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  1. #361
    The Lightbringer Nurvus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scubistacy View Post
    How comes that in earlier expansions the devs were able to design zones which have been perfectly fine with flying, and stopped at some point - although they had already figured out how to design quest hubs, so the distance between quest hubs would not have been a problem.
    They didn't.
    Things were new back then. Flying was new.
    Flying didn't really start showing its teeth until late WotLK.

    Flying in Northrend was locked behind a reasonably okay mechanic - Cold Weather flying - and you would get it reasonably fast (68).

    Now everyone is used to flying or getting flying as soon as they reach max level, so when Blizzard changed that and gated flying behind content/rep/patches, the cravings began.
    Last edited by Nurvus; 2017-08-30 at 03:11 PM.
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  2. #362
    Quote Originally Posted by Nurvus View Post
    They didn't.
    Things were new back then. Flying was new.
    Flying didn't really start showing its teeth until late WotLK.

    Flying in Northrend was locked behind a reasonably okay mechanic - Cold Weather flying - and you would get it reasonably fast (68).

    Now everyone is used to flying or getting flying as soon as they reach max level, so when Blizzard changed that and gated flying behind content/rep/patches, the cravings began.
    Yeah it was literally like you stole the kids cookiez. Yes I know that flying is comfortable, but it reduces your daily investment to WoW to 10-15 minutes, and it really reduces the perceived size of zones. Which in my mind is one of the biggest reasons for immersion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TOM_RUS View Post
    Argus is a worst zone ever created by Blizzard. It takes ages to navigate. It is filled with tons of elites. You get dazed, dazed, dazed... Random one shots when running around the zone. Overtuned mobs that you can't one shot even with 940+ ilvl... How about you, fucking Blizzard, try this shit yourself first? This is unplayable without flying.


    This is exactly my feelings about Argus.
    This is what they wanted after all, it's the goddamn headquarters of the Legion and Sargeras himself, it would destroy the whole immersion of the threat if you can just hop on your mount and whenever you feel like it jump down and roflcopter some lowlvl mobs away... That's also the reason why they made some special threats on Argus, you are supposed to feel like some little insignificant being there. It felt great to finally step into some area and get 1 shot by some mob, and give it a second thought where I can go solo, and where I'd better group up. Haven't had that feeling for a long time.

  3. #363
    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodwolf View Post
    This is what they wanted after all, it's the goddamn headquarters of the Legion and Sargeras himself, it would destroy the whole immersion of the threat if you can just hop on your mount and whenever you feel like it jump down and roflcopter some lowlvl mobs away... That's also the reason why they made some special threats on Argus, you are supposed to feel like some little insignificant being there. It felt great to finally step into some area and get 1 shot by some mob, and give it a second thought where I can go solo, and where I'd better group up. Haven't had that feeling for a long time.
    Not sure about you, but that kind of stupid design makes me want to just cancel subscription, uninstall all blizzard games and never ever have any deals with this fucking ignorant company called Blizzard. They ruined WoW with Legion expansion.

    Sorry, can't waste hours just to get to that world quest on other end of the zone.

    Hell, I've spent half an hour just to find how the fuck to get back on fucking Vindicar. Fuck this shit.
    Last edited by TOM_RUS; 2017-08-30 at 03:59 PM.

  4. #364
    The Lightbringer Nurvus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TOM_RUS View Post
    Argus is a worst zone ever created by Blizzard. It takes ages to navigate. It is filled with tons of elites. You get dazed, dazed, dazed... Random one shots when running around the zone. Overtuned mobs that you can't one shot even with 940+ ilvl... How about you, fucking Blizzard, try this shit yourself first? This is unplayable without flying.
    Really?
    The zone that SHOULD be the most dangerous, oppressive zone in the game, should just be something you whistle by effortlessly?
    You didn't play Vanilla, did you?
    There used to be Elites all over the world.
    It used to be fun trying to kill them (and when you succeeded you'd get almost a loot piñata).

    I have to say, though.
    I prefer the elite/rare design from Timeless Isle the most - dangerous but counterable with skillful play.
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  5. #365
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stellan View Post
    Considering how ugly Argus is ( a rehash of Legionfall), Argus should be fly over so we don't have to spend much time there.
    Off topic: Ugly was being handed Stormshield as a "Capital city" instead of Karabor.

    On topic: It is a DEMON world. It is supposed to be ugly. I've yet to meet a single RPer who made their home in Silithus. The purpose of Argus is not to fly over it and appreciate it's majestic beauty. It is meant to be more like the Isle of Thunder, loaded with ugly NPCs and a horrible environment making it less than ideal to hang around. People need to start seeing Argus as the new Timeless Isle. A few days of content and no flight.

  6. #366
    Quote Originally Posted by Lahis View Post
    Speedrunning is valid way to challenge yourself, but it's not what developers intended when building the game.

    If you glitch out of bounds to skip content, it is clearly not meant to happen.

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    Everyone who ever said that using a ground mount on a flight enabled area is a choice.

    If one way to do things is much easier than the other, it is the only logical option.
    Given that the game itself is a LEISURE activity and done by choice, then the "logical" option is to travel the way that you enjoy. If as you purport, it is so much fun to spend more time travelling around on the ground because you have to "think" about dodging trash then that is exactly what you should do and what would not be logical is doing it some other way.

    What you are really saying is that you see some "virtue" or moral issue in not spending as much time as possible while playing a video game doing the mindless chore of killing X% extra trash and spending X% extra time negotiating terrain to get to an actual gameplay element (quest/rare/whatever). So you are basically telling everyone that they have to play the game your way because of some false value you assign to ground travel. The game is not about ground travel and what is illogical is worshipping "the world" to such an extent that you would adopt what i consider to be the flagrantly immoral view that it is okay for people's time to be wasted on the game at it's lowest level so that Blizzard can make less content last longer, which is the real reason they removed flying and concocted the giant time gated timesink of pathfinder.

  7. #367
    after completing this weeks argus part i can safely tell is feels like utter garbage due to lack of flying - any sort of fun has been imidately killed by not being able to fly though complete shit terrain it has.

    compared to broken shore after flying was enabled its just pure garbage.

    so much potential and resources wasted because of retarded no fly politics

    people will avoid the f.. of that place.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nurvus View Post
    The zone that SHOULD be the most dangerous, oppressive zone in the game, should just be something you whistle by effortlessly?
    .
    sorry to dissapoint you but you still whistle though it effortlessly - it jsut take retarded amount of time to run around all mountains briges etc. mobs may have 4-16 mln health but they hit like wet noodles and you just ignore all of them between point A and B .

    the lack of flying has no justification there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    What you're describing is what makes open-world PVE actually interesting. Without flight you have to examine your surroundings, figure out the most efficient way to tackle the quest then try to implement it by killing/dodging mobs as applicable whilst you complete your objective.
    its nice theory but reality is you just look at minimap which shows you which patch to follow around few mountains and then 5 minutes later after cursing at all time you wasted you get to place be after ignoring literaly every single mob around the way including huge reaver becaue he hits for barely 2 mln and dont even dismount you and when you get on place you kill rare mob in 15 second in group and then have to spend another 5 minutes geting to point C all the time cursing about time you are wasting on stupid runing.

    thats how it ended up.

    there is no danger

    there is no finding way

    there is just simple waste of time on runing around.

    Argus will be remebers as as shit as Broken shore and only difference is you do 5 quests a week instead 1 quest a week like in there

    absolutely obnoxius and terrible piece of garbage pseudo content.

    feel sorry for art team because as always they are the only that did their job good while devs have wasted all their efforts.
    Last edited by kamuimac; 2017-08-30 at 06:37 PM.

  8. #368
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    its nice theory but reality is you just look at minimap which shows you which patch to follow around few mountains and then 5 minutes later after cursing at all time you wasted you get to place be after ignoring literaly every single mob around the way including huge reaver becaue he hits for barely 2 mln and dont even dismount you and when you get on place you kill rare mob in 15 second in group and then have to spend another 5 minutes geting to point C all the time cursing about time you are wasting on stupid runing.
    Gratz to you on being utterly amazing then, but this thread (and others on the same subject) is full of people complaining about how it's incredibly difficult to navigate by the map, impossible to get anywhere without becoming stuck on rocks or in trees, and how the mobs will dismount-daze you as soon as they look at you

  9. #369
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    What you're describing is what makes open-world PVE actually interesting. Without flight you have to examine your surroundings, figure out the most efficient way to tackle the quest then try to implement it by killing/dodging mobs as applicable whilst you complete your objective. Allowing you to simply bunny-hop between the most efficient objectives takes away any impact of the environment and level design. It takes the gameplay of "push button to make dead" and adds an element of simple environmental "puzzle" (for want of a better word.) Without it you might as well just mash buttons at a target dummy.

    Exactly, and with or without flying the devs will have some idea of how big a checklist they want the average player to complete in a certain time. If they had flight in the game they could lower the rewards or increase the number of things you need to do so that the reward/time ratio is the same and still not worth your time/money. That's what happened to me during MoP so I played other games until WoW got back to a state I enjoy.

    The "pointless" obstacles are just as much a part of the game as the targets you have for your quest. However by making them optional Blizz adds variety, and it's something that takes into account your class/spec/role. Rogues might want to stealth through, Hunters might rush in and Feign Death, Tanky characters can charge through on their mount and kill everything, squishier character might want to slink around the side and snipe the occasional threat.
    This are nice and right things, but...only for solo RPG. MMOs are about replayability. I.e., yeah, it's interesting to deal with terrain and mobs, when I do it for the first time in my life. But how about doing the same thing for hundreds of times? Thousands? You know, I've been playing Tanaan Jungle for 2 years. I've completed it on 17 characters. How have I managed not to die in boredom and tedium? Answer is pretty simple - FLYING. And how about no flying? I bought Legion just a few days ago. Yeah, first it was interesting (except some parts of Azsuna), but now I'm already starting to feel the need to have flying. Simple idea is constantly coming to my mind - it would be really nice, if flying would be granted just for completing Loremaster. Cuz several weeks of no flying... I don't know, if I will be able to endure all this crap.

    I don't care about Wow 11.0, if it's not solo-MMO. No half-measures - just perfect xpack.

  10. #370
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    Gratz to you on being utterly amazing then, but this thread (and others on the same subject) is full of people complaining about how it's incredibly difficult to navigate by the map, impossible to get anywhere without becoming stuck on rocks or in trees, and how the mobs will dismount-daze you as soon as they look at you
    i would assume they use default map which they cant scale as they wish to see better ? default one is utter shit indeed to use so im not surprised they see it this way.

    this doesnt change the fact that the layout of argus is utter annyence - seems like 1 dev responsible for it did it with the thought " hey how do i screw with the so they feel like being constantly kicked in the nuts when they waste time runing around like idiots because god forbid i put straight paths between points of interest"
    Last edited by kamuimac; 2017-08-30 at 07:27 PM.

  11. #371
    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    This are nice and right things, but...only for solo RPG. MMOs are about replayability. I.e., yeah, it's interesting to deal with terrain and mobs, when I do it for the first time in my life. But how about doing the same thing for hundreds of times? Thousands? You know, I've been playing Tanaan Jungle for 2 years. I've completed it on 17 characters. How have I managed not to die in boredom and tedium? Answer is pretty simple - FLYING. And how about no flying? I bought Legion just a few days ago. Yeah, first it was interesting (except some parts of Azsuna), but now I'm already starting to feel the need to have flying. Simple idea is constantly coming to my mind - it would be really nice, if flying would be granted just for completing Loremaster. Cuz several weeks of no flying... I don't know, if I will be able to endure all this crap.
    I think there's something very different about the way you approach games compared to the rest (most) of WoW's players; you're getting to the end of your patience after several weeks, but if the game is put in easy mode it can entertain you for 2 whole years with just 1 zone?

    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    i would assume they use default map which they cant scale as they wish to see better ? default one is utter shit indeed to use so im not surprised they see it this way.

    this doesnt change the fact that the layout of argus is utter annyence - seems like 1 dev responsible for it did it with the thought " hey how do i screw with the so they feel like being constantly kicked in the nuts when they waste time runing around like idiots because god forbid i put straight paths between points of interest"
    If I played a game that gave me a sensation anything like being kicked in the nuts I would have quit it shortly afterwards. BTW how come you're running around feeling like an idiot when you have super-awesome navigation skills?

  12. #372
    Quote Originally Posted by Lahis View Post
    And this is exactly what we have now, yet you are against no flying on Argus...
    Wut? hahahah! Wow...the cognitive dissonance here is amazing! Are you serious? What zones in all of WoD or Legion are actually using flight to enhance the gameplay instead of ignore it? Go ahead, I'll wait. This'll be good.

  13. #373
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Wut? hahahah! Wow...the cognitive dissonance here is amazing! Are you serious? What zones in all of WoD or Legion are actually using flight to enhance the gameplay instead of ignore it? Go ahead, I'll wait. This'll be good.
    Talk to WowIsDead64 about that, they're a massive fan of Tanaan with flight.

  14. #374
    Quote Originally Posted by Lahis View Post
    Everyone who ever said that using a ground mount on a flight enabled area is a choice.

    If one way to do things is much easier than the other, it is the only logical option.
    No, that is YOUR assumption. I really REALLY don't want to go to the personal level, but I literally explained why people keep saying you have the option to CHOOSE to use a non-flying mount, and you just ignore it to go on spouting the same tired, false, weak assumption.

    People are telling you that you should use your ground mount because you have the OPTION to. It's meant to point out not only that you have a choice when flying players don't, but also to illustrate the falsehood that ground-only is supposedly so much better than anything else. If the ground design was so fucking amazing in the first place, then people like you wouldn't automatically assume that flying is instantly and immediately the way to go WHENEVER it's an option.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    Talk to WowIsDead64 about that, they're a massive fan of Tanaan with flight.
    Tanaan with flight IS more enjoyable. But Tanaan wasn't originally designed to USE flying. There's a difference. But I'll grant the technicality of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hctaz View Post
    That was the worst and most forgettable zone in the entire expansion.
    You continue to drag your credibility through the mud.
    Last edited by SirCowdog; 2017-08-30 at 08:21 PM.

  15. #375
    Over 9000! Lahis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Wut? hahahah! Wow...the cognitive dissonance here is amazing! Are you serious? What zones in all of WoD or Legion are actually using flight to enhance the gameplay instead of ignore it? Go ahead, I'll wait. This'll be good.
    Well how the fuck would you do that? You shot down my idea of having flying obstacles, all that is left is using flyign to bypass what is on the ground, there is no way could enhance the zones from ground only game.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    No, that is YOUR assumption. I really REALLY don't want to go to the personal level, but I literally explained why people keep saying you have the option to CHOOSE to use a non-flying mount, and you just ignore it to go on spouting the same tired, false, weak assumption.

    People are telling you that you should use your ground mount because you have the OPTION to. It's meant to point out not only that you have a choice when flying players don't, but also to illustrate the falsehood that ground-only is supposedly so much better than anything else. If the ground design was so fucking amazing in the first place, then people like you wouldn't automatically assume that flying is instantly and immediately the way to go WHENEVER it's an option.
    This is game of min-maxing. Using flyign mount is MORE EFFICIENT AND FASTER. It makes no sense to use the non-optimal thign when flying is available.

  16. #376
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Tanaan with flight IS more enjoyable. But Tanaan wasn't originally designed to USE flying. There's a difference. One that I really shouldn't need to explain.
    So? Flying in Tanaan lets you avoid "pointless" mobs and ignore "annoying" terrain so you can whizz through the content without "wasting" time interacting with things that don't give you a shiny reward as a pat on the head, isn't that what flight has been offering in previous expansion? And now you can fly in the Broken Isles and Broken Shore or stay grounded on Argus, isn't that what you consider a good mix?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lahis View Post
    This is game of min-maxing. Using flyign mount is MORE EFFICIENT AND FASTER. It makes no sense to use the non-optimal thign when flying is available.
    Also if flying is available Blizz would balance around that (as players will always gravitate towards the quickest/easiest methods) so using a ground mount would put you well behind whatever reward curve they figure out. Also there's the idea of opportunity cost, completing stuff on the ground becomes less satisfying if you know you could be doing twice as much stuff using a flying mount.

  17. #377
    Deleted
    No you can fly in Argus, I did earlier when I tried to take on the "Felreaver".

  18. #378
    Quote Originally Posted by Nurvus View Post
    Pretending like Ground and Flying Mounts - as they currently function - are both relevant (as in not gimping yourself) in the content where flying is enabled is simply delusional.
    Yes! I absolutely agree that the core mechanics of flying could improve. I've avoided mentioning it in this thread because I went over it so heavily in the main flying threads earlier in the year. The scope of this thread hasn't gone there yet, but I'd be happy to discuss it further. However, right now we're still at the point of the argument of simply proving that flying isn't the devil of everything bad everywhere.


    Quote Originally Posted by Nurvus View Post
    It's the same thing with specs and builds.
    I want my favorite build/spec to be competitive.
    I can still enjoy other specs and builds, sure, but I'd prefer to not feel gimped for playing my favorite build.
    I'm not asking for a 0.1% margin, but not by 20% margin either.
    It is and it isn't the same with specs and builds. Many people play sub-optimal builds or non-fotm classes because it's what they enjoy. There also gear and RNG factored into how well a class or spec performs, and group dynamic. How well a tank performs in a raid is much different than how a tank performs while soloing, right? A ground mount can sometimes be used in places a flying mount can't, and sometimes there are entire zones(no-fly islands, dungeons, or raids) where flying mounts are disallowed as well. There are also zones where flying makes the content more enjoyable, such as Icecrown.

    Again, the problem arises only when Blizzard attempts to apply the same formula and experience to all aspects of the game. In a lot of ways it would be like taking away the open world entirely, and making everything an instance. Would that go over well?


    Quote Originally Posted by Nurvus View Post
    Likewise, I dislike when content pretends like Flying and Ground Travel are both relevant. They never are - not the way mounts function right now.

    Can it be made fair? Absolutely! And it can be done exclusively using mechanics already existant in the game.
    Hmm...I mostly agree, but I agree there are ways to use existing mechanics to create situations where a ground mount might be preferable to an air mount, while having them both available. An example off the top of my head: Ogri'La. The fel turrets only shoot at flying players, making it more hazardous to be in the air. A ground mount also has to dodge aggro from enemies on the ground, but the core idea is there.

    But I think you're right that it can be done better, and this is what I mean when I personally say that Blizzard is being lazy with the ground-only design. They're going out of their way to avoid addressing the flight issue. Instead they're going back to a ground-only content design formula that has its roots in vanilla, with false fronts and the illusion of zone depth rather than actually having depth.
    Last edited by SirCowdog; 2017-08-30 at 08:19 PM.

  19. #379
    How is it "being lazy" by designed an entire zone to be navigated by ground, yet "creative" to just stick turrets in that shoot at you while you fly?

  20. #380
    Quote Originally Posted by Lahis View Post
    You shot down my idea of having flying obstacles
    When did I do that? I apologize if I missed that point(because it's a valid one) in the flurry of all the other ridiculousness. Creating credible threats and obstacles for flying players is a cornerstone of making zones which use flying instead of ignoring it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lahis View Post
    This is game of min-maxing. Using flyign mount is MORE EFFICIENT AND FASTER. It makes no sense to use the non-optimal thign when flying is available.

    Do you really not see the fallacy of this? Defending the grounded experience but immediately going to flight the second it's available, even when the supposed superior experience of the ground is still there? People keep saying they don't want flying to ruin the experience, but they're the ones who are choosing to ruin it for themselves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    How is it "being lazy" by designed an entire zone to be navigated by ground, yet "creative" to just stick turrets in that shoot at you while you fly?
    Straw man. You're basing your question off the flawed assumption that the design using flying mounts would automatically be one dimensional and overly simplistic.
    Last edited by SirCowdog; 2017-08-30 at 08:39 PM.

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