Blue responded about BM

[Mavick]

I wouldn't bother replying to Shakou. He doesn't really contribute much here other than hurling insults at people's math and reading abilities and eventually getting himself banned repeatedly.

[Dossou]

The reason BM is fine at the bottom is because its the easiest by FAR ranged dps in the game.

95% of the people who are going to be playing BM are extremely casual players who will feel like they're owning because at their skill level, BM is one of the better specs.

There is 0 movement penalty for BM, there is little to no skill required to play BM, why would BM ever be near the top?

[Biomega]

The reason BM is fine at the bottom is because its the easiest by FAR ranged dps in the game.

95% of the people who are going to be playing BM are extremely casual players who will feel like they're owning because at their skill level, BM is one of the better specs.

There is 0 movement penalty for BM, there is little to no skill required to play BM, why would BM ever be near the top?

Again, it's not about being top dps, it's about the gap between specs.

And BM isn't phenomenally easier to play than MM, or most other ranged specs. No ranged class is complex right now.

[Jujudrood]

Hasn't BM always scaled poorly since forever?
I remember back in BC being a demi-god early on and fading into the middle of the pack as it went on.
Same with Wrath and the eventual advent of real 'specs' (removal of 51-pt spread, forced into one tree).
BM always looks strong at first, but then gear levels increase and BM stays stagnant.
I doubt BM will ever get 'fixed' as far as scaling goes, so this isn't surprising.
It was solid at first, but now that we near the end of Legion (last tier soon, anyway), BM is back to the 'for funsies but not for realsies' spec.

What blows my mind is the fact that they can't fix the scaling issue.
Like, every ability does damage based on % of some kind of value, so how is it that hard to balance those values?
I know the difference is in the abilities, sure, because every class isn't simplistic with just 'light', 'medium', and 'heavy' attacks, but come on.

[Deleted]

So... Go MM? It'll benefit heavily from weapon levels.
Seriously, the constant whine about BM "being bottom" is getting a bit silly

How is it silly? You pay each month for this game. You should be able to play what you want while still being competitive, which isn't the case.
You are forced to reroll to stay competitive or just quit the game (eventually when you get benched), which I finally did after they first didn't fix SV and now Elemental Shaman seems to be in the same boat.

It's silly that there is such a big gap between specs and classes and that people pay for it and ask for changes, yet they never change it.

[Ladyoftheforest]

How is it silly? You pay each month for this game. You should be able to play what you want while still being competitive, which isn't the case.
You are forced to reroll to stay competitive or just quit the game (eventually when you get benched), which I finally did after they first didn't fix SV and now Elemental Shaman seems to be in the same boat.

It's silly that there is such a big gap between specs and classes and that people pay for it and ask for changes, yet they never change it.

It's not a right to be competitive so you shouldn't take that for granted. We're all at the mercy of the devs. Sometimes you're in a good position, sometimes you're not. Can't think of any class that never received any kind of love so it's an ongoing cycle.

[Dracodraco]

How is it silly? You pay each month for this game. You should be able to play what you want while still being competitive, which isn't the case.
You are forced to reroll to stay competitive or just quit the game (eventually when you get benched), which I finally did after they first didn't fix SV and now Elemental Shaman seems to be in the same boat.

It's silly that there is such a big gap between specs and classes and that people pay for it and ask for changes, yet they never change it.

Your opinion of competitive, and Blizzard's opinion of competitive differs greatly. Nobody is sitting elemental shamans or survival hunters just because of their class for early mythics. You can play either spec at 7/9 mythic right now and still retain a raid spot just fine if you're a good enough player to warrant the raid spot. If you want to play pre-nerf content, you face the fact that pre nerf means things aren't going to be fair for everyone all the time, and whining about it is fine, but here's the kicker; BM is doing perfectly fine in pre-nerf content. If this was a thread whining about Elemental shamans or Surv hunters, I'd be perfectly fine with it, but when BM's are actively being recruited, brought to raids at the absolute top end, and PEOPLE WANT TO BRING THEM OVER MOST OTHER CLASSES, the whine gets fucking dumb to listen to. I don't give a shit how much you pay each month. If you're viable, you don't get to whine that you're not THE BEST.

[Yakibob]

When concerns arose pre legion over investing artifact power into weapons only to be forced to change specs (due to lack of spec/dps balance) and then start the grind on a different/better performing spec, blizzard told us that this will not happen in legion. They said they will not allow any spec to fall to the point that you would have to switch specs. This is clearly not the case so people DO have a right to be upset when they are told that in order to be competitive they should invest into another weapon and farm new legendaries.

[Dracodraco]

When concerns arose pre legion over investing artifact power into weapons only to be forced to change specs (due to lack of spec/dps balance) and then start the grind on a different/better performing spec, blizzard told us that this will not happen in legion. They said they will not allow any spec to fall to the point that you would have to switch specs. This is clearly not the case so people DO have a right to be upset when they are told that in order to be competitive they should invest into another weapon and farm new legendaries.

First off: BM is competitive right now. BM is being brought by absolutely every guild, no matter their rank, to the hardest encounters. What is your definition of "competitive"? For me, it's "strong enough to warrant a raid spot in any guild on any progress fight". I'd like to figure out why you think it isn't, and why you think you're "forced to switch". BM is in as good a state as it's always been, if not better, bar the end of NH (where it started to beat MM, which wasn't supposed to happen, AS PER your own logic).

Likewise, you're remembering what you want to remember. The thing you're quoting was said in reference to the *best* specs at the time - people were concerned that they'd need to farm AP in another spec after investing tons in what was (currently) the best DPS spec, because of random buffs and nerfs. As MM was the strongest spec initially, both in single target and AOE, they've managed to keep this promise fairly well for hunters (bar the DF build at the end of NH, after the mantle was released). MM was dominant in EN, TOV, initial NH, and now Tomb - but not enough so that BM isn't fully competitive (which is also true). If you've invested heavily into BM, you don't need to switch to MM to be competitive. If you want to be at the very tippy top, you should have been MM to start with. Nothing's changed.

[JoshuaNLG]

I've found there are a lot of fights in Tomb where being able to DPS on the move has been a HUGE benefit, due to strict timers and such overlapping with over mechanics at times, for that reason, I think BM is great as we're unhindered by movement completely, no other ranged spec can say that. Would i like it to pull better numbers? Yeah, of course i would, I think it does need some small tweaks, but I'm not going to lose sleep about it.

[Biomega]

First off: BM is competitive right now. BM is being brought by absolutely every guild, no matter their rank, to the hardest encounters. What is your definition of "competitive"? For me, it's "strong enough to warrant a raid spot in any guild on any progress fight"

While I agree in principle, keep in mind that much of that has to do with the fact that BM used to be amazing in NH, and as a result many hunters were highly invested in BM before ToS came around. In addition, BM movement meant that people had to spend less time mastering a fight with MM, at the cost of lower damage. Once the appropriate strategies were developed (like speccing Sidewinders for KJ), people realized MM could just be used instead and give them higher damage - which is what we are seeing right now. Also, I personally know of at least two high progression guilds that did make their hunters respec, I'm sure there are more out there that we are simply not aware of. And besides: being benched on fights is essentially the ULTIMATE expression of class performance. Things have to be VERY bad indeed either on the side of fight design or class performance if people are literally REFUSING to take certain classes. That has never been the measure of whether or not a class is fine, performance concerns start WAY before "sorry we're not taking you because you are BM".

Furthermore, the concerns people have about BM are as much about the current state as about the future, especially with the Crucible in mind. Scaling will be an increasing problem, and the time to address that is NOW and not after the fact when progression has already begun.

[Dracodraco]

While I agree in principle, keep in mind that much of that has to do with the fact that BM used to be amazing in NH, and as a result many hunters were highly invested in BM before ToS came around. In addition, BM movement meant that people had to spend less time mastering a fight with MM, at the cost of lower damage. Once the appropriate strategies were developed (like speccing Sidewinders for KJ), people realized MM could just be used instead and give them higher damage - which is what we are seeing right now. Also, I personally know of at least two high progression guilds that did make their hunters respec, I'm sure there are more out there that we are simply not aware of. And besides: being benched on fights is essentially the ULTIMATE expression of class performance. Things have to be VERY bad indeed either on the side of fight design or class performance if people are literally REFUSING to take certain classes. That has never been the measure of whether or not a class is fine, performance concerns start WAY before "sorry we're not taking you because you are BM".

Furthermore, the concerns people have about BM are as much about the current state as about the future, especially with the Crucible in mind. Scaling will be an increasing problem, and the time to address that is NOW and not after the fact when progression has already begun.

I don't put much weight in BM being good towards the end of NH skewing anything; MM was far superior before the mantle, so you had a few die-hard BM players that wouldn't change anyway, and a ton of MM hunters rerolling BM because of the new FOTM. If they did it once, they certainly can do it again, and expecting BM to somehow outclass MM after the initial statement is just silly.

As for the whole "BM movement meant that people had to spend less time mastering a fight with MM, at the cost of lower damage." part - that's sort of the point. There's tradeoffs between the specs, and that's totally fine. MM is more difficult to master on a progress fight, and certainly more taxing mobility wise than BM, so MM played optimally has a higher yield. It's a very simple concept but people keep going on about "NUH UUUH!!! MUH MOBILITIES SHOULDN'T AFFECT MY DEEPS COS GOOD MM HUNTERS DON'T GET AFFECTED BY MOBILITY EITHER!"; But the entire thing here is that it's just a lot quicker to learn and perfect BM than MM on any given fight. That SHOULD come with a tradeoff - in this case, less dps. It wouldn't be remotely fair otherwise, it'd just force MM hunters to go BM.

As for "making their hunters respec" - you mean specifically for KJ, right? Because there's no reason you'd want to specifically spec a hunter MM on Avatar. KJ, if adds are a problem (which they will be for most guilds), that's a case of MM having a toolkit that BM doesn't, making MM the better choice (spread AOE - something we haven't seen since Helya). That's got nothing to do with the general balance between the two specs, but rather the niches each of them fill. It's like saying "Yea, our mages were forced to go fire on Avatar because Ignite works much better than splitting ice for cleaving maiden, frost needs to be buffed to be competitive!". Doesn't make much sense, really; It's not a balance issue, it's a toolkit issue.

As for the last part - I wholeheartedly disagree with your statement. The only level where you playing MM or BM might even remotely matter, is the level where being benched on a fight due to class/spec is a concern. If being benched due to class/spec WASN'T a concern, there wouldn't be an issue, right?


I also don't mind concerns about BM's future - it's quite evident that MM is going to pull further ahead, and it's a valid concern to have. I play BM myself at the moment for the exact reasons that's been pointed out; It's simply easier to learn, and the dps it brings is competitive enough to warrant a spot on any mythic fight, so it's not like I wouldn't mind getting free buffs, but I think it's important that some people wake the fuck up and realise that we're playing *HUNTERS*, and you've got both specs available.
IF you choose to limit yourself, that means you don't get to play to all the strengths of your class, and that means you automatically forfeit any rights you might have to whine that either spec is doing better than yours. It was clear from the first week of Legion that MM was going to be stronger, and they made a promise to keep it that way. The fact that every pure DPS class have at least two raid viable specs that all have different strengths and weaknesses is nothing short of amazing, considering shamans, paladins and monks can't even get a fucking raidspot.

So TL;DR -
I don't mind if people want BM buffs, because 4% won't be enough to close the gap that WILL widen with the crucible. But I also think all of the people lobbying to have a fully mobile spec be buffed to be "equal" to MM needs to just fucking spend a few weeks farming MM legendaries, and then play MM instead. Two different specs, two different strengths and weaknesses.

[Mavick]

So TL;DR -
I don't mind if people want BM buffs, because 4% won't be enough to close the gap that WILL widen with the crucible. But I also think all of the people lobbying to have a fully mobile spec be buffed to be "equal" to MM needs to just fucking spend a few weeks farming MM legendaries, and then play MM instead. Two different specs, two different strengths and weaknesses.

Then there are those of us who have all the legendaries for all the specs, yet just don't get off watching aimed shot cast bars followed by a big crit while pretending to be superior playing a "harder spec". Most of your post was pretty solid, but definitely ended in a big fucking thud.

[Super Kami Dende]

Again, it's not about being top dps, it's about the gap between specs.

And BM isn't phenomenally easier to play than MM, or most other ranged specs. No ranged class is complex right now.

Complex? No.

Nowhere near as Braindead or free from any consequence as BM? Most of them.

[Mavick]

Complex? No.

Nowhere near as Braindead or free from any consequence as BM? Most of them.

Like these people, essentially.

[Razorice]

The reason BM is fine at the bottom is because its the easiest by FAR ranged dps in the game.

95% of the people who are going to be playing BM are extremely casual players who will feel like they're owning because at their skill level, BM is one of the better specs.

There is 0 movement penalty for BM, there is little to no skill required to play BM, why would BM ever be near the top?

While I agree that BM is easy, but so are other specs. Hell, Subtlety Rogue or Demonology Warlock or Feral Druid who are considered "hard" are easy to master. MM falls into same category. There are no "HARD" specs left to play.

[longal]

While I agree that BM is easy, but so are other specs. Hell, Subtlety Rogue or Demonology Warlock or Feral Druid who are considered "hard" are easy to master. MM falls into same category. There are no "HARD" specs left to play.

Except surv hunters... Try playing surv hunter and tell me it is easy...

[Sar-]

Boomkins have equal mobility to BM Hunters and are top damage in MT fights and good ST.

Boomkin has similar mobility to BM?

There speaks someone who has never played either spec in a raid, especially the turret-tastic Moonkin spec...

[Razorice]

Except surv hunters... Try playing surv hunter and tell me it is easy...

Tried, it's "annoying" but I wouldn't say it's hard. Obviously if it's a high movement fight it's impossibole to do amazing DPS

[Ladyoftheforest]

While I agree that BM is easy, but so are other specs. Hell, Subtlety Rogue or Demonology Warlock or Feral Druid who are considered "hard" are easy to master. MM falls into same category. There are no "HARD" specs left to play.

You are trying to categorize every class in the same BM-easy-spec bracket. I do agree that there are no real hard specs left, but some
classes including MM are easy to mess up, rendering them hard(er) to master due to certain (movement) limitations, timing, proc
dynamics, etc. It's fair to say that BM is probably one of the easiest specs to play. I've nothing against BM, but in my personal opinion,
any easy spec capable of doing permanent and consistent good damage while also being able to do mechanics and no limitations
to movement makes little sense. This is why there is an ongoing cycle of iterations that shifts balances towards other classes/specs
periodically. It's not like BM's don't have their times to shine.