7.3 ToS Mythic Changes

[Cistara]

Good point, though how often does that get triggered prematurely?

Things that would trigger it would be

beam soaking (which if you're solo soaking touches you shouldn't be doing).
Ruptured Realities (Fel Rush/Vengeful Out, shouldn't do more than 50% HP)
Unbound Chaos (Don't be dumb and you shouldn't get clipped)

I don't think it'd ever be an issue.

[Dracodraco]

Things that would trigger it would be

beam soaking (which if you're solo soaking touches you shouldn't be doing).
Ruptured Realities (Fel Rush/Vengeful Out, shouldn't do more than 50% HP)
Unbound Chaos (Don't be dumb and you shouldn't get clipped)

I don't think it'd ever be an issue.

Echoing this. Zero damage in P1 is "unpredictable" apart from daggers - and even then, getting hit by more than 1 unless you're targetted (and thus, topped) is bad play. As a hunter doing beam, I've often had no issues going to 30% HP, getting 9 stacks of the debuff, and just telling the healers "I'm good, don't waste mana on me" till my debuff drops off, because there's two sources of damage that I can take:
1: Rupture reality (turtle it, so 0).
2: Unbound chaos (which does ~25% of my HP).

I'm fully comfortable sitting at 10% hp for a while, really. That's the only "good" thing I liked about this shitty boss; You were in total control of how well you lived in P1. That they take it all away in P2 with Meteor+Tornado overlaps is just super disappointing.

Also, boss is now back to -5% hp (with the 1x touch removed still). This makes the boss easily 5 healable, which solves a lot of the issues (people dying due to RNG; More healing power can solve almost all "RNG" deaths, even in P2), but Dark marks are still utterly unbalanced.

[Fleckens]

Echoing this. Zero damage in P1 is "unpredictable" apart from daggers - and even then, getting hit by more than 1 unless you're targetted (and thus, topped) is bad play. As a hunter doing beam, I've often had no issues going to 30% HP, getting 9 stacks of the debuff, and just telling the healers "I'm good, don't waste mana on me" till my debuff drops off, because there's two sources of damage that I can take:
1: Rupture reality (turtle it, so 0).
2: Unbound chaos (which does ~25% of my HP).

I'm fully comfortable sitting at 10% hp for a while, really. That's the only "good" thing I liked about this shitty boss; You were in total control of how well you lived in P1. That they take it all away in P2 with Meteor+Tornado overlaps is just super disappointing.

Also, boss is now back to -5% hp (with the 1x touch removed still). This makes the boss easily 5 healable, which solves a lot of the issues (people dying due to RNG; More healing power can solve almost all "RNG" deaths, even in P2), but Dark marks are still utterly unbalanced.

Don't you have to save turtle to soak, or you lucky enough to have enough rogues? But yeah you're definitely right about the damage on the fight being very much predictable.

It's good to see some nerfs to avatar, although I'm kinda suprised that kj haven't gotten any, my guild had some roster issues so our setup is pretty fucked for it and the progressing on it is probably the least fun I've had all of legion while I mostly enjoyed our avatar progressing(of course this is probably also partically do the class I play, shadowpriest is amazing at avatar and just frustrating at kj).

[Dracodraco]

Don't you have to save turtle to soak, or you lucky enough to have enough rogues? But yeah you're definitely right about the damage on the fight being very much predictable.

It's good to see some nerfs to avatar, although I'm kinda suprised that kj haven't gotten any, my guild had some roster issues so our setup is pretty fucked for it and the progressing on it is probably the least fun I've had all of legion while I mostly enjoyed our avatar progressing(of course this is probably also partically do the class I play, shadowpriest is amazing at avatar and just frustrating at kj).

Just need immunities ready for second marks onwards in p2. There's a ton of classes that can solo soak touch, so p1 it's a non issue to use immunities.

(To clarify, I know for a fact that dks, rogues, dhs, resto druid and resto shaman can solo every touch. Think I've seen a mw do it as well but I don't know anything about their defensive skills ) . Rogues are only needed to cut down on p2 rng now. Nothing else.

[Squishei]

Now patiently (not-patiently) awaiting a KJ nerf.

[Fleckens]

Just need immunities ready for second marks onwards in p2. There's a ton of classes that can solo soak touch, so p1 it's a non issue to use immunities.

(To clarify, I know for a fact that dks, rogues, dhs, resto druid and resto shaman can solo every touch. Think I've seen a mw do it as well but I don't know anything about their defensive skills ) . Rogues are only needed to cut down on p2 rng now. Nothing else.

Hmm didn't know dk's or resto druids could do it(not that we had any) and don't see how resto shamans can do it outside of like ankh totem. I think what we mostly used was 1-2 rogues, one of the tanks and then rest were taking by rotating hunters and mages, and for marks in last phase I think first set(well second, first is easy to normally soak) was rogues, then mages and lastly I think we had our third mage and tank to do it.

[Frozendekay]

I honestly don't understand nerfing his hp by 5%, the dps check is already a complete joke (I think on our best pull he would have pushed at 21% or so, was 24% on kill) and crucible is like an instant 7-10% dps increase (2x tier 2 + 15ilvl on weapon). You'll be able to 5 heal, push before 4th shield and still have him at 20%. Seems a bit overkill.

[Argorwal]

I honestly don't understand nerfing his hp by 5%, the dps check is already a complete joke (I think on our best pull he would have pushed at 21% or so, was 24% on kill) and crucible is like an instant 7-10% dps increase (2x tier 2 + 15ilvl on weapon). You'll be able to 5 heal, push before 4th shield and still have him at 20%. Seems a bit overkill.

Well, it is over 2 months after it came out...

[Frozendekay]

Well, it is over 2 months after it came out...

Yea, I just don't understand targeting his hp when crucible will already shit all over the dps check. If they wanted to make it decently easier, nerf shield hp by 5-10% and make tornadoes not pass over soaks.

[Dracodraco]

Hmm didn't know dk's or resto druids could do it(not that we had any) and don't see how resto shamans can do it outside of like ankh totem. I think what we mostly used was 1-2 rogues, one of the tanks and then rest were taking by rotating hunters and mages, and for marks in last phase I think first set(well second, first is easy to normally soak) was rogues, then mages and lastly I think we had our third mage and tank to do it.

DKs can do it due to -20% area damage from traits, 24% bigger AMS from traits and further enhanced by Spell eater - our DK got hit for 6.66M every touch, with a 2.7M Absorb each time, letting him live with about 15-20% HP (AKA what I call comfortable).

You can see Maevycakes doing it here as a resto shaman, using a combo of Astral shift for 3 out of 5, and the Ghost wolf damage reduction (stacks 4% dmg reduc every second for 6 seconds, touches last 6 seconds, so ghostwolf as they go out for max reduction):
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...39058&source=3

And their monk Dhaubbs:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...9058&source=29

Through alternating his two 1.5 minute cooldowns.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...9058&source=15 Here's a boomkin doing it with Barkskin, Bear form, and the 6% damage reduction from Thick Hide - the exact same combo a resto druid would use. Bonus, they get to heal most of that damage pretty much instantly through Frenzied regen.

So yea, the whole "touches need rogues to soak hurrdurr" is a meme at this point; I'm genuinely surprised that after +100 kills, it isn't more common knowledge that tons of classes can "solo soak". Rogues are just the most "efficient" because they take the least damage, and IF they fuck up, they have cheat death which saves a wipe.

Yea, I just don't understand targeting his hp when crucible will already shit all over the dps check. If they wanted to make it decently easier, nerf shield hp by 5-10% and make tornadoes not pass over soaks.

It's probably also a matter of your comp; You mention nerfing the shield to make it "decently easy", but despite us only *just* getting avatar to like 29% on our first kill yesterday, we literally never had any issues on the shield so long as people actually hit it - mainly because we used 2x warriors who are fairly low for P1, but absolutely destroy the shield, and like 3x rogue alts to cheese P2. A shield nerf would do literally nothing to make it easier for us, but a 5% HP nerf means adding a disc to the healers for stability will make rekills a lot smoother etc. (Note: Our kill was in the "bugged" state of 6.8B HP, 4 touches, so it'd obviously be a lot lower if we'd had the 350M HP shaven off).

Fully agree that where it needs to be hit mainly is on RNG though; Tornados+meteors and Dark marks are just dumb mechanics, punishing you for not having an immunity. The last time I can think of that was this bad, was Lei Shen; I vividly recall setting up a raid with 18x immunities for Intermission static shocks (and P3), and then you could bring 7x classes WITHOUT an immunity for the last platform. Of course, 4 of those slots were already filled -

You needed 2x DKs for grips.
Disc was overpowered as fuck even back then.
And the fourth was your resto shaman.

Last 3 spots to share between Warriors, further DKs, Shamans, and I *think* warlocks (not sure how good their CD was back then. Druids had symbiosis so they all had immunities). Of course, back then, a lot more classes had immunities, and it WAS possible to soak static shocks (just really intense for the healer - which is why you placed 2 healers on the non-immunity platform, worked out super well that you usually had 2 healers without immunities) unlike the clusterfuck that is dark marks, so Lei Shen was praised as a great fight. Now you're just SOL unless you're a mage, hunter, rogue, or a wheelchair ret that somehow snuck their way into the raid. Shoutout to DKs/Priests/Warlocks who *can* solo using externals + their own personal, I guess.

This is pretty much the same thing. We realised we had 1x less touch to soak, and our immidiate instinct was - "Wait, can we sit our DK and get another immunity in for P2 instead then?". Of course, we realised that our only remaining immunity on the bench was a undergeared rogue, and DPS was already fairly tight as-is with 3x rogue alts.

[Deleted]

I am curious what they want to nerf with KJ mythic, seeing how shaving of HP wont really nerf him.

[Dracodraco]

I am curious what they want to nerf with KJ mythic, seeing how shaving of HP wont really nerf him.

Shaving off HP is almost always a good go-to universal nerf. It's lazy as fuck, but it allows you to do stuff that makes the encounter easier. Example could be, for KJ, if HP is nerfed, you might be more likely to bring a third tank (as some guilds already do) to perma-soak the big armageddons/bring an extra roar/plant the P3 obelisk marker etc etc; It's already possible to do, but shaving 5% HP off would ensure that doing 3 tanks basically nets you the same results as 2 would have done before. While not effectively nerfing the "bad" parts (Armageddon's) directly, allowing for a comp that's more "varied" so you CAN counter the ability, is an indirect way to do it.

Same goes for avatar; The worst part about the fight right now is the healing requirement in P2 if you want to soak dark marks, or immunities if not (and the tornados being able to fuck you while soaking a meteor). Adding a fifth healer would help both of those, both by providing higher overall throughput, more healing to snap-react to emergencies such as tornados, and more cooldowns to use on dark marks if needed.
If you go the immunity route, it allows you to take a lesser geared character or worse player with an immunity, over someone without, because DPS is less of an issue.

[Deleted]

I certainly agree, shaving HP obv. takes away possible combinations or eases the transition pushes. Considering we killed him ilvl 935 raidwide, which was world-ilvl 370? at that time, i dont see how this isnt already the case. You only need to have dedicated DPS for adds to really be comfortable there.. i can see them nerfing the number of armageddons again or even reducing the tank armageddons to 1 only. Boss will probably remain unforgivable mechanically for a longer time tho, will be interesting

[Dracodraco]

Keep in mind that the further down you go guild-rank wise, the more gear (or nerfs) will be needed to make up for the skill gap. Just because you killed it at 935 (with 3 tanks or 2?) average on your raid, doesn't mean that a guild at twice your rank (so say, around rank 70) will be able to get nearly as close without extra gear and extra nerfs. Issue is, the gear thing is unlikely to happen, because at this point it's reliant on titanforges and absolutely nothing else; Most of our raiders have all but one or maybe two pieces of gear they need from "normal" mythic, and we *just* killed avatar yesterday. Upgrades are difficult to come by, and with the HUGE use of alts, average item levels are out of whack (our best geared 20 are ~937.5 average, but our avatar kill had an average of 934.5 due to alts and rerolls that happened down the line after mistress progress when we started to realise how badly some classes were doing).
A 935 average is actually only 1.5 ilvls ahead of what Method had on their raid for KJ, *over a month ago*. Gear and ilvl starts to become meaningless when almost every single KJ kills sit at 935-936 average (I think I saw one at 937 last time I checked, there might be more now), yet 936 average is not even enough to break the top 400 gear-wise for a guild.

To give some perspective -
There's 3 times as many guilds at 936+ ilvl for their guild-average, than has killed *avatar*. The boss BEFORE KJ.

Is it doable, and is the nerf pointless to some guilds that'd rather see the RNG nerfed than the HP? Abso-fucking-lutely. But it's arrogant to think that just because *you* can do it, everyone else can as well. A HP nerf to avatar won't help my guild much, because we already proved we have the output to kill it with the prenerf HP values, but it'll help guilds down the line tailor their setups to suit whatever they need to do to kill the boss, be it stacking more shield-burst classes, an extra healer, or a few low geared alts for immunities. It's a super lazy, but super versatile nerf that lets people decide how they want to use it to their advantage. And that's probably fine. The same goes for KJ, but I don't have any specifics for KJ as we've yet to even pull him.

[Deleted]

Sorry that i created a false perception of my comment here, in no way did i want to argue about us being some kind of benchmark skill or gear wise. What i wanted to convey was, that KJ is a boss which is simply really really bad to progress on and i didnt think that -hp would make it any kind of different. This was aimed at the general basis of encounter design and not at the skill level of our or any other guilds.

To give perspective, a usual progress night on KJ looked like shit for us (and prob. many other guilds). There are way to many points at which you can fuck up your whole raid without any way of salvaging it from minute 0 on. To make him more accesable for the general bulk of players has to be the worst job ever. I dont even think that you can shave off the number of tries guild will need to kill this boss with a -hp nerf, the kill entirely depends on playing every mechanic right for 14 minutes.

To take Avatar in perspective, i think this was one of the most enjoyable bosses to progress which i ever played. You got the chance to practice p2 before tryharding into a kill, the first phase is linear and can be made easier and easier with exceptional handling, with the shadow blades being the obvious exception at times.

[Fleckens]

Sorry that i created a false perception of my comment here, in no way did i want to argue about us being some kind of benchmark skill or gear wise. What i wanted to convey was, that KJ is a boss which is simply really really bad to progress on and i didnt think that -hp would make it any kind of different. This was aimed at the general basis of encounter design and not at the skill level of our or any other guilds.

To give perspective, a usual progress night on KJ looked like shit for us (and prob. many other guilds). There are way to many points at which you can fuck up your whole raid without any way of salvaging it from minute 0 on. To make him more accesable for the general bulk of players has to be the worst job ever. I dont even think that you can shave off the number of tries guild will need to kill this boss with a -hp nerf, the kill entirely depends on playing every mechanic right for 14 minutes.

To take Avatar in perspective, i think this was one of the most enjoyable bosses to progress which i ever played. You got the chance to practice p2 before tryharding into a kill, the first phase is linear and can be made easier and easier with exceptional handling, with the shadow blades being the obvious exception at times.

Currently progressing on KJ this is definitely how I feel as well, I think the best way would be perhaps a small 5%(perhaps a bit more to the tank adds) health nerf just to make his enrage less of an issue and then nerf the damage of most of his abilities, in particular the dreadflames, both focused and bursting as those are definitely what we are losing most people to, I think the knockbacks and such are fine and you should learn to deal with those but the majority of our deaths are just from those abilities. Also it appears that after 60 traits you no longer get bonus health from your artifact so can't even count on that to help prevent deaths by having higher health pools(Although I do think this is a really good thing, so you're not feeling forced to continue grinding after you fully unlocked the crucible just to get more health).

[Squishei]

I think one of the best changes they can do is to reduce the damage of the Armageddon Rain DoT + a small health nerf to all adds. Multiple rogues shouldn't be brought because they can remove millions of damage from the encounter because of Cloak.

Focused/Bursting I don't think should be an issue alone, the problem is those who have the Rain DoT + that mechanic.

[Cistara]

I think one of the best changes they can do is to reduce the damage of the Armageddon Rain DoT + a small health nerf to all adds. Multiple rogues shouldn't be brought because they can remove millions of damage from the encounter because of Cloak.

Focused/Bursting I don't think should be an issue alone, the problem is those who have the Rain DoT + that mechanic.

Here's what I anticipate them nerfing for KJ

KJ Health Nerf (5%)
Tank & DPS Add Health Nerf (10%~)
Rupturing Singularity Time To Hit Increase by 1-2 Seconds (Or a reduction in the knockback distance again)
1 less Small Armageddon soak.