Columbus Day = Indiginous Peoples Day

[Ivanstone]

Romans knew how to write ( even on their buildings)

you know, books can be written to prove your national mythology, but not such massive buildings like romans STILL have all across the gone empire.

I think you're mistaken. I choose to believe that ancient Americans crossed the Atlantic, built those structures, decided that working with stone was a pain in the ass and then moved back home. Also because of the falling of Atlantis. Also because Bison is much tastier. The Romans moved into these structures later and then wrote shit on them. Especially with their cumbersome numerical system. That's why the Gauls killed all of them. They didn't have a better idea for numbers they just knew the Romans sucked at them.

I suppose I should consult the wealth of archaeological evidence that points to the Roman's existence and their accomplishments but that's written in books and stuff and they could be lying. Kinda like how some people think that Columbus wasn't a dick and didn't have his history altered to make him look like a paragon of virtue worthy of being taught in elementary school.

[Zecora]

I think you're mistaken. I choose to believe that ancient Americans crossed the Atlantic, built those structures, decided that working with stone was a pain in the ass and then moved back home. Also because of the falling of Atlantis. Also because Bison is much tastier. The Romans moved into these structures later and then wrote shit on them. Especially with their cumbersome numerical system. That's why the Gauls killed all of them. They didn't have a better idea for numbers they just knew the Romans sucked at them.

I suppose I should consult the wealth of archaeological evidence that points to the Roman's existence and their accomplishments but that's written in books and stuff and they could be lying. Kinda like how some people think that Columbus wasn't a dick and didn't have his history altered to make him look like a paragon of virtue worthy of being taught in elementary school.

....

You sir, just won the internet!

[ThrashMetalFtw]

But that is also wrong Columbus wasn't the one who discovered America, pretty much everything our generation read about him from history books was science fiction.

How did he not discover America? Leif Eriksons expedition didn't bring their knowledge back to the old world, and until Columbus returned to Europe after his first trip to America, its existance was not known by Europeans.

Also, whenever we are talking about "discovering America", we obviously mean "discovered from a European point of view", so don't try to bring up some stupid arguement like "the natives already knew about it".

[Lorgar Aurelian]

you do realize his show is a lot of bullshit right?

that doesn't change the fact that Columbus never went to north america.

[Draco-Onis]

How did he not discover America? Leif Eriksons expedition didn't bring their knowledge back to the old world, and until Columbus returned to Europe after his first trip to America, its existance was not known by Europeans.

Also, whenever we are talking about "discovering America", we obviously mean "discovered from a European point of view", so don't try to bring up some stupid arguement like "the natives already knew about it".

Columbus never made it to America, he kept getting lost and landed in South America which he mistook for "the new world".

[Zecora]

How did he not discover America? Leif Eriksons expedition didn't bring their knowledge back to the old world, and until Columbus returned to Europe after his first trip to America, its existance was not known by Europeans.

It wasn't after, either. Because Colombus never set foot in the Americas (just the caribbean islands, where he and his men proceeded to rape, murder and enslave the Taino so efficiently that they were extinct a century later), and because he believed he'd reached India.

Leiv Eirikson meanwhile, DID report that he reaced new land. Sadly (or fortunately) that knowledge was lost after they gave up their settlement.

All of this however, is irrelevant since the Americas were discovered some 12-18 000 years previously by the Natives. Ergo, THAT is the discovery that should be celebrated, if any.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

How did he not discover America? Leif Eriksons expedition didn't bring their knowledge back to the old world, and until Columbus returned to Europe after his first trip to America, its existance was not known by Europeans.

Also, whenever we are talking about "discovering America", we obviously mean "discovered from a European point of view", so don't try to bring up some stupid arguement like "the natives already knew about it".

columbus never set foot on north america.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.0751c36f38cb

[Ivanstone]

How did he not discover America?

Giovanni Caboto discovered America. Columbus discovered a place where American's go on vacation.

[Spectral]

Okay, education time:

First off, the Rennaissance started in the 14th century, NOT the 1200 or 1300's.

Snipping this here because it's pretty funny.

When, exactly, do you think the 1300s were? Do you know how fucking ignorant you sound when you say "14th century, NOT the ... 1300's"? Pretty ignorant stupid is the answer. Those are synonymous.

Maybe you shouldn't be in the business of giving lessons about why dirt mounds are actually just as impressive as these structures. I guess they did have copper and bright fabrics though. I'm duly impressed.

- - - Updated - - -

The U.S. Constitution is a thing that shouldn't be celebrated? Without the influence of the Iroquois Confederacy, the U.S. Constitution might not be the document it is today. That's enough reason by itself.

Furthermore, its about celebrating culture. You don't have to participate, you just have to acknowledge that your fellow citizens might wish to remember that the actual history of the United States. The history of First Nations and the United States is complicated but there are positive elements to go along with the bad. Its not about shaming white people. If you feel that someone is attempting to shame you maybe its all just in your head. I certainly don't feel any shame.

This is simply a reversion of the 1984esque Memory Hole. We're retrieving the actual history and not the false history created to lionize a monstrous human being.

What, exactly, do you think the evidence is that the Iroquois Confederacy was substantially influential to the writing and development of the Constitution? As near as I can tell, it's very thin, doesn't really have any textual basis, and is mostly a fig leaf that's been used to acknowledge that Europeans were dicks to natives.

To the rest - of course my fellow citizens have every right to celebrate their heritage. They should celebrate it. I heartily endorse tradition, history, and heritage. I just also think modern American governments shifting to Indigenous People's Day is about as obvious an example of pandering as you can get. Do you really think non-Native Americans tend to give much of a shit about this? I'm highly skeptical. They certainly care about being perceived as On The Right Side of History though.

[Zecora]

Snipping this here because it's pretty funny.

When, exactly, do you think the 1300s were? Do you know how fucking ignorant you sound when you say "14th century, NOT the ... 1300's"? Pretty ignorant stupid is the answer. Those are synonymous.

Writing mistake, the correct sentence should have been "14th century, not the 12th or 13th." I'll correct the original post. The point still stands, as Cahokia was abandoned a century before the Renessance began.

Maybe you shouldn't be in the business of giving lessons about why dirt mounds are actually just as impressive as these structures. I guess they did have copper and bright fabrics though. I'm duly impressed.

You're one of those people who look at the pyramids and go "What, it's just a heap of stones", aren't you...

Well, I guess being ignorant of history is your right. Sad how people like you get taught that Colombus was a hero (which is a lie) and learn nothing about the pre-colombian civilizations.

[Ivanstone]

I guess they did have copper and bright fabrics though. I'm duly impressed.

First Nations didn't have proper access to draft animals. They made do with what they had. Fun fact: The Moche people smelted Platinum a full millennia before Europeans. They didn't use it for anything significant besides decoration and religious purposes but they did use it.

They weren't stupid, their knowledge base was simply different. Knowledge builds upon itself and missing a few key links is significant.

What, exactly, do you think the evidence is that the Iroquois Confederacy was substantially influential to the writing and development of the Constitution?

It was the largest participatory democracy in the world at the time. It was big enough that Reagan's senate made a resolution of it. Why deny it?

[Spectral]

Writing mistake, the correct sentence should have been "14th century, not the 12th or 13th." I'll correct the original post. The point still stands, as Cahokia was abandoned a century before the Renessance began.

You're one of those people who look at the pyramids and go "What, it's just a heap of stones", aren't you...

Well, I guess being ignorant of history is your right. Sad how people like you get taught that Colombus was a hero (which is a lie) and learn nothing about the pre-colombian civilizations.

The point will remain terrible - this is ultimately a difference without distinction. I was using the Renaissance as a general watchpoint and the exact year doesn't matter. We can flashback a millennium and look at Rome and be much more impressed with Roman civilization than anything that was constructed a thousand years on over the pond. To be fair, they did pretty well for people that couldn't quite get around to figuring out a keystone, but ultimately a large dirt mound capped just isn't going to stack up to the Colosseum or Parthenon unless you're really dedicated to a certain viewpoint.

You'd have to try real hard to find somewhere I express any admiration for Columbus.

I do give you credit for using a fair bit of knowledge and cleverness in trying to prop up a viewpoint that's so absurd on its face though. It's not easy going to war with bows and knives when your opponent brings guns and steel.

[Plutarch78]

Change it all you want...it will always be Columbus Day for me and many others.

[Spectral]

First Nations didn't have proper access to draft animals. They made do with what they had. Fun fact: The Moche people smelted Platinum a full millennia before Europeans. They didn't use it for anything significant besides decoration and religious purposes but they did use it.

They weren't stupid, their knowledge base was simply different. Knowledge builds upon itself and missing a few key links is significant.

Sure, of course they weren't stupid. Humans have mostly been smart enough to mostly do all of the things in modernity for tens of thousands of years. Thinking otherwise would be absurd. Prehistoric peoples that maintain hunter-gatherer societies aren't stupid - they do what they need to do to maintain life given the conditions. If I were put in the same position, I'd be laughably useless immediately. If left to my own devices I'd just die.

It was the largest participatory democracy in the world at the time. It was big enough that Reagan's senate made a resolution of it. Why deny it?

The history on this is pretty spotty, which is why I tried to be somewhat specific in my question. What do you think is the best evidence for Iroquois influence on the development of the Constitution? I'm not being snarky (at least not entirely). Give me a book that you read and found compelling and I'll read it. Everything I've seen thus far amounts to, "obscure professor that doesn't really do history said so" or a Congressional resolution that's not worth the paper it's written on.

[Elba]

Change it all you want...it will always be Columbus Day for me and many others.

Yeah, but you'll be dead one day and future generations will, thanks to courageous actions like this, see Columbus for the dip shit he was.

I am hopeful for the future.

[Plutarch78]

Yeah, but you'll be dead one day and future generations will, thanks to courageous actions like this, see Columbus for the dip shit he was.

I am hopeful for the future.

So will you, but before you do people like me will pass on traditions to their future kin and teach them that idiots like you are to be mocked.

[Elba]

So will you, but before you do people like me will pass on traditions to their future kin and teach them that idiots like you are to be mocked.

What traditions? Whitewashing history and revering genocidal monsters? Doesn't seem all that desirable to me.

[Plutarch78]

What traditions? Whitewashing history and revering genocidal monsters? Doesn't seem all that desirable to me.

I frankly don't care what you feel is undesirable.

[Elba]

I frankly don't care what you feel is undesirable.

Which is your right. If you wanna lie to your children about history and or have them think genocide is a desirable trait then go right ahead.

[ArguesWithStrangers]

The day indigenous people showed they we completely outclassed. I didn't think people liked celebrating losses.

Being a loser is pretty much the only thing the left is interested in celebrating these days.