scythe is better than obliterate for single target when KM is up. Deals a slightly less damage but costs only 1 run, and I tested it with the obliterate belt(10% more damage to obliterate).

Am I missing something? Is frost scythe actually better than obliterate when KM is up for single target?

[pkm]

It looks like frost scythe is better than obliterate for single target when KM is up. Deals a slightly less damage but costs only 1 run, and I tested it with the obliterate belt(10% more damage to obliterate).

Am I missing something? Is frost scythe actually better than obliterate when KM is up for single target?

The problem I think is trying to not accidentally spend km on obliterate. It kinda slows down the play style a bit which is not good for hrw builds.

[Clash the DK]

It looks like frost scythe is better than obliterate for single target when KM is up. Deals a slightly less damage but costs only 1 run, and I tested it with the obliterate belt(10% more damage to obliterate).

Am I missing something? Is frost scythe actually better than obliterate when KM is up for single target?

You are correct.

[boz0]

Tier 6
- FPulse and GS are only worth ~1% DPS over FScythe on single-targets.
- On 4 targets, FsC beats GS by 2.8% and FPulse by a whopping 5.6%
- Basically, take FScythe.

Thanks for sharing your results.

Since FsC is now back in the race, does it mean Soul of the Deathlord becomes a viable legendary choice for those who don't have chest/wrists/belt?

[Deleted]

I also did some sims and race matters a lot in the lvl 100 talent row. Blood Elf (i am BE) had BOS>Obliteration, Troll had Obliteration > BOS. Also having high mastery / low haste clearly favors BOS.

So my gear+BloodElf Racial make BOS work out on single target. I gotta try the other options, i was focusing too much on 33300xx.

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Thanks for sharing your results.

Since FsC is now back in the race, does it mean Soul of the Deathlord becomes a viable legendary choice for those who don't have chest/wrists/belt?

Well taking FSc is nearly no dps gain on single target. So it only works on AOE.

For ST i'd say (without tests) that Prydaz/Boots/Legs/SoN should be ahead. For cleave/AOE it might work out.

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Remember that it saying it has 4 targets means it's 4 targets constantly spawned and being attacked. Which is a lot different than actual aoe where things spawn and die

And that is an issue. Gathering Storm can be quite strong for short burst. FSc might sim strong, but it might be misleading cause it is less bursty. The reduced rune costs make you overcap ressources easily bevause you constantly FSc/HB. Gotta do some ingame tests to see how it works out.

[Deleted]

Yeah, value of haste can go up quite a bit if you take OB instead of BoS. Im super low on haste right now (10%) and for me haste is the worst stat when siming BoS and the best stat when siming OB ^.^

But even with low haste and high mastery (im BE too) OB sims better for ST than BoS for me. I simed 3210031 vs 3330022 and 3330032.

Looking Forward to the raid tonight to finally test it.

[Deleted]

Yeah, value of haste can go up quite a bit if you take OB instead of BoS. Im super low on haste right now (10%) and for me haste is the worst stat when siming BoS and the best stat when siming OB ^.^

But even with low haste and high mastery (im BE too) OB sims better for ST than BoS for me. I simed 3210031 vs 3330022 and 3330032.

Looking Forward to the raid tonight to finally test it.

And how much higher?

Additionally: there are only 2 pure single target fights in TOS. On DI you tank both bosses together at pull, Harjatan has adds, you can cleave on Host and Mistress, Sisters have moontalon, FA has the maid you can cleave (or you can cleave boss while focussing maid) and KJ has several add phases.

So you have Goroth and Maid left. BOS has extremely high burst (highest of all lvl 100 talents) so BOS might be strongest for Maid. Well... then you have Goroth left.

Simc shows BOS pulling ahead whenever there are additional targets - and if Ob is 10k better at single target, but 200k behind on cleave. I see a clear winner.