[Spoilers] Illidan, the greatest hypocritical douche of all times.

[Ifrica]

Consider this: the Army of Light supposedly have been fighting the Legion for thousand(s?) years. Illidan has only been actively doing so for less than a decade (not counting the time he spent thinking / digesting information inside his jail cell). Yet, it was Illidan and his Demon Hunters who gave the Legion their greatest defeat they ever suffered in millennia by TBC. With that in mind, is "good" powers really that powerful? Was there even any indication that he'd gain significantly more power by exchanging one type of energy to another (yes, she didn't just give him more power, she was trying to erase his Fel power in proceed) given that Fel is the most destructive power in the universe?

I'm not saying the Army of the Light or the Light energy is weak, but I don't see any reason why Illidan should be convinced that going with Xe'ra, letting her decide his fate and throwing away his belief would help him.

Illidan has been fighting the Legion much longer then a decade, he was already battling them in the War of the Ancients, alongside Lord Ravencrest. This was even before (or around the time) Neltharion became Deathwing. He was there when the Demon Soul (Dragon Soul) was first used against the Legion.
If I'm not mistaken there was no mention of the Army of the Light at that time yet.

[Charge me Doctor]

When we start our demon hunters, all we learn is ''sacrifice everything to defeat the Legion'' and ''do wherever it takes''..

You've got the message wrong, it's you need to sacrifice everything for him to defeat the Legion. It's you do wherever it takes for him to get power. It always was the case, i don't get how anyone is surprised by it. It was one of the reasons Malfurion and Cenarius didn't trust Illidan, it was one of the reasons we killed him in BT

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Pretty much this.

Illidan's done A LOT for his People.

He've done a lot for himself. People didn't needed him bringing Demon Soul into Sargeras hands. People didn't needed him stealing water from the well just to create another source that will eventually be used to summon demons into this world again. And what did he exactly do to "his" people? Drank them dry in an failed attempt to save the keep, which didn't even matter in the long run. Good job.

He had to take the lives of other people to stop the Legion

It didn't worked tho. And how convenient it is to take someone elses life to reach your goals, right?

he sacrificed his Mortal Eye sight for new, magical, Demon seeing Eyes.

I would gladly sacrifice my shitty PC for 10k$ one, thanks. It's hardly a sacrifice, it was a trade or payment. And we all conveniently forget about a retcon that happened - Sargeras could see everything Illidan sees, he wanted to be sure that Illidan doesn't betray him, but somehow it doesn't work anymore, hurp derp.

He sacrificed his Free man BS to make a new Well for magical might (Which wasn't really a bad thing, either way. Mainly due to the fact that the well is WAY too small for another invasion to occur)

...right after elves realize that this exact water and magic in general lead to a catastrophe, it wasn't a sacrifice, he acted selfishly because didn't wanted to give up his arcane art and got punished for that

he sacrificed the Forest and his Mortal form, so that he could defeat Tichondrius, and save the World.

He had no intention to save the world, he wanted to prove his brethren that he is not a traitor, he wanted to redeem himself in eyes of his brother and his loved one, but he flopped when he've seen an opportunity to get more power and quickly forgot about his words when he was about to be released.

He made the Illidari, he gained Powerful Artifacts, he sacrificed his life, he gave his own free will to power once. Hell, he almost got to Antorus, to defeat the Legion, until the Champions came to kill him.

Uh huh, he also made Naga to drain all water off outland, he also made fel orks and allowed them to attack azeroth, he also enslaved broken. One thing that he never gave up was his free will. If champions and Maev were able to defeat him - he wouldn't stand a chance on Antorus.

He may be a dick at times, but he's still Illidan.

Yeah, exactly, he is still Illidan, that's why he should be shoved back in the cage and we should figure another way to defeat legion, he is not trustworthy and will betray anyone just to achieve his goals.

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At least the gift bestowed upon him from Sargeras was done willingly

He didn't really had an option to say "no" in the palace back in the war of the ancient...

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Are we sure? Do we know what Lothraxion may have been like before? Lothraxion may be fine, but is he still the same guy he was before being "reforged"?

We are as sure about it as we are sure about Xe'ra mind controlling Illidan or making him weaker. It's a matter of belief at this point and who do you like more.

For me: there were no instances of Naaru mindcotrolling anyone or lying about their intentions. There are instances of Illidan acting selfishly and against common goals.
I'll say that Xe'ra (even considering her completely undeveloped character) is more trustworthy than Illidan

[Deleted]

I'll say that Xe'ra (even considering her completely undeveloped character) is more trustworthy than Illidan

It doesn't mean that Xe'ra was trustworthy, she didn't even explained her masterplan. After all, Velen became conflicted with her actions for a reason.

[Deleted]

Maybe she wanted him to destroy her, maybe in doing so she knew that he had what it takes to finally stop the legion threat so maybe the sacrifice wasn't his it was hers, as if he had given into the light so easierly then maybe she would have had to make a new plan

[Deleted]

So, we should not drug psychos cause they will change? Its evil?

As long as your definition of psychos includes Xe'ra and Lothraxion but not Illidan, let's drug them all into fucking oblivion.

Because all categorisation is subjective, every single time, monsieur.

[Qualia]

Illidan has been fighting the Legion much longer then a decade, he was already battling them in the War of the Ancients, alongside Lord Ravencrest. This was even before (or around the time) Neltharion became Deathwing. He was there when the Demon Soul (Dragon Soul) was first used against the Legion.
If I'm not mistaken there was no mention of the Army of the Light at that time yet.

I said "Illidan has only been actively doing so for less than a decade (not counting the time he spent thinking / digesting information inside his jail cell)" in my post, though. Sitting around in a jail cell, imprisoned by your own race is hardly actively fighting against the Legion. It's not like he could gather power or build any short of army during those 10,000 years.

Datamined dialogue that isn't available in game is inherently a spoiler, IDK how you'd think it would be anything else? If a script gets leaked 3 months before a movie comes out, and you openly talk about the twist a month before the movie is out it's not somehow not a spoiler.

Fair enough. I just didn't think it's since it has been discussed here over and over a few times. I'll put it in spoilers tag, then. If that spoiled the ending for you, I apology.

It didn't worked tho. And how convenient it is to take someone elses life to reach your goals, right?

I would gladly sacrifice my shitty PC for 10k$ one, thanks. It's hardly a sacrifice, it was a trade or payment.

Refer to my post. Some people here seems to either misunderstood the meaning of sacrifice, or overglorified the word. It can be a trade-off. Here, the definition in dictionary: "destruction or surrender of something for the sake of something else" or "give up (something valued) for the sake of other considerations.". Its synonyms are, going by Google definition, "give up, abandon, surrender, forgo, renounce, forfeit, relinquish, resign, abdicate, sign away, yield, cede, waive". That's why you see people asking others to sacrifice some meals for hungry children, or people saying that businessmen sacrificed hours of their lives to work, and various other examples that you can call "a trade or payment".

I understand that you might be looking for the more respected form of sacrifice: self-sacrifice, in particular, sacrificing one's life. However, as I said, self-sacrifice isn't the only form of sacrifice. You don't seem to be fond of the fact that Illidan mainly sacrificed others, but that's what great generals / leaders in our world in history did as well. Sacrificing troops to gain victory is hardly unknown, but I don't see majority of people having issue with those leaders. After all, the life of a powerful leader should never been sacrifice for little gains, especially if you can do the same by sacrificing fodders instead. Illidan / Khadgar / Velen / us / etc. is hard to replace, random Moon Guard B / Fel Orc C isn't. The question is if they / Illidan would be willing to sacrifice himself when the time comes (when the result would decide our victory / defeat, or if there is no other choice), and he was / will be.

If champions and Maev were able to defeat him - he wouldn't stand a chance on Antorus.

This has been explained so so many times. We + Maiev being able to defeat him when he was virtually on the verge of death - and barely doing so in fact - doesn't mean his plan wouldn't success if we left him alone. Obviously, he'd spend time to recover. I doubt he'd have come to Argus in the state we fought. And even if he + the DHs weren't enough to defeat KJ, setting off the portal to unleash an explosion to destroy Argus would have worked as well.

[Charge me Doctor]

sacrifice in dictionary

It doesn't make him any good, you know who also loved sacrifice in the context you apply to Illidan? Zandalari, and other "rebel" troll tribes and Old Gods.
Illidan simply traded either something of his own to become more powerful, or traded someone elses stuff (including life) to become more powerful.
And again, all Illidan does is makes other living beings sacrifice something, while gaining power in return, he didn't sacrifice anything because he always gained something in return

[Ifrica]

I said "Illidan has only been actively doing so for less than a decade (not counting the time he spent thinking / digesting information inside his jail cell)" in my post, though. Sitting around in a jail cell, imprisoned by your own race is hardly actively fighting against the Legion. It's not like he could gather power or build any short of army during those 10,000 years.

When he was fighting the first invasion in the War of the Ancients alongside Brox, Rhonin, Krasus, Malfurion, Tyrande and Ravencrest (before he turned demon) he wasn't in jail yet. I'm referring to the trilogy book, which as far as i know is canon. If fighting off waves of demons and confronting the big generals isn't actively fighting then I don't know what is, and in Azeroth time, that is way longer ago than a decade, this was before the Sundering.

[Qualia]

It doesn't make him any good, you know who also loved sacrifice in the context you apply to Illidan? Zandalari, and other "rebel" troll tribes and Old Gods.
Illidan simply traded either something of his own to become more powerful, or traded someone elses stuff (including life) to become more powerful.
And again, all Illidan does is makes other living beings sacrifice something, while gaining power in return, he didn't sacrifice anything because he always gained something in return

I do I agree with you that it doesn't make him any good. My point was just that it isn't hypocrisy - maybe double-standard at most.

When he was fighting the first invasion in the War of the Ancients alongside Brox, Rhonin, Krasus, Malfurion, Tyrande and Ravencrest (before he turned demon) he wasn't in jail yet. I'm referring to the trilogy book, which as far as i know is canon. If fighting off waves of demons and confronting the big generals isn't actively fighting then I don't know what is, and in Azeroth time, that is way longer ago than a decade, this was before the Sundering.

That battle definitely last less than a month, I believe. The time Illidan actively fighting against the Legion is the time he spent outside of his NE prison or dying, which is WoTA + the period between WC3 and TBC + Legion. I believe those summed up to around a decade, or less.

[Ifrica]

I do I agree with you that it doesn't make him any good. My point was just that it isn't hypocrisy - maybe double-standard at most.


That battle definitely last less than a month, I believe. The time Illidan actively fighting against the Legion is the time he spent outside of his NE prison or dying, which is WoTA + the period between WC3 and TBC + Legion. I believe those summed up to around a decade, or less.

Could be, I love the lore but i'm hardly a wow historian Now time in wow is something strange and for me it has always been hard to grasp the times of events, wow made this even worse, as we don't age.
I do understand the point you're making, although I'm wondering how much time there is between the events of wota and the events of the black temple.
I would imagine, in all that time, in some way, he was fighting or at least preparing the fight against them. One could say that building an army to get them defeated is actively working on their defeat.
But yea, it's a bit the way you look at it, but your first comment came over as if Illidan hasn't done anything against the Legion, while the events of wota alone speak for themselves.

Another contradiction that i found in the lore are the events that are shown in the flashback with Blackrook Hold, where the mages powers are absorbed. Ingame we see this as happening inside BrH during an attack on the Hold, but in the book this happens on the frontlines of the battle against the Legion. I guess they retconned some stuff, but it did bother me a bit.

[Toppy]

Could be, I love the lore but i'm hardly a wow historian Now time in wow is something strange and for me it has always been hard to grasp the times of events, wow made this even worse, as we don't age.
I do understand the point you're making, although I'm wondering how much time there is between the events of wota and the events of the black temple.
I would imagine, in all that time, in some way, he was fighting or at least preparing the fight against them. One could say that building an army to get them defeated is actively working on their defeat.
But yea, it's a bit the way you look at it, but your first comment came over as if Illidan hasn't done anything against the Legion, while the events of wota alone speak for themselves.

Another contradiction that i found in the lore are the events that are shown in the flashback with Blackrook Hold, where the mages powers are absorbed. Ingame we see this as happening inside BrH during an attack on the Hold, but in the book this happens on the frontlines of the battle against the Legion. I guess they retconned some stuff, but it did bother me a bit.

He fought demons for less than a year in WotA, then was soon after imprisoned.

He was released in the year 20, by this point he's been in prison for 10,000 years and only has less than a years experience with demons.

TBC happens 6 years later, so thats 6 years of being out and about and sometimes fighting demons. Of course he's defeated and isnt freed again for some time. At this point he's been active for a few months.

So he has at most 7 years of experience fighting demons. A lot of which was spent hiding from KJ.

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That said, did everyone miss him bantering at Velen for having to much faith in the light and how he balks at the notion that the light is what everyone needs to beat the Legion?

Illidan denied the power of the light because he believes strongly that him losing his demonic powers would weaken him. It would be a needless and wasteful step back, and the Naaru Prime had already proven itself to be not that great of a force against the legion.

[AcidicSyn]

He fought demons for less than a year in WotA, then was soon after imprisoned.

He was released in the year 20, by this point he's been in prison for 10,000 years and only has less than a years experience with demons.

TBC happens 6 years later, so thats 6 years of being out and about and sometimes fighting demons. Of course he's defeated and isnt freed again for some time. At this point he's been active for a few months.

So he has at most 7 years of experience fighting demons. A lot of which was spent hiding from KJ.

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That said, did everyone miss him bantering at Velen for having to much faith in the light and how he balks at the notion that the light is what everyone needs to beat the Legion?

Illidan denied the power of the light because he believes strongly that him losing his demonic powers would weaken him. It would be a needless and wasteful step back, and the Naaru Prime had already proven itself to be not that great of a force against the legion.

While I agree with everything you said personally; I'd say surviving on Argus and other legion worlds waging a guerilla war for, how many years since the Draenei exodus? 25 thousand or something like that? I mean, if to be great you need to be winning then sure- they are not great. But 25k+ years of underdog war efforts without being annihilated to me means they're either skilled or the legion is just flat out incompetent to the point of comedy. if it's the former; credit where it's due and all.

[Deleted]

Perhaps one of the greatest champions of the light ever was faithful, and where did it get him? In a pool of green shit after a huge ass demon barbecued him.

dont forget Arthas and later Uther

[anaxie]

dont forget Arthas and later Uther

Arthas was a very poor champion of the light.

He was a selfish entitled prince and every member of the silver hand was against arthas joining. But since he was the prince uther did it himself. And look what happened

[Deleted]

Yeah, Illidan isn't a good example of it.

He's as dumb as rocks and justifies everything for "the greater good" when it's really just justifying his horrible actions in his own quest for personal power. They can try to make him seem all noble with the Illidan book while he was in Outland, but things like SWP and the Fel Orc threat are a direct result of his recklessness.

But nope, the heroes of Azeroth are the blind ones. Nevermind Khagdar, Trollbane, Nazgrel, the remaining Draenei survivors and the Naaru were on outland the -entire- fucking time Illidan was there and not even a single contact was made. And when there was? Illidan was openly hostile, because reasons. Again, just another excuse for the constant shit storm of fuck ups that Illidan justifies by literally being himself. That is not a good character, anti-hero or not.

Edit: And that's not even stepping into the fact that Blizzard finished Illidan's story 10 years ago before dredging it up from the bottom of the sewer and "establishing" background lore on what Illidan was "actually" doing in Outland. That kind of literary renege is, to put it lightly, disappointing of authors who are better than that.

please please please.... give me the link to your profile pic y.y

[Tiwack]

I get the sense OP was not prepared..
He's taken over where Thrall left off. Hero or anti-hero.
Players can't be the main protagonist that'd be absurd... Way more fitting to have them lead "armies"... /s

[Deleted]

Arthas was a very poor champion of the light.

He was a selfish entitled prince and every member of the silver hand was against arthas joining. But since he was the prince uther did it himself. And look what happened

anduin got a gigantic bell fall on top of him and 2/3 of his bones were broken

[anaxie]

anduin got a gigantic bell fall on top of him and 2/3 of his bones were broken

No one cares

[Zulkhan]

For me: there were no instances of Naaru mindcotrolling anyone or lying about their intentions. There are instances of Illidan acting selfishly and against common goals.
I'll say that Xe'ra (even considering her completely undeveloped character) is more trustworthy than Illidan

Problem with Naaru is that they rely entirely on the "faith" of their followers, they're clearly accustomed to gain their trust through the positive influence they spread, making them to get anything they want while offering little more than dubious promises in return. Not to say they're "evil" but surely they're not the epitome of reliability.

That said, did everyone miss him bantering at Velen for having to much faith in the light and how he balks at the notion that the light is what everyone needs to beat the Legion?

Illidan denied the power of the light because he believes strongly that him losing his demonic powers would weaken him. It would be a needless and wasteful step back, and the Naaru Prime had already proven itself to be not that great of a force against the legion.

I don't think that's the actual issue. The Light in Illidan's hands could indeed be a ridiculously powerful weapon against demonic entities. Illidan himself clearly draws a parallel to when he traded his freedom for power before (not sure if he refers to when he dealt with Sargeras during the WotA or when he absorbed the Skull of Gul'dan in WC3) hinting that indeed he could have got one massive power boost out of Xe'ra's deal.

The crux of the matter seems to be more about Illidan's utter lack of faith in the Light's ways. This was very much evident when he basically blamed the Light and the Naaru for the passive stance of Velen, one that, according to him, put Velen in the situation of "failing his people" and having "their blood in his hands". Agree with him or not, that's the focal point.

anduin got a gigantic bell fall on top of him and 2/3 of his bones were broken

...and?

[Swalload]

No...I don't think you haven't moved on because you're around MMOC...I know it offers more than just WoW...I think you haven't moved on because you still feel the need to talk about WoW.

As much as you claim you're over WoW you come to this post to shit talk WoW....which proves you haven't moved on. If you were completely over WoW you wouldn't need to do this. You're like a jilted lover and you come to see other people who felt mistreated...so you can laugh at them because you can't seem to get over the pain WoW has left inside you.

You so obviously aren't over WoW yet...

No I laugh at them because they are like a battered wife who stays with the man beating her cuz she doesn't believe she can live on her own. Like that person is the only thing that exist, and she keeps lying to the doctors "oh I just fell down the stairs". And I'm the doctor who says "stairs don't cum in your ass while punching you behind the head" and all they do is live in denial.

Also, why would I come here and not talk about WoW? It would be extremely awkward if I clicked on the thread "Spoilers Illidan the greatest hypocritical douche of all times" and just start talking about the discussion I had at work with that person no one here knows. Makes no sense man.

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Doubtful, since you are here shitting on a product you claim to not bother with anymore.

This game doesn't need to shit on it anymore than people already do, I'm mostly here to shit on people who live in denial.