Ric Flair recovering after hospitalization for organ failure

[moremana]

If there can be legendary actors, there can be legendary wrestlers.

Except actors dont play roles that insinuate real life. So yeah. There can be legendary actors, hell Ric Flair could be one.

[the game]

Except actors dont play roles that insinuate real life. .

Neither do wrestlers.

[AndyF1069]

One of the biggest draws of the 70s and 80's you mean a dying profession that was on life support until Vince came along and took over the territories and he and Hulk built a brand in part do to the fact Ric Flair wasn't getting the job done if as you say it was all on him.

I didn't say what it said about those that didn't like Flair my point is despite what they might have said now or do because of the current circumstances, the truth is Flair was hated both in his time and through the years and it wasn't because he was a draw.

Most of what has been said is he is a no talented, back stabbing, two faced ass kisser, who often tried to befriend guys in the back while at the same time burying others who were better or drew better than him

Flair wasn't an Elite all the people you mentioned he is in the same league either had a Charisma that transcended wrestling or they could actually work Flair could do neither.

This has turned from "I have a question please give an answer" to "This is my opinion and you are wrong if you disagree".

One of the biggest draws of the 70s and 80's you mean a dying profession that was on life support until Vince came along and took over the territories and he and Hulk built a brand in part do to the fact Ric Flair wasn't getting the job done if as you say it was all on him.

Wrestling wasn't anywhere close to dying, just like it isn't dying right now just because ratings are at record lows. Vince didn't save the business from death, Vince made it mainstream. He made it PG and turned it into a family friendly event. He took all the biggest stars of each territory into his territory. If the business was dying then these stars wouldn't have existed. These changes is what allowed the New York territory to expand nationwide. If Wrestlemania had bombed, wrestling wouldn't have died. To also claim that Ric is the only star of the 70s and 80s is an insult to the likes of the Briscos, Bily Graham, Harly Race, Dusty Rhodes, Ricky Steamboat, Piper, The Bulldogs and so many more.

I didn't say what it said about those that didn't like Flair my point is despite what they might have said now or do because of the current circumstances, the truth is Flair was hated both in his time and through the years and it wasn't because he was a draw.

I have no idea what the first half of your sentence means. You seem to be making wild claims out of nowhere. Who hated Flair? Don't you dare respond with something like "it's well known" without actually providing a source or a name either. I already demonstrated the counter to your claim with the talk of the respect given to Ric during his retirement. If I cared enough (I don't) I could pull up interviews on youtube of the likes of Shawn Michaels, Triple H, Vince McMahon, Dusty, Race, Taker, the Andersons, Austin and more. A mix of old and new superstars. If you're going to make wild claims, at least be able to add a source.

Most of what has been said is he is a no talented, back stabbing, two faced ass kisser, who often tried to befriend guys in the back while at the same time burying others who were better or drew better than him

I think I worked it out. You watched a Scott Steiner promo during WcW, right?

Flair wasn't an Elite all the people you mentioned he is in the same league either had a Charisma that transcended wrestling or they could actually work Flair could do neither.

Every name I listed above seem to disagree with you. The fact he was inducted TWICE into the WWE Hall of Fame also seems to go against your claim. But hey, I'm sure you know better.

[Allybeboba]

My favorite part is when he walks out and tells the fans...
"When I am out here talking you people need to SHUT UP!"

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hA0MTkHLO0g

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He IS the limousine ridin, jet flyin, kiss stealin. wheelin' dealin', 16 time world champion, son of a gun


Q
WOOOOOOOOOO!

Don't forget Rolex wearin', diamond ring wearin'
Having a hard time holding these alligators down...

He definitely is/was pure entertainment in his heyday.

[the game]

This has turned from "I have a question please give an answer" to "This is my opinion and you are wrong if you disagree".

Reading this, this is exactly what I was thinking. Just another person thinking "Personal opinion = Fact".

To be fair he also said in another thread that he used to find chris farley funny until somebody told him why he wasn't funny. So now it's a fact in his eyes that chris farley isn't funny. I can't decide if he's just a major debby downer or just a troll.

[the game]

I think a bit of both.
I mean, I don;t like Flair, never have, never will, always thought he was dull, chubby and acted like an annoying tit, BUT, he *is* a legend in the industry, for all his accomplishments. I suspect the poster is someone who watched a couple of WWE DVDs and decided that he now knows all and everything about wrestling.
I mean, arguing that he was backstabbing in the 70s...newsflash *every* wrestler was like that. When you are in an industry where your spot can go to the next big or bright thing in a heartbeat and you only get paid if you work and draw? Well...of *course* people are going to try and stack the pool in their favour. Practicaly every famous wrestler from the 70s and 80s was a backstabbing shit. it was part of the industry, heck, even went into the late 90s, and still goes on today to an extent.

Just a guy showing his lack of knowledge of the industry tbh.

Most people in the industry are always talking about how Hogan was in the lockerroom. Hell even John Cena today keeps burying upcoming talent because he refuses to lose to them. Yet everyone calls Cena a legend. Politics are part of the business. The only one I've not heard lockerroom stories about (though I'm sure there are some) is Undertaker. Everyone talks all the time how he was a leader in the locker room. Also the late Dusty Rhodes. So many young upcoming stars have benefitted from Dusty Rhode's help.

[yetgdhfgh]

God speed in your recovery Ric Flair i remember you back in the day

Also you are right about the amountof WWE Legends we have lost like Macho man Randy Savage, Ultimate Warrior, Jake the Snake, Roddy Piper

[Zogarth]

Good that the guy is recovering. Can't say I really know anything about him except his name being slightly familiar, but good on him for not dying.

[yetgdhfgh]

Wait...what? Jake the Snake? He is dead?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jake_Roberts

Nope, still alive. Looks like DDP did a charm on him.

I honestly thought i heard he died a few years ago but then i thought million dollar man died too until i googled him.

[Raunchy]

Without question hes a legend lol

[pateuvasiliu]

You forgot about taking whoever the space mountain

People besides Flair

Legends

Hulk Hogan
Roddy Piper (Also didn't like, but he was the best heel ever)
Vince McMahon (Don't like him but this crazy evil POS, actually built an empire out of what used to be considered a joke)
Bruno Sammartino
Killer Kowalski (Trainer)
Stu Hart (Trainer)
Bret Hart ( One of my favorite technical wrestlers)
The Undertaker

Shawn Michaels (I don't like him either but he put his literal body on the line every time)
Stone Cold (He was probably 2nd next to Hogan, Punching Iron Mike put WWE through the fucking stratosphere)
The Rock
Brock Lesnar
CM Punk
John Cena (Yeah I know I would probably get shit for this, but until recently I had heard he like to help work with up and coming talent)
he also was a good will ambassador and personally has some record for granting Make A Wish's for kids, and kids love him and he literally infused the new life blood the WWE needed. for better or in his case as many say WORSE!


I am sure there are a bunch I am not putting I should but each of those people contributed something to wrestling more than using it to become famous, each of the person up there made a contribution.


Ric Flair has been around a long time and in terms of theater he was a great showman, but at the end of the day wrestling did as much or more for him than he did for it or the fans.

He didn't train anybody because he couldn't I think as Bret has pointed out he has like 5 moves total Back Chops, Eye Gouge, Trick Knee, Figure Four, and WOO!

He is a man, he worked all his life and that is admirable, but he also has a long history of a lot of people who have said he fucked them over and that isn't at all just in the past.

Good he is doing better no wish ill on the dude, but as some have said it and I agree, he also had a fair share to do with holding the spot light away from a lot of guys.

CM Punk's no legend. Sorry, he took his ball and left, then talked shit about the company/employees.

He was good, great even, but he's no legend.

And Cena is definitely deserving of being up there. He may not have Hogan's charisma, the Rock's mic work or Shawn Michael's talent for wrestling, but he's a nice combination of all 3.

[MechaCThun]

"To be the man, you gotta beat the man."
- Ric Flair

Clearly, the Grim Reaper isn't the man.

Long live THE NAITCH!

[Doctor Amadeus]

To be fair he also said in another thread that he used to find chris farley funny until somebody told him why he wasn't funny. So now it's a fact in his eyes that chris farley isn't funny. I can't decide if he's just a major debby downer or just a troll.

OH dear god get the fuck over it, this isn't a blog, and Chris Farley wasn't funny, the fact I can back my opinion up with reason and you can't other than finger pointing and saying see everybody agrees.

No not everybody agrees, and people being nice or saying things about Ric Flair because of recent events doesn't change the fact that numerous shoots, have been done where people have shown respect for the man, they have also gone on record saying he was a backstabber and brown noser and not too much of a friend to the boys backstage so to speak.

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CM Punk's no legend. Sorry, he took his ball and left, then talked shit about the company/employees.

He was good, great even, but he's no legend.

And Cena is definitely deserving of being up there. He may not have Hogan's charisma, the Rock's mic work or Shawn Michael's talent for wrestling, but he's a nice combination of all 3.

Eh I was iffy on CM Punk you are right you have a point I simply mentioned him not because I like him or hate him like Flair, I am looking at his over all impact and he did bring people in to WWE who really hated the so called PG Era.

You are also correct he took his ball and went home so to speak, but so did Stone Cold, but you still can deny Stone Colds contributions to bringing attendance to an all new level and almost single handedly bringing WWE through to over taking WCW in the Monday Night Wars along with Bret, The Undertaker, Shawn Michaels, The Rock and HHH somewhat (D-X)

And unlike CM Punk, Stone Cold did a no show which to my understanding CM Punk didn't he simply walked away.


I agree again on Cena say what people will and NO I don't want and when I have seen his Character I didn't GET IT, but boy did those kids show up in droves keeping WWE profitable and successful into its "PG ERA" and ever aging fan base.

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God speed in your recovery Ric Flair i remember you back in the day

Also you are right about the amountof WWE Legends we have lost like Macho man Randy Savage, Ultimate Warrior, Jake the Snake, Roddy Piper

Jake the Snake isn't fucking dead!

[Doctor Amadeus]

Except pretty much for every famous wrestler from the 70s and early 80s you can say this about. From Jesse Ventura and Dusty Rhodes, to even Bruno Sammartino and Freddy Blasse. It was the nature of the industry then,. You had to protect your spot else you lost your entire livelihood. Not sure you are still quite understanding this, as it is churlish to criticise someone for doing basically what they needed to do to survive in the industry at this time.

Your *legend* list, is also quite WWE-centric, so it is honestly hard to take you seriously as anyone even vaguely knowledgable about Pro Wrestling and its history and personalities when you include such wonders as CM Punk and Brock Lesnar as *legends* of the sport.

Yeah, Ok being protective of his spot, but even when it wasn't his spot, ok so maybe those in competition with him alright, professional jealousy or what not, but there are people that had no professional animosity towards him or anything else who call him a POS and I am not talking about Scott Steiner, although I think he is and was one of the few not willing to beat around the bush, Scott Steiner is also an idiotic juice head, but he is kind of too stupid to lie about this.

Well I could say

Verne Gagne
Greg Gagne
Bill Watts
Road Warriors
Jerry Lawler
Jim Cornette
Sabu
The Steiners
Scott Hall
Kevin Sullivan
Macho Man (I Forgot him)
Ron Simmons
Mick Foley
Jerry Lynn
Jake the Snake


I mean there are some greats, but in terms of Legends it's like getting a 10, nobody gets a 10 right, and if you do get a 10 it should be rare. I would say Legend would be reserved for those who's profiles actually upped the game contributed not only to and by their own talents but raised everyone else's as well while having an impact felt by those who may not even have followed their career or wrestling.


Personally I am glad when people say things like that person shouldn't be on that list, or this person should especially when they can say why.

Otherwise the word doesn't mean anything, because this is a vote make no mistake.


I wouldn't put Ric Flair on the Legends list but then again there are lots of people who would disagree, all I would ask is WHY?

Based on more than just liking them. I know we are talking about wrestling but still, what qualifies as a LEGEND, not just great but LEGEND?

[AndyF1069]

Jesus Christ, do you suffer from selective reading?

Yeah, Ok being protective of his spot, but even when it wasn't his spot, ok so maybe those in competition with him alright, professional jealousy or what not, but there are people that had no professional animosity towards him or anything else who call him a POS

Once again you've failed to list names or sources.

I mean there are some greats, but in terms of Legends it's like getting a 10, nobody gets a 10 right, and if you do get a 10 it should be rare. I would say Legend would be reserved for those who's profiles actually upped the game contributed not only to and by their own talents but raised everyone else's as well while having an impact felt by those who may not even have followed their career or wrestling.

Ric did every single one of the things you suggested.

Personally I am glad when people say things like that person shouldn't be on that list, or this person should especially when they can say why.

You are literally the only person who is saying it.

I wouldn't put Ric Flair on the Legends list but then again there are lots of people who would disagree, all I would ask is WHY?

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post47190304

[Deleted]

You forgot about taking whoever the space mountain

People besides Flair

Legends

Hulk Hogan
Roddy Piper (Also didn't like, but he was the best heel ever)
Vince McMahon (Don't like him but this crazy evil POS, actually built an empire out of what used to be considered a joke)
Bruno Sammartino
Killer Kowalski (Trainer)
Stu Hart (Trainer)
Bret Hart ( One of my favorite technical wrestlers)
The Undertaker

Shawn Michaels (I don't like him either but he put his literal body on the line every time)
Stone Cold (He was probably 2nd next to Hogan, Punching Iron Mike put WWE through the fucking stratosphere)
The Rock
Brock Lesnar
CM Punk
John Cena (Yeah I know I would probably get shit for this, but until recently I had heard he like to help work with up and coming talent)

Sting....you're forgetting Sting.

And Triple H

[Kuntantee]

Since this thread is dedicated to Naitch, here's my favourite promo in wrestling ever




I link it everywhere I can, it's just amazing

People watch this shit?

[Doctor Amadeus]

You just lost any and all credibility right there and then stating those. Neither is in any way shape or form over Ric Flair in terms of ability. And the Road Warriors? You are criticising Flair for his inability to wrestle, then utilise them? They couldn't sell. They were even told during training their ability to sell was so poor, they shouldn't bother so instead they should just make themselves seem invulnerable. They also were pretty average on the mic, and if you look at them in terms of in-ring ability and mic skills, they were just *meh*. They just hit right place, right time, but you are putting them above Flair?
Also, Scott Hall, one of the Clique, the most notorious backstabbing, backstage politicking, manipulating for their spot groups in the history of wrestling, along with his inability to even work at times due to alcohol issues, and an average in-ring skillset, yet above Flair?
And Ron Simmons? The guy was only vaguely famous in the APA or for some BS catchphrase during the PG Era, with average in-ring ability at best, and no real promo strength either?

I mean...it is genuinely hard to take this whole post seriously, so I won't.


The main point i am making is that you are criticising Flair for doing things that were *wrong* in your mind, but then nominating people who were just as bad if not worse, and had half the success if they were lucky. I mean, I personally don;t like Flair, never have, never will, he doesn't have that *it* factor for me, doesn't grab me, and I find him irritiating to the point of turning the TV over, and the guy just WON'T FUCKING RETIRE!

However, I do acknowledge his contributions, and also that the guy is a living legend in the industry, it is hard to define what makes one, but he is. I suspect you are just letting your dislike for the guy get in the way of seeing his accomplishments for what they are, I understand it, heck, it is hard for me to even give a damn about the guy, but he is an absolute legend in the industry whether we like it or not.

First off I made a list of people I could have named but didn't and while I disagree with you and your reasons on some the entire point is that the word Legend being thrown around is meaningless without being able to honestly say why.

I am not saying your opinion isn't valid even if I disagree with your reasons, however I am not calling Ric Flair a Legend because I like him or dislike him, nor would I put the body of his work down, but just because recent events happened with his health I wouldn't call him a Legend if i called anybody in wrestling one.


Top of that List would be Hogan, and I hate Hogan.

[Doctor Amadeus]

I understand what you mean, defining a legend is truly difficult

I hope it always is and never by one person or even a group for the wrong reasons, otherwise it means nothing not only to those that have achieved that status but anyone who ever hopes to.

but for my personal explanation, it is in terms of influence long term, how many wrestlers or fans they inspired, their ability to draw at the top level, and for the length of time they did so.

I don't agree with length of time being much of a factor, because I think some people can do in a short time what some accomplish in a longer period of time, taking away nothing from either, but that is fair what you said at least you gave a real reason.

Ignore politics, personality and such, and Flair had 20 World Championships. Now achieving that means you took a *lot* of money and drew big crowds. His work as a heel was incredible, people truly hated him, and that work elevated any Faces he also worked with (Dusty being one of them) to incredible money drawing levels. The main had being a bad guy down to an art, his mannerisms, the way he moved in the ring, how he worked with others, and just how he could make you despise him.

And when you pointed this out as others have, even I rethought it just to be sure, I am not pegging Ric Flair out of personal bias, or based on the bias of those who are jealous. Or in the Case of Scott Steiner who I would say is credible in spite of himself, Scott also has his fair share of critics. But I also go by what others contemporaries have said about Ric Flair at different times, both things they said one way or another, and these are people that like or LOVE Flair, that is what I am basing it on, and many might even call him a Legend, or maybe they wouldn't sometimes people will only carry being so nice so far.

In terms of Ric's actual work see what you said does sway me, because like Roddy I think being a Heel especially back then was hard, because you had to have Charisma and Style so I can see your point.

Now where my criticisms fall apart and feel free to pick them apart, because as I said, I just wanted reasons, and I think it's fair that someone else is asked to expose themselves to criticism I have to give the same Opportunity.

My initial reason for questioning Legend is because I have a difficult time quantifying that, because obviously there are some entertaining as fuck great wrestlers I probably would say I like and liked that might not be a Legend.

When I think Legend it is as I said, someone who by their mere presence contributed not by themselves for themselves, they also contributed to other people either directly or indirectly and I am talking in a real measurable way.

I don't like Hogan NOW, but I have to admit his impact has been huge, and he can't fucking wrestle either LOL! I think he has less moves than Ric Flair and that saying something.

ALso, the sheer amount of wrestlers he influenced, is unbelievable, nearly every wrestler today will admit they drew a little from his work style and promotion, to full on outright homage to his character and persona (Bobby "Glorious" Roode), so it is hard to my mind, to argue that he is anything but a legend. You will be hard pressed to find anyone who has had the sheer volume of influence on the sport as Flair has had.

Yeah, I get that again another fair amount of points. I really can't argue away from any of that.

Interesting you mention Hogan, the man is possibly the most despised man in wrestling, only achieved a handful of world titles, had zero in-ring ability and was more limited than Flair in that regard, his promos were the only thing that really stood out about him, and they paled in some terms to Flairs earlier work. Yet you consider him a legend? Why? He basically got lucky by getting a spot in Rocky 3, and they milked it from there, had that not happened, the whole "Rock'N'Wrestling" thing doubtfully would have happened, and he would just be another hasbeen.
As I said, and you are correct it is hard to define, but in terms of sheer contribution and the long term effects he has had on the business, he deserves that title alone to my mind

Yeah all damn fair and reasonable points, but one things you will have to admit if you put Flair and Hogan side by side to anyone around the world who do you think would be recognized first?

And You are right that had a lot to do promotion and as much as people hate Vince that was HIM. Although I think if in the present day you put Stone Cold, Hulk, and Cena I am sure both could give Hogan a run for his money or even eclipse him.


I would say The Rock, but I am not going to compare him because I think over the years he is less associated with wrestling than he ever has been, no knock on him but I wouldn't think it would be fair to put any of the previous up against him as recognizable, and even though The Rock would WIN, I would even hesitate to call him a Legend if Legend could be had at all.

I mean he is great, but what has he done for wrestling? I am not saying NOTHING, but the fact is he isn't really there anymore.

So yeah it is a tough call, sure as hell isn't one I could or should be making but, I just wondered what was meant by calling Ric Flair legend, and now I know by you. Which is just as valid. As my opinion.

But one thing I think we can both Agree on is that Legend shouldn't be a title throw around lightly if it's to mean anything.

[AndyF1069]

So you still can't produce any names of people who have knocked Flair, say that length of time shouldn't be a contributing factor to if someone is a legend or not, then say The Rock can't be considered a legend despite being the #2 name in the sport at the biggest burst of popularity in the history of the business and who after 13 years away from being a full timer is still known as "The Rock", former wrestler.