Finland's police patrols will now all carry MP5s.

[HumbleDuck]

How is a longer barrelled gun with shoulder stock better than handgun if you need to fire beyond your immediate reach? Are you kidding?

Are you suggesting that an ordinary cop spraying in a crowded area is safe? There is a reason why there are swat teams around.

- - - Updated - - -

Way better accuracy than pistol.

10 meters don't sound much, but in actual chaotic situation with possible civilians near, inaccuracy of a handgun can have devastating results.

- - - Updated - - -



This is not the US. Police rarely even uses gun here.

In 2013 police fired a gun six times.

In the whole country.

And most of those were warning shots, not aimed directly at anyone.

https://yle.fi/uutiset/osasto/news/f...n_2013/7701005

In that situation both mp5 and handguns are useless, an ordinary cop is not trained to deal with such situations, they will probably just injure more people than the terrorist.

[Wilian]

In that situation both mp5 and handguns are useless, an ordinary cop is not trained to deal with such situations, they will probably just injure more people than the terrorist.

In Finland they are actually.

[HumbleDuck]

I don't really give a shit what some foreigner that has no idea about the quality of Finnish police forces thinks.

Then you shouldn't have participated in the discussion.

[Deleted]

In this thread: all Fins rushing to correct people who think that all cops are as badly trained/disciplined as in the US.

FTFY a bit.

[skakruk]

Good for them. The range argument seems odd though. While MP5s probably have double the effective range of their glocks, an officer attempting such shots would need to be highly skilled when firing in an urban setting, with possible bystanders.

[Deleted]

In this thread: all Fins rushing to the defense of this decision no matter what.

Well, I am pretty sure I wasn't jumping to be for the decision, when I wrote the OP, so that makes you categorically wrong, period. Also, just to educate you, it's "Finns", not "Fins". Fish have fins.

[Venant]

Now that they have declared Antifa a domestic terrorist organization, I wonder if police in the US will start showing up at protests with MP5s instead of tear gas launchers.

[Kellhound]

I bet you can't do it nearly as fast and as nearly as accurately in the real world (aka not standing still on a flat static range)

Its all physics in the end. More contact points on the body to steady the weapon, the faster and more accurate you can be. Just remember how popular SMG's are. Special operations teams aren't conducting raids with pistols as a primary weapon for a reason.

Also, I wouldn't call them slow unless you count having to go to a car to get it. Then in that case you are correct.

I can get on target faster and my first aimed shot off faster, smaller and lighter. And I did just fine in my "live action" pistol quals.
They use them because they are full auto and more powerful than a pistol in the same caliber, not because they are easier to handle in CQB. They are also being replaced with M4s in a lot of cases.
They are faster than a 20" 12ga, I will give you that.

[Post]

FTFY a bit.

Thanks for proving my point.

Well, I am pretty sure I wasn't jumping to be for the decision, when I wrote the OP, so that makes you categorically wrong, period. Also, just to educate you, it's "Finns", not "Fins". Fish have fins.

True, you weren't 100% convinced yet. Also sorry I forgot your extra "n."

[Zeta333]

Most US LE militarization occurs through the Pentagon's 1033 program, through which, any old military equipment can be transferred to any US LE agency at reduced costs ('second hand tanks'). If you are the head of a US police department, you just fill out a simple one pager (below) and the government will send you the second-hand tank of your choosing:



Now, there are arguments for why the US needs this level of militarization now - but it's not thugs or even foreign terrorists. As the NY Times reported, from the mouth of a regional police department sheriff who had just bought an APC - their fear is the return of US veterans, with the knowledge to build IEDs, or the skills to out-shoot local police - who would potentially turn violent. In effect, the NYT is suggesting the unspoken reason for US militarization is a fear of our own vets.

Yet of course, the reality is - since the likelihood of veterans rising up to kill cops is very low - this armament is either going to rot (waste) or be used against civilians (excessive even against dangerous criminals).

And none of those are tanks nor are they offensive vehicles. And if you get scared by those your stupid.

- - - Updated - - -

[/IMG]

I never said .50cal machine guns, just .50cal, as in the military anti-material Barret style rifle.

When you pick an AR-15 (which includes M-16s, M-4s, and other select fire weapons in the AR-15 family btw) over a more conventional rifle, yeah thats leaning towards militarization. Add in the shift of duty equipment carry from Sam Browne to tactical load bearing vests and carrying enough ammunition to go to war, and its easy to see the shift in mindset of many police forces. Gear also seems to influence how police-civilian interactions go down, and not in a good way.

The last I checked, the only major change that the conversion from revolvers to semiautomatic handguns caused was the doubling of the number of shots fired by the police, but not the number of hits.

YOu do know what the primary purpose of a 50cal anti material rifle is correct? Its to core an engine and stop it in its tracks. Also please show me some people outside of swat with burst or auto fire rifles or weapons. You also clearly dont know how much ammo is needed to go to war.

[Deleted]

MP5 is a fully automatic machine pistol. I have no clue why LE anywhere would carry these en masse. Even in the hands of trained operators they have a low % of hits on target due to recoil and are outright inferior in anything but extremely close combat to a short barreled rifle like an AAC Honey Badger. I would even argue they are inferior in ANY situation to our fully integrated suppressed AR short barrel platform rifles.

1.) MP5 is actually not even the current model, which is more along the H&K UMP now. So if indeed they are buying tons of MP5s...LOL
2.) MP5s are not cheap and are simply outright inferior to newer far more advanced systems like the KRISS VECTOR Super V which I have. I will easily dance with someone wielding a MP5 as I will 50%+ more rounds on center mass, have a fraction of the recoil and be shooting a far heavier .45ACP round too.
3.) Currently LE has a crazy high rate of rounds fired that actually land on bystanders or fellow officers, this would be astronomically high if they are equipped with MP5s.
4.) Any range >50m a trained AK operator will hose down a MP5 equipped shooter with ease.
5.) AR platform rifle with red dot sight for rapid target acquisition and a flip out magnifier will destroy both a MP5 shooter and AK operator.
6.) Lightweight SCAR 17 Heavy properly configured will own everyone and still come in at about 12 lbs fully loaded.

You have been playing too much Call of Duty.

[Vapo]

Then imo it would be better to spend the money on training special forces instead of equipping regular cops with mp5s.

The police training in Finland is 3 years and is rather comprehensive as it is Bachelor-level degree.

Also regular cops already have MP5s in their cars, now they are just making sure that they have enough MP5s for all cops instead of 1 per patrol. They wont be open carrying these in regular patrol either. Also since Finland has mandatory military service, most of the police officers already have experience with Assault rifles etc with 6 to 12 months served in the FDF.

[Kellhound]

And none of those are tanks nor are they offensive vehicles. And if you get scared by those your stupid.

- - - Updated - - -



YOu do know what the primary purpose of a 50cal anti material rifle is correct? Its to core an engine and stop it in its tracks. Also please show me some people outside of swat with burst or auto fire rifles or weapons. You also clearly dont know how much ammo is needed to go to war.

If you do not think a M113 cannot be used offensively against civilians you are nuts.

Hmm, with a name like anti material I figured it was used as a fly swatter!
83,000 M16 and M14 rifles have been transferred from the US military to law enforcement in the last 20 years, which is enough to equip about 10% of the full time police forces of the US. I am not really sure why police needed 5000 surplus bayonets.

The basic load for a WWII US rifleman was ~80 rounds, 4 17 round Glock mags is 68 rounds (I have seen patrol officers in mid sized towns with this many ready mags). Not very far off, especially when you consider 30 years ago most officers carried 18 revolver rounds total and the only long gun most of them had was a 6 round 12ga. Yet despite the massive increase in ammo carried, the number of shots fired has only gone up about 33% (however with accuracy of police gunfire still being on average less than 33%, that means a lot more stray bullets flying about).

[Zeta333]

If you do not think a M113 cannot be used offensively against civilians you are nuts.

Hmm, with a name like anti material I figured it was used as a fly swatter!
83,000 M16 and M14 rifles have been transferred from the US military to law enforcement in the last 20 years, which is enough to equip about 10% of the full time police forces of the US. I am not really sure why police needed 5000 surplus bayonets.

The basic load for a WWII US rifleman was ~80 rounds, 4 17 round Glock mags is 68 rounds (I have seen patrol officers in mid sized towns with this many ready mags). Not very far off, especially when you consider 30 years ago most officers carried 18 revolver rounds total and the only long gun most of them had was a 6 round 12ga. Yet despite the massive increase in ammo carried, the number of shots fired has only gone up about 33% (however with accuracy of police gunfire still being on average less than 33%, that means a lot more stray bullets flying about).

any vehicle can be used offensivly, fuck a pen can be used as a weapon. Also i like comparing glock ammo to m1 garrand ammo. You kids are grasping for straws. Show me outside of swat regular line duty cops rocking burst or automatic weapons.

[Nehezbegar]

Its a fucking sign of times we live in. To think that even its needed to have police officers walking with mp5 on the streets.

[Aquinan]

Most people in Europe are used to this kind of police officer:

*happy cartoon cop*

And think it's very sad if we're now seeing more of this kind of police officers:

*Special Forces Soldiers*


Some feel safer, and some feel that it might cause more harm than good. A sad development nonetheless.

Thats a gross hyperbole.



Thats what you will get.

[Krawu]

Still better than the image of the shade-wearing 400-pound-cop with an automatic armor-piercing assault rifle firing at unarmed hobos and fleeing black graffiti artists on crowded streets that most Europeans have of US law enforcement. I'm pretty sure that's not accurate, but it's still what comes to my mind when someone starts a sentence with "Police in America...".
And sadly, US police have nobody but themselves to blame for their shitty reputation around the globe because the bads among them are reeeeeally bad.

[Kellhound]

any vehicle can be used offensivly, fuck a pen can be used as a weapon. Also i like comparing glock ammo to m1 garrand ammo. You kids are grasping for straws. Show me outside of swat regular line duty cops rocking burst or automatic weapons.

You really do not get the power of a M113.... Yes, I was being nice, as the normal number of rounds carried by M1911 armed troops was far less, and we are talking about the difference in a combat rifleman and a beat cop. And don't call me a kid, I likely fired my first M-16 before you were born. I never said they did, after all most of them can hardly handle a semi-auto handgun. That being said, they dont need ANY AR derivatives and the widespread adoption of them is just part of the transformation of the general US police into a force of intimidation and not of cooperation.

[Zeta333]

You really do not get the power of a M113.... Yes, I was being nice, as the normal number of rounds carried by M1911 armed troops was far less, and we are talking about the difference in a combat rifleman and a beat cop. And don't call me a kid, I likely fired my first M-16 before you were born. I never said they did, after all most of them can hardly handle a semi-auto handgun. That being said, they dont need ANY AR derivatives and the widespread adoption of them is just part of the transformation of the general US police into a force of intimidation and not of cooperation.

i guess you and me see different things they have to deal with, go become a cop if you think thier job is so easy and you can armchair lead them from here. Sorry but they have what they have becuase of the majority of people that they deal with are absolute shitheads, if the american population could actually follow the law and follow lawfully orders when given them by the cops this would be a better place, but people cant, so we have what we have now

[Kellhound]

i guess you and me see different things they have to deal with, go become a cop if you think thier job is so easy and you can armchair lead them from here. Sorry but they have what they have becuase of the majority of people that they deal with are absolute shitheads, if the american population could actually follow the law and follow lawfully orders when given them by the cops this would be a better place, but people cant, so we have what we have now

I am not a power hungry egomaniac, and I value the Constitution, so I have no interest in being a police office in the US. As I said, they have massively increased their firepower but for no statistically viable reason.