Finally kruul is dead..

[Devilyaki]

Hiya mmoc
So just a simple post here, after about 200 tries I got that demon dead, kruul for the protection paladin mage tower. It was rather hard for me given my not so wonderful gear consisting of crafted and lfr stuff. A bit odd that this was a tank quest when only the last part had anything to do with that. Happy it is done with.
So why did they make this one so much harder than others, completed this as 908 ilvl were as my mm hunter did theirs at 890? :/

Anyone else find it harder than others, have as many heart breaking wipes or near perfection wins?

[Deleted]

Gz! I did retri the first day the tower came out and holy 2 days later as 892il and 900 il respectively. After so many months i just can't do the tanking one at il 923 ( best try was 20% or something ) :S Of course the challenge itself isn't the only problem i really suck at tanking but it is indeed harder in general for the vast majority of players.

[Devilyaki]

Well the tank one is more about your tank dps thank anything else. Main thing in it would be not getting smashed off (bring gliders, which I forgot worked in there) and interrupt what needs to. On the first guy it's the life drain, but with shield procs it can be almost all casts. And for kruul it's the twisting whatever spell that heals him if he hits you. Also the only tankish part is is keeping adds off the useless healer and hitting cool downs when kruul does devistate.
The pants are super helpful for dps as well as the haste ring.

[cuafpr]

b.c. most tanks want to tank, not tank "dps" for a challenge. this fight should have been all about boss control, sharing dmg with a group of npc's turning away to solo absorb a big hit later.. moving out of buff areas for the boss.. a few adds to pick up. I haven't bothered since the first spawn of the mage tower really due to how dissapointed i am in the challenge... I spose when i over gear it enough, i'll give it ago again b.c. i want the flail.

[Theholypally]

The only retarded part about the tank challenge are the infernals and their instant smash after they respawn.

[Evilmoo]

I gave like 15 attempts @ 930 ilvl and gave up, fuck that

[Snorri]

I gave like 15 attempts @ 930 ilvl and gave up, fuck that

You should do it before Legion ends, because after that you can't get any challenge appearances.

I did the retri with 902 itemlevel in just about 8 tries, but I'm struggling with both the prot and holy challenges with a itemlevel of 925. After I get some upgrades from the Argus raid I will try again.

[Maylander]

Well the tank one is more about your tank dps thank anything else. Main thing in it would be not getting smashed off (bring gliders, which I forgot worked in there) and interrupt what needs to. On the first guy it's the life drain, but with shield procs it can be almost all casts. And for kruul it's the twisting whatever spell that heals him if he hits you. Also the only tankish part is is keeping adds off the useless healer and hitting cool downs when kruul does devistate.
The pants are super helpful for dps as well as the haste ring.

Are you serious? Gliders work? Getting knocked off the platform is by far the most annoying thing in that fight. Man, I wish I had known about that sooner.

A tip from me: Use drums twice. Start of the fight, and after the boss has landed (you get to reset the debuff when he lands).

[Meiffert]

Well the tank one is more about your tank dps thank anything else. Main thing in it would be not getting smashed off (bring gliders, which I forgot worked in there) and interrupt what needs to. On the first guy it's the life drain, but with shield procs it can be almost all casts. And for kruul it's the twisting whatever spell that heals him if he hits you. Also the only tankish part is is keeping adds off the useless healer and hitting cool downs when kruul does devistate.
The pants are super helpful for dps as well as the haste ring.

b.c. most tanks want to tank, not tank "dps" for a challenge. this fight should have been all about boss control, sharing dmg with a group of npc's turning away to solo absorb a big hit later.. moving out of buff areas for the boss.. a few adds to pick up. I haven't bothered since the first spawn of the mage tower really due to how dissapointed i am in the challenge... I spose when i over gear it enough, i'll give it ago again b.c. i want the flail.

I'm confused.
There are adds to pick up. Big hits to soak. Fire to move out of. Abilities to interrupt. Friendly NPC to keep mobs from.
Pretty much everything you talk about is part of the challenge and you have to use a big part of your toolkit to beat it. What else would you like to make it feel like an interesting challenge?


I think you can divide the gameplay into 2 groups, although there is some overlap and the borderline isn't always clear:
1. Mechanics targeting your positioning and utility abilities.
2. Throughput.

1. is pretty obvious, I think the challenge is good enough in this regard and most people complain about 2.
There is a bit of misunderstanding of what tanking throughput means. It is more obvious for a damage dealer - your dps.

As a tank, your main throughput objective should be improving your survivability and dps should be secondary.
I can agree with that, but there is the next step conclusion that is wrong - that tanks doing very low dps are doing nothing wrong.
And I'm not talking about tanks dps counting as much as any other dps if it allows you to kill the boss before enrage. Even though it's true, it's not my main issue with this opinion.

The main issue is this: You can't play well defensively without doing decent damage. Not because there is something wrong with it in principle, but because the way the game is designed, it is literally impossible.

Let's take a paladin as an example (since this is a paladin forum).
Your base defensive ability is Shield of the Righteous. You want to maximize it's up-time to reduce your damage taken. But SotR also does a lot of damage when you use it. You can't prevent it even if you wanted to.
To be able to use SotR more often, you have to use Judgment on cooldown (or close to). You have to stand in your Consecration to increase the damage reduction from SotR. You have to use Avenger's Shield to get the absorbs from Bulwark.
You should use Eye of Tyr often to get that 25 % reduction and Ardent Defender for 20 % and cheat death. You should use Avenging Wrath to self heal more and keep yourself alive.

Using all these abilities improves your defense. You have to use them to tank effectively and survive.
As it turns out, they are the same abilities that almost incidentally deal damage as well.

Are there some options to sacrifice or trade defense for dps? Absolutely.
But if the full-out offensive build with offensive legendaries, trinkets, talents and gameplay does 700k dps, a strong defensive setup will still do maybe 500k (these are numbers in high-end gear). It is lower by a decent amount, but it is still reasonable.

I can assure you that if you see a tank doing 200k dps and they tell you that they are "focusing on defense" because they are a tank, it is nothing else but an excuse. They don't use their abilities well and use the fact that most players don't know enough about this game to analyze logs to figure out that their defense is suffering just as much as their offense.

[Cazz17]

Did it on my paladin in about 10 tries, only issue was the infernals. Screw the infernals!

[Maylander]

I'm confused.
There are adds to pick up. Big hits to soak. Fire to move out of. Abilities to interrupt. Friendly NPC to keep mobs from.
Pretty much everything you talk about is part of the challenge and you have to use a big part of your toolkit to beat it. What else would you like to make it feel like an interesting challenge?


I think you can divide the gameplay into 2 groups, although there is some overlap and the borderline isn't always clear:
1. Mechanics targeting your positioning and utility abilities.
2. Throughput.

1. is pretty obvious, I think the challenge is good enough in this regard and most people complain about 2.
There is a bit of misunderstanding of what tanking throughput means. It is more obvious for a damage dealer - your dps.

As a tank, your main throughput objective should be improving your survivability and dps should be secondary.
I can agree with that, but there is the next step conclusion that is wrong - that tanks doing very low dps are doing nothing wrong.
And I'm not talking about tanks dps counting as much as any other dps if it allows you to kill the boss before enrage. Even though it's true, it's not my main issue with this opinion.

The main issue is this: You can't play well defensively without doing decent damage. Not because there is something wrong with it in principle, but because the way the game is designed, it is literally impossible.

Let's take a paladin as an example (since this is a paladin forum).
Your base defensive ability is Shield of the Righteous. You want to maximize it's up-time to reduce your damage taken. But SotR also does a lot of damage when you use it. You can't prevent it even if you wanted to.
To be able to use SotR more often, you have to use Judgment on cooldown (or close to). You have to stand in your Consecration to increase the damage reduction from SotR. You have to use Avenger's Shield to get the absorbs from Bulwark.
You should use Eye of Tyr often to get that 25 % reduction and Ardent Defender for 20 % and cheat death. You should use Avenging Wrath to self heal more and keep yourself alive.

Using all these abilities improves your defense. You have to use them to tank effectively and survive.
As it turns out, they are the same abilities that almost incidentally deal damage as well.

Are there some options to sacrifice or trade defense for dps? Absolutely.
But if the full-out offensive build with offensive legendaries, trinkets, talents and gameplay does 700k dps, a strong defensive setup will still do maybe 500k (these are numbers in high-end gear). It is lower by a decent amount, but it is still reasonable.

I can assure you that if you see a tank doing 200k dps and they tell you that they are "focusing on defense" because they are a tank, it is nothing else but an excuse. They don't use their abilities well and use the fact that most players don't know enough about this game to analyze logs to figure out that their defense is suffering just as much as their offense.

What annoyed me is that all the actual tanking aspects are trivial. The real challenge is dealing with the knock backs from the infernals, and spending 8 minutes running away from shit doesn't feel very tanky. I'd have an easier time doing that challenge on my warlock or hunter, as their pets should be enough to handle the so-called "tanking" of that challenge, and then I could just sit back and nuke stuff from afar. It would be a breeze.

[Holovik]

What annoyed me is that all the actual tanking aspects are trivial. The real challenge is dealing with the knock backs from the infernals, and spending 8 minutes running away from shit doesn't feel very tanky. I'd have an easier time doing that challenge on my warlock or hunter, as their pets should be enough to handle the so-called "tanking" of that challenge, and then I could just sit back and nuke stuff from afar. It would be a breeze.

Idk, CD management is really important for the annihilates in p2. If you panic and throw everything at the first few you are for sure dead for the later ones. Believe it or not tank DPS is important for hitting high m+ keystones and is very much a part of tanking, especially for paladin since using your CDR and DR is heavily reliant on your damaging abilities. I think it was challenging and engaged both aspects of tanking (dmg and mitigation) pretty well. That being said, I had 100 tries on the paladin one at 917 ilvl whereas I did MM/BM hunter and Frost mage in under 20 tries each with much worse gear.

[Deliverer]

I mean specially now after the massive nerfs to prot paladin challenge and the gear that got better and better there is no dps check. You can probably do it easily with Righteous protector and not run seraphim for the dps.
I agree that some classes have a much easier time cause of their toolkit, like DH for example took me 3 tries at 900 ilvl or so.
If prot pala is your main you should have around 60 traits and 925+ ilvl by now, the challenge was done the first time in 42 traits and around 915 ilvl.
Not counting Kruul had 80M hp and inquisitor 72 or so.
The dps check seems more of an excuse at this point.

[cuafpr]

I'm confused.
There are adds to pick up. Big hits to soak. Fire to move out of. Abilities to interrupt. Friendly NPC to keep mobs from.
Pretty much everything you talk about is part of the challenge and you have to use a big part of your toolkit to beat it. What else would you like to make it feel like an interesting challenge?


I think you can divide the gameplay into 2 groups, although there is some overlap and the borderline isn't always clear:
1. Mechanics targeting your positioning and utility abilities.
2. Throughput.

1. is pretty obvious, I think the challenge is good enough in this regard and most people complain about 2.
There is a bit of misunderstanding of what tanking throughput means. It is more obvious for a damage dealer - your dps.

As a tank, your main throughput objective should be improving your survivability and dps should be secondary.
I can agree with that, but there is the next step conclusion that is wrong - that tanks doing very low dps are doing nothing wrong.
And I'm not talking about tanks dps counting as much as any other dps if it allows you to kill the boss before enrage. Even though it's true, it's not my main issue with this opinion.

The main issue is this: You can't play well defensively without doing decent damage. Not because there is something wrong with it in principle, but because the way the game is designed, it is literally impossible.

Let's take a paladin as an example (since this is a paladin forum).
Your base defensive ability is Shield of the Righteous. You want to maximize it's up-time to reduce your damage taken. But SotR also does a lot of damage when you use it. You can't prevent it even if you wanted to.
To be able to use SotR more often, you have to use Judgment on cooldown (or close to). You have to stand in your Consecration to increase the damage reduction from SotR. You have to use Avenger's Shield to get the absorbs from Bulwark.
You should use Eye of Tyr often to get that 25 % reduction and Ardent Defender for 20 % and cheat death. You should use Avenging Wrath to self heal more and keep yourself alive.

Using all these abilities improves your defense. You have to use them to tank effectively and survive.
As it turns out, they are the same abilities that almost incidentally deal damage as well.

Are there some options to sacrifice or trade defense for dps? Absolutely.
But if the full-out offensive build with offensive legendaries, trinkets, talents and gameplay does 700k dps, a strong defensive setup will still do maybe 500k (these are numbers in high-end gear). It is lower by a decent amount, but it is still reasonable.

I can assure you that if you see a tank doing 200k dps and they tell you that they are "focusing on defense" because they are a tank, it is nothing else but an excuse. They don't use their abilities well and use the fact that most players don't know enough about this game to analyze logs to figure out that their defense is suffering just as much as their offense.

For me, my DPS in this challenge would be 0, heck my DPS in group could be 0 for all i care long as i hold threat and don't die. Tanks used to watch and measure TPS not DPS. All of the abilities you mention produce numbers b.c. blizz made it that way, they could provide the same effects in terms of DR but much less DPS and more TPS if the numbers were different, and if TPS mattered anymore.

I would have designed it so the boss had some sort of buff preventing my dmg or a large part of it, a squad of NPC DPS's and healers. Add in a cleave to turn to the NPC's a large hit to face away from the DPS, a few adds. have the boss drop a healing and/or dmg pool, and a heal or big spell to interrupt. IF the coding could handle it have an NPC off tank that would taunt at key times and you had to taunt back at key times.

sure tank dps can be good but its the absolute last thing i worry about.

imo tank DPS became a thing when blizz wanted to make it easier to lvl / solo as prot. I never had issues with it though and leveled as prot pally in BC, sure it took longer but that was life as a tank. Though likely why you had less tanks around back then.

i'm very much aware its my issue with the way tank game design has gone but it is what it is... I don't like DPS roles for the most part nor do i like pally healing, and enjoy tanking so i adjust (to an extent).

[Deleted]

Gratz! The tanking challenge is imo quite harder than any of the other challenges.

Have you tried the healing one?

The DPS one for monks/warlocks whatnot is a joke. Did it on my 9th attempt with 880 gear. It also lasted 8mins instead of 25-30 for the healing one. No idea why they took this approach.

[Temp name]

Have you tried the healing one?

The DPS one for monks/warlocks whatnot is a joke. Did it on my 9th attempt with 880 gear. It also lasted 8mins instead of 25-30 for the healing one. No idea why they took this approach.

Done the healing one, attempted the tank one, decided to wait until 7.3.5 to do it. Not worth the headache

[Theholypally]

Finally did my Kruul challenge and beat it (after a few thousand shards spent on the challenge). The healing one and dps one were jokes in comparison but im also a shit tank so.

All i can say is its quite the crap shoot at the end (the final 10mil or so health).

[Deleted]

Some really sick gamers here i mean it took me around 8 tries to find out what the animations on spells look like and try to time some cc well not to mention theoritising what leggos and talents to pick and some did the challenge with even less tries than that

[Darklurker]

Did it today, at 914 equipped. Took me 74 tries. That is probably the combined amount of tries that it took me to get all of my Warrior's challenges done, so it was no joke. Didn't have the pants or any set bonus, just Saruan's Resolve and Soul of the Highlord. The Gronntooth War Horn is truly outstanding.