Sylvanas, Alleria, Vereesa - Your predictions for the future

[anaxie]

So, Alliance is responsible for Arthas but blood elves "suffered the betrayal" of Kael'thas? Nice double standard here.

And by the way, if we continue the blaming game, both Arthas and Garithos were Lordaeronians. Lordaeronians are now Forsaken, so the people whos prince destroyed the homeland of blood elves and whos Grand Marshal wanted to execute loads of blood elves together with their prince are now part of the Horde, led by Sylvanas.

The blood elves took care of their problem

Arthas rampaged around destroying kingdoms because of his kingdom and uthers failure to stop him.

Uther trained him when the silverhand members said no way

And its kind of a big deal to mention HEY Sister

Almost everyone is dead

Those lordaerinians with garithos formed the scarlet crusade. And garithos was eaten because fuck him

Learn the lore pleb

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Yeah? And how did Garrosh treat everyone else who wasn't an Orc?

Oh but because they are your precious elves, they must have had it sooo bad they had no choice but to switch sides, right?

Lor'themar reiterates his past as a ranger, and why the sin'dorei are part of the modern Horde. However, coming under the same disregard and scrutiny on behalf of Garrosh as the blood elves had suffered under Garithos years before

After giving a speech about how Jaina's purge was inexcusable and her actions reaffirm his belief in supposed Alliance bigotry, and the fact they also had led the blood elves back to Hellscream's Horde to Rommath, Halduron and Aethas, Lor'themar concludes that Garrosh had bought his new treasure with the blood of Lor'themar's people, and hopes dearly that it destroys him

[Shampro]

The only ones he couldn't push into submition to be fodder were the Forsaken and it was because he shat his pants when he looked into Sylvanas' eyes. Garrosh didn't care about anything and I do agree that Lorthemar was pretty cowardly in that instance, but it's not like he had much of a choice I don't think he had the same ground to stand on as the Forsaken. Though in retrospec, it was shortsighted because Sylvanas wouldn't turn against her own homeland if Garrosh ordered it, he should have spoken up.

[Combatbutler]

Is baine the only good character to you?

Baine already preferred direct help from the Alliance, reclaiming thunderbluff would have been impossible without Jaina.

[anaxie]

The only ones he couldn't push into submition to be fodder were the Forsaken and it was because he shat his pants when he looked into Sylvanas' eyes. Garrosh didn't care about anything and I do agree that Lorthemar was pretty cowardly in that instance, but it's not like he had much of a choice I don't think he had the same ground to stand on as the Forsaken. Though in retrospec, it was shortsighted because Sylvanas wouldn't turn against her own homeland if Garrosh ordered it, he should have spoken up.

He wanted the forsaken to destroy themselves against the worgen. Sucks for him that sylvanas and the forsaken arent retards like that zugzug brute

[Combatbutler]

The only ones he couldn't push into submition to be fodder were the Forsaken and it was because he shat his pants when he looked into Sylvanas' eyes. Garrosh didn't care about anything and I do agree that Lorthemar was pretty cowardly in that instance, but it's not like he had much of a choice I don't think he had the same ground to stand on as the Forsaken. Though in retrospec, it was shortsighted because Sylvanas wouldn't turn against her own homeland if Garrosh ordered it, he should have spoken up.

Undercity was still crawling with Kor'kron at the time, there was no guarantee the forsaken would be able to easily get rid of them and so they were pretty much alone there and it wasn't certain who might side with Garrosh and who wouldn't, they all had people at stake under Garrosh direct reach after all, the horde factions simply didn't know were they stood which is why Garrosh could get as far as he did.

[Shampro]

He wanted the forsaken to destroy themselves against the worgen. Sucks for him that sylvanas and the forsaken arent retards like that zugzug brute

That's what I'm saying, the Forsaken were the only ones he couldn't throw away to use in his war, if Lor'themar spoke to Sylvanas, Garrosh wouldn't be able to do shit against him, afraid as he was of his retaliation. His first order of business shouldn't have reach out to the Alliance. Not like it matters, I don't even think everyone would be on board with that even pre Divine Bell.

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Undercity was still crawling with Kor'kron at the time, there was no guarantee the forsaken would be able to easily get rid of them and so they were pretty much alone there and it wasn't certain who might side with Garrosh and who wouldn't, they all had people at stake under Garrosh direct reach after all, the horde factions simply didn't know were they stood which is why Garrosh could get as far as he did.

Oh yeah I suppose the Kor'kron were a problem.

[Combatbutler]

That's what I'm saying, the Forsaken were the only ones he couldn't throw away to use in his war, if Lor'themar spoke to Sylvanas, Garrosh wouldn't be able to do shit against him, afraid as he was of his retaliation. His first order of business shouldn't have reach out to the Alliance. Not like it matters, I don't even think everyone would be on board with that even pre Divine Bell.

Varian was the one to initiate the talks though.

[Al Gorefiend]

Vol'jin wanted to leave momentarily too, is he a spoiled child in your eyes too? Is baine the only good character to you?

Leave =/= join the enemy and fight against your ex-friends and family.

Who exactly do you think the Blood Elves would have been fighting and killing had they joined the Alliance?

Oh, right, the Horde who saved them and helped to redeem them? Who let them in and gave them a new home and purpose.

Guess they can remain within the Horde, killing the Draenei who had also done the same for them.

And people wonder why I never balk away from my belief that the blood elves are the absolute most sinister Horde race.

Edit: Except Liadrin's Blood Knights, who are the only heroic redeeming members of the entire race.

The fact Lor'themar even considered it wasn't just a big fuck you to Garrosh, it was downright betrayal. He would have left the Trolls, Tauren, Goblins, Forsaken and Pandaren to fend for themselves or die to Garrosh.

[Combatbutler]

Leave =/= join the enemy and fight against your ex-friends and family.

You make these connections far stronger than they actually are, there was no real unity among the horde, the races did not trust each other. No one knew who was trustworthy, or who would turn on whom, this is the very foundation of Garrosh's power the horde races were divided and scared, they only came together due to a party that was supposed to be gone and as such couldn't really double cross them once it became clear they really had the majority on their side they struck.

By that logic the orcs are the most sinister horde race because they actually turned on their allies, on their own

[Andromedes]

Learn the lore pleb

That comes from someone who was wondering why stormwind didnt help quel thalas in the 3rd war

[Al Gorefiend]

You make these connections far stronger than they actually are, there was no real unity among the horde, the races did not trust each other. No one knew who was trustworthy, or who would turn on whom, this is the very foundation of Garrosh's power the horde races were divided and scared, they only came together due to a party that was supposed to be gone and as such couldn't really double cross them once it became clear they really had the majority on their side.

By that logic the orcs are the most sinister horde race because they actually turned on their allies, on their own

Comparing Garrosh and the Orcs who joined him, really no different than comparing Kael and the elves who joined him. Garrosh was a charismatic tyrant who easily persuaded Orcs because many orcs are dumb. The only way we'd really see Horde-aligned (I.E. not Kael's) Blood Elves in the same schism the Orcs were in, would have been if Lor'themar HAD betrayed the Horde, and then seeing how many Blood Elves opposed him as Orcs opposed Garrosh.

There was much unity within the Horde!? How the heckin' frig would Vol'jin had successfully deposed of Garrosh's tyranny if they weren't united? You say that like Garrosh caused a 7-way civil war within the Horde... It was Kor'kron vs. Horde. Garrosh's "New Horde" vs "True Horde". Vol'jin, Baine, Saurfang, Gallywix and Ji were still very much allies and blood brothers (well, maybe not Gallywix, but his short story showed he at least cared). They only waivered in opposing Garrosh because they all thought Vol'jin was dead.

[Combatbutler]

Comparing Garrosh and the Orcs who joined him, really no different than comparing Kael and the elves who joined him. Garrosh was a charismatic tyrant who easily persuaded Orcs because many orcs are dumb. The only way we'd really see Horde-aligned (I.E. not Kael's) Blood Elves in the same schism the Orcs were in, would have been if Lor'themar HAD betrayed the Horde, and then seeing how many Blood Elves opposed him as Orcs opposed Garrosh.

Well we actually saw something akin to this already, since the blood elves chose the Horde over their crownprince rebelling and fighting a civil war against him. Garrosh was the legitimate warchief of the horde and in the end many orcs chose to spit on their fellow horde members. Lor'themar was beside Gallywix the only horde leader that tried to get through to Garrosh and fix things.

Then we have of course Baine that chose the help of mercenaries, because he didn't trust the orcs, provided with the gold of an Alliance leader.

Vol'jin almost leaving due to the blatant betrayal of the horde and he was in talks as well but his talks ended because he had a change of heart, we don't actually know if Lor'themar would have gone through or even what that deal entails.

There was much unity within the Horde!? How the heckin' frig would Vol'jin had successfully deposed of Garrosh's tyranny if they weren't united? You say that like Garrosh caused a 7-way civil war within the Horde... It was Kor'kron vs. Horde. Garrosh's "New Horde" vs "True Horde". Vol'jin, Baine, Saurfang, Gallywix and Ji were still very much allies and blood brothers. They only waivered in opposing Garrosh because they all thought Vol'jin was dead.

How do you think Garrosh could stay that long in power? Because the horde races were divided and did not trust each other and why did that change? Because the supposed to be dead Vol'jin was able to move outside of Garrosh's little regime and got all of them together. Vol'jin created that unity

Gallywix made it very certain that he was in the pro Garrosh camp because there could be more money had, which changed at some unspecific time
Ji hardly knew anyone and still does not
Baine trusted an Alliance leader more than every other horde leader and went straight for help to Jaina

[Shampro]

I think Gallyxix changed when the Orcs didn't pay up at the end of the escavation of the heart:

Grizzle Gearslip says: Hey hey, what is this, huh? This is barely a fifth of the promised payment!

Grizzle Gearslip says: Yeah, we'll see who's got Garrosh's back when it counts.

[Al Gorefiend]

I think Gallyxix changed when the Orcs didn't pay up at the end of the escavation of the heart:

He wanted protection and growth, Garrosh treated Gobs like second-class citizens in his new Horde - at least they got invited in? Think he realized he wasn't getting a fair shtick following the new regime.

One things for sure - he didn't change his opinion to better the lives of the Bilgewater out of sympathy.

[Shampro]

He wanted protection and growth, Garrosh treated Gobs like second-class citizens in his new Horde - at least they got invited in? Think he realized he wasn't getting a fair shtick following the new regime.

One things for sure - he didn't change his opinion to better the lives of the Bilgewater out of sympathy.

Yeah I'm saying just thinking that was the last drop that tipped it over, and I wouldn't expect sympathy out of Gallyxix- that was probably the last instance in which he got tired of getting robbed.

[Al Gorefiend]

Well we actually saw something akin to this already, since the blood elves chose the Horde over their crownprince rebelling and fighting a civil war against him. Garrosh was the legitimate warchief of the horde and in the end many orcs chose to spit on their fellow horde members. Lor'themar was beside Gallywix the only horde leader that tried to get through to Garrosh and fix things.

Then we have of course Baine that chose the help of mercenaries, because he didn't trust the orcs, provided with the gold of an Alliance leader.

Vol'jin almost leaving due to the blatant betrayal of the horde and he was in talks as well but his talks ended because he had a change of heart, we don't actually know if Lor'themar would have gone through or even what that deal entails.


How do you think Garrosh could stay that long in power? Because the horde races were divided and did not trust each other and why did that change? Because the supposed to be dead Vol'jin was able to move outside of Garrosh's little regime and got all of them together. Vol'jin created that unity

Gallywix made it very certain that he was in the pro Garrosh camp because there could be more money had, which changed at some unspecific time
Ji hardly knew anyone and still does not
Baine trusted an Alliance leader more than every other horde leader and went straight for help to Jaina

I think this is worth discussing more. Had the Darkspear left, where would they have gone? They spit on the reunification back in Cataclysm, and the Alliance sure as hell wouldn't accept them. Had Vol'jin left, he would have effectively killed off the tribe or driven them into exile, and they'd be hunted down by the now unopposed Garrosh. Vol'jin's options were die, die, die some more, or unite the Horde and Alliance to liberate Ogrimmar. He just didn't have the manpower at the time and his tribe isn't exactly large at all.
The Tauren accepted help from the Alliance in saving TB. Because Garrosh couldn't be arsed. It was betrayal in Garrosh's eyes but everyone else saw reasoning behind it. I would consider Garrosh betraying the Tauren, refusal to send aid is, in fact, betrayal. But I think we all know by now Garrosh was the great hypocrite Warchief.

Point is, neither the Tauren or Trolls considered joining the Alliance, nor were they likely offered in the first place. Lor'themar was offered and actually came close to accepting! that's the pisser of it. His primary point for declining was the purge! Not the fact that he'd be giving a giant middle finger to his brethren, decking himself out in blue and gold leather and shooting at Tauren and Trolls had he accepted.

Lor'themar knew full well what joining the Alliance meant. It meant declaring war on the people who one year prior stood beside him in saving the world and protecting your people. Had Lor'themar had any honor or integrity his first reaction to Varian offering him a spot on the Alliance should have been either a.) "PISS OFF YOU RACIST BIGOT" or b.) "Only if everyone anti-Garrosh can come too!". But he didn't do this, because and only because HIS people got pissed on by the Silver Covenant. Ask yourself, "does Lor'themar truly give a shit about the Horde? Has he ever given a shit about the Horde?" I really think not, not one bit.

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Yeah I'm saying just thinking that was the last drop that tipped it over, and I wouldn't expect sympathy out of Gallyxix- that was probably the last instance in which he got tired of getting robbed.

Thing is I don't think Grizzle Gearslip is loyal to Gallywix, because -barely- any Goblin is. So Gearslip getting chumped shouldn't have anything to do with Gallywix. He was a Foreman, not under contract of Gallywix but under contract to Garrosh.

[Combatbutler]

Lor'themar knew full well what joining the Alliance meant. It meant declaring war on the people who one year prior stood beside him in saving the world and protecting your people. Had Lor'themar had any honor or integrity his first reaction to Varian offering him a spot on the Alliance should have been either a.) "PISS OFF YOU RACIST BIGOT" or b.) "Only if everyone anti-Garrosh can come too!". But he didn't do this, because and only because HIS people got pissed on by the Silver Covenant. Ask yourself, "does Lor'themar truly give a shit about the Horde? Has he ever given a shit about the Horde?" I really think not, not one bit.

Herein lies the problem the other races didn't have as many options and then there is of course the fact that the blood elves owed the horde in general pretty much nothing, quite the contrary the only people that responded in force to help them stem the tide against the burning legion in Quel'thalas were the draenei. The forsaken cashed in their chips demanding their help and they were called to battle again and again representing horde interests and then there was the joint operation against Zul'aman.

I think he does care for the horde, which is precisely why he stuck longer around Garrosh and tried to reason with him than pretty much anyone else, but at one point he simply considered it a lost cause, until Vol'jin showed back up that is.

[Skoll Shorties]

There is a future for the three. As far as Factions go I say Alleria will remain neutral while she learns what happened while she was gone and will learn why Sylvanas is the way she is. Sylvanas will remain Horde but will step down as Warchief. Vereesa will remain pretty much the same an Alliance lover.

[yetgdhfgh]

Iam gonna stick my neck out and say Sylvanas will most likely kill Turalyon forcing Alleria to fight her beloved sister.

Its so obvious and hackneyed that its almost guaranteed imo

Plus it would make sense cause i honestly dont see where blizz can go with Turyalon and we all know Arator isnt gonna have that happy family time he was promised.

At first imo Alleria will start to admire the Horde for its fight against the Legion and even drop her prejudices about them but when old Sylvanas inevitable kills Turyalon for some reason that will soon change.

Like i said thats my prediction anyway

[Zulkhan]

Maybe if we bit into the cow and sucked their blood to death you'd have a point. We kill them humanely.

Clearly you've never witnessed the inner workings of a slaughterhouse, otherwise you wouldn't even dare to say that.

The only ones he couldn't push into submition to be fodder were the Forsaken and it was because he shat his pants when he looked into Sylvanas' eyes.

The Forsaken had also the benefit of being rather far away on the other side of the continent anyway. Despite the close proximity and grown military power, Garrosh didn't dare to make a move against the Darkspear until Vol'jin wasn't taken out of the picture. He didn't even feel comfortable in having them around during the Pandaria campaign.

Baine already preferred direct help from the Alliance, reclaiming thunderbluff would have been impossible without Jaina.

To be fair, he didn't really "prefer it" but was rather left without any choice, much like Lor'themar. Garrosh's guilty inaction made impossible to determine if he was in league with Magatha or not.

Leave =/= join the enemy and fight against your ex-friends and family.

Vol'jin wouldn't have joined the Alliance but would have joined the Zandalari. And the Zandalari, much like the rest of the troll tribes, are definitely not friends of either Horde and Alliance. I mean, take a look at what Vol'jin ponders about at the very beginning of the novel:

The Azeroth the Zandalari had known had been utterly and irrevocably changed. Portals had been opened. New peoples had come through. Lands had been shattered, races warped, and more power released than the Zandalari knew existed. (...) The Zandalari hungered to reestablish rule over a world that had so changed that their dreams could never come true.

Vol’jin caught himself. “Never” be a powerful word.

In an eyeblink the vision shifted. He now stood at the pyramid’s apex, looking down into the faces of the Darkspears. His Darkspears. They trusted his knowledge of the world. If he told them they could recapture the glory that was once theirs, they would follow him. If he commanded them to take Stranglethorn or Durotar, they would. The Darkspears would boil out of the islands, subjugating all in their path, simply because he wished it done.

He could do it. He could see a way. He’d had Thrall’s ear, and the orc had trusted him in military matters. He could spend the months of recuperation plotting out the campaigns and organizing strategies. Within a year or two of his return from Pandaria—if that was still where he was—the Darkspear banner would be anointed with blood and more feared than it already was.

In the novel he literally ponders about the fact that, if he really wanted to, Vol'jin and his Darkspear could have exploited all the intel regarding Durotar to spearhead a Zandalari invasion of the place, with consequent destruction of the Horde, then doing the same with the Alliance once the Horde was dealt with.

Yes, Vol'jin had his doubts and eventually had a change of heart. But it took him the whole novel to eventually make the decision that brought us to the 5.3, until then this other "alternative" kept hanging in his mind.