So how much has attendance collapsed?

[DevilsAdvocate]

We were realm 2nd and have had to cut 1 or 2 days a week now due to attendance issues.

Blizzard really burned people out and the fact they basically reset the grind on professions and the game with Argus makes recruitment even hard as older players quit and newer players don't have any legendaries or AP.

Sure they can catch up, but they have to play a lot per Legion game design.

Pretty sure the guild will just fall apart in a few weeks. What can you do?

[Queen of Hamsters]

The raiding scene on my server seems as active as ever.

If your raiders quit over new progression on professions (not a reset), it was probably long in the making.

And time spent in-game grows by the quarter, so "what you can do about it" is either recruit more, or join a guild that isn't falling apart. This held true for every iteration of the game, FYI.

AP catchup is extremely potent, "new players" not "having AP" is bullshit. Concordance is easy to reach, and going beyond that is made easier with every week as new AK is added automatically.

New players not having Legendaries is not a problem, they'll get them by playing the game through bad-luck protection. Will they have a pile of leggos to choose from off the bat like players having stuck with Legion since the start? Probably not, but that's the price of playing an MMORPG where someone's always going to be more progressed. "They have to play a lot" sounds pretty funny, considering they willingly signed up for an MMORPG in the first place, not a single-player game... If they got the drive to raid, they got the drive to progress their characters to an acceptable level.

[mauserr]

The raiding scene on my server seems as active as ever.

If your raiders quit over new progression on professions (not a reset), it was probably long in the making.

And time spent in-game grows by the quarter, so "what you can do about it" is either recruit more, or join a guild that isn't falling apart. This held true for every iteration of the game, FYI.

AP catchup is extremely potent, "new players" not "having AP" is bullshit. Concordance is easy to reach, and going beyond that is made easier with every week as new AK is added automatically.

New players not having Legendaries is not a problem, they'll get them by playing the game through bad-luck protection. Will they have a pile of leggos to choose from off the bat like players having stuck with Legion since the start? Probably not, but that's the price of playing an MMORPG where someone's always going to be more progressed. "They have to play a lot" sounds pretty funny, considering they willingly signed up for an MMORPG in the first place, not a single-player game... If they got the drive to raid, they got the drive to progress their characters to an acceptable level.

You don't fucking get it, do you? It's not a matter of not having ANY legendaries, but a matter of not having THE BEST ones for output.

[Marrilaife]

Unsub and wait for them to stop gating everything behind legendaries like they've done for the past 3 expansions.

Or forget about mythic that Blizzard seems to care to balance around 50 world top guilds at best and go back to farming piss easy content for titanforges, I heard casuals are quite happy and viciously defend the stance "there's nothing wrong with titanforge" so you know, can't beat them, join them.

And for that you don't need bis class, bis spec or bis legendary, neither you need a topped off artifact.

Mythic raiding currently... well I thought nothing can be worse than TOV / Nighthold in guild killing, apparently they managed to double themselves up. Argus patch is out and TOS has been out for 2,5 months and only 35 guilds in the world finished it by now... I think we reached the point below vanilla Naxx in the top end participation. The "0.01%" is not even a joke any more.

P.S. If you're serious about your guild, keep checking what other guilds are disbanding around and be quick to grab their players who still want to play. That's how survival of the fittest works in this area, no sentiments and all.

[Queen of Hamsters]

You don't fucking get it, do you? It's not a matter of not having ANY legendaries, but a matter of not having THE BEST ones for output.

Most raiders don't play at levels where they can be considered useless through not having THE BEST legendaries though. I get it just fine, people love to impose limitations upon themselves and hugely inflate the requirements for the level at which they raid.

If many guilds clear Mythic whilst the content is current: "Boo raids are too easy raiding has no requirements anymore boo".
If progress is slower in Mythic content; "Boo guild killer content let's just adopt a defeatist attitude and pout in Heroic despite there being months left of the current raid!!"...

[Socialhealer]

Unsub and wait for them to stop gating everything behind legendaries like they've done for the past 3 expansions.

ye i remember that method archimonde world first with 20 legendary rings....oh wait they had zero.

[Cheze]

the best of the best raids never really benched people on account of having the wrong legendaries; that shit is the domain of guilds that raid 20 hours a week and fancy themselves 'hardcore,' but aren't really very good.

it is completely possible to parse in the 70-80th percentile (and realistically, probably higher) with whatever legendaries you have on hand, which is more than enough to kill any mythic boss

[Sticky]

None at all. We've had some absentee people due to some school starting and what not but our guild is just as strong as ever.

[Marrilaife]

the best of the best raids never really benched people on account of having the wrong legendaries; that shit is the domain of guilds that raid 20 hours a week and fancy themselves 'hardcore,' but aren't really very good.

it is completely possible to parse in the 70-80th percentile (and realistically, probably higher) with whatever legendaries you have on hand, which is more than enough to kill any mythic boss

As long as you play a fotm class... I checked all the guilds who killed mythic KJ (I keep checking as new guilds kill him).
There are zero kills with no guardian druids, all have at least one, vast majority have 2.
There are usually only 1-2 dps that aren't a fotm class (rogue, mage, hunter, boomkin, warrior, warlock).
I don't think I've seen a kill without holy paladin either, but that doesn't surprise anyone anymore.

I eagerly await the day when I can honestly say "yes, you can kill mythic KJ with a balanced roster of skilled players of any class", but so far that's something that is a lie. Mythic Gul'dan had his favourities (not too many ranged, druid / monk tanks etc.) but KJ just beat him by the head.

If progress is slower in Mythic content; "Boo guild killer content let's just adopt a defeatist attitude and pout in Heroic despite there being months left of the current raid!!"...

There is probably 2 months more left, give or take. I personally think a healthy aim would be to tune the raid around 1000-2000 guilds finishing it, maybe a bigger number for the last tier of the expansion (because it lasts longer), but we aren't in Antorus yet.

Now what can happen in TOS is either: they nerf it super harshly in the coming 2 months (kinda lame if you have to nerf the boss so much it becomes something completely different from its previous iteration, feels like not the same boss anymore), or they nerf it just a bit and the number won't be anywhere close to what I usually see in the other tiers, which means the content was literally developed for a handful of a handful of players.

I think it was tuned too high - personal opinion and all, but a well tuned end boss would have 200-400 guilds kill it mid-tier breakpoint and 1000-2000 guilds kill it by the end of the tier. That assures it's exclusive enough yet it's not wasted dev's time for barely any audience.

EDIT: Why this number? Well I thought let's say WOW has 5 mil subscribers. 1% out of that is 50k players, if each mythic guild has 25 players on the roster (including bench), that makes around 2000 guilds mark the "top 1% playerbase" cutoff. Ofc you can argue that WOW has more / less than 5 mil subs (no one knows anymore) or that even less than 1% of playerbase "deserves" to see the end content. That's why I say - subjective point of view.

Also any boss that requires heavy class stacking even after a couple of months is complete shite, it could be fine to class stack by a world first guild attempting the boss behind on gear and traits but even after months of gearing up, no alternative comps are showing up. This is sad and disturbing.

[Deleted]

the best of the best raids never really benched people on account of having the wrong legendaries; that shit is the domain of guilds that raid 20 hours a week and fancy themselves 'hardcore,' but aren't really very good.

it is completely possible to parse in the 70-80th percentile (and realistically, probably higher) with whatever legendaries you have on hand, which is more than enough to kill any mythic boss

yea maybe if you play the bosses 2months after said guilds did.
gl doing for example augur prenerf with "whatever legendaries you have on hand" and "parsing 70-80th percentile"

the thing is most very good guilds didnt really bench people for having bad legendaries but they did rather let them reroll another class IF they had lootluck on an alt - still 90%+ of benchsituations are setup related anyhow

[Bloodmagix]

That sucks for you man, I've been in 3 guilds that have all died out during Legion. Two due to roster issues.

It's not so much the hard content that's causing people to quit raiding/playing, but rather lack of reward for doing the content. Not talking about mounts or title or whatever, that's irrelevant to me anyway, but killing Mythic bosses for 930 pieces while lower difficulties can yield better gear is just stupid. Make warforging have a limit or something, it's a lot easier to run Heroic tomb in an hour each week and get lucky with some warforges then to progress Mythic content for hours with your guild for potentially no real gain. Makes me personally not so driven for Mythic anyway, I'll still raid though because it's what I enjoy most in the game.

[Dagoroth]

I'm the GM of our guild on Emerald Dream, horde side, and I can tell you outs definitely been a challenge to keep the team full. We were practicing mechanics late last night on mythic sisters with only nineteen.

The rate at which played just burn out is so high it's insane. They'll just stop showing after a month.

And the weirdest part is that, at least with my guild, it seems most likely to happen when we're making strides and actually downing done challenging content, not during a lull.

Sent from my LG-H918 using Tapatalk

[Ebalina]

I'm the GM of our guild on Emerald Dream, horde side, and I can tell you outs definitely been a challenge to keep the team full. We were practicing mechanics late last night on mythic sisters with only nineteen.

The rate at which played just burn out is so high it's insane. They'll just stop showing after a month.

And the weirdest part is that, at least with my guild, it seems most likely to happen when we're making strides and actually downing done challenging content, not during a lull.

Sent from my LG-H918 using Tapatalk

The thing is if you are still on sisters atm you are not doing that great and your raiders are average at best.
Why am i saying this, i am not trying to bash or trash talk any one here but there many great players stuck in guilds who think they are suited for mythic content while the majority of their player base isn't.

I've been running a guild tackling end game content since mid ulduar and it took me a very long while to realize that attachments to players only makes your guild stagnate.
There is a great thing when a valued player performs and he is always there and does his job to the fullest potential, but for the most part guilds that are running in the top 100 very rarely have more then 5-10 people that are the same from tier to tier.
The turn over of players this expansion has been bigger then any beforehand and many guilds suffer from that because they are tackling content with the wrong type of players.

I had to overhowl half of my roster each tier preaty much because of player burn-out drop of performance or flat out them been shitters for one reason or another.

And i think you if you want to run a successful to some extend mythic raiding team should do the same.
That is just an advice and i know people play for diffrent reasons but believe me when i say guilds like yours will never be able to tackle bosses like Avatar or KJ if they don't make some drastic changes even in their current nerfed state.

There many guilds dying in the top 100 as well many players there also are not suited and have been going on just by on their old merits refusing to drop out of the team for some sort of false obligation and leaving room for fresh new blood to flow in.

[therealstegblob]

You don't fucking get it, do you? It's not a matter of not having ANY legendaries, but a matter of not having THE BEST ones for output.

Rorcanna is pretty much the local rabid fanboy. Don't listen to him.

[Progenitor Aquarius]

I'm not amazed people are leaving. I'm considering this myself as well. Since the community is toxic, I was forced to turn off whispers completely, except guild and friends. I play this game since 2008 and it wasn't always like that. I had nice laugh everyday as far as I remember Lich King raids. Makes me wonder what worsened community? Wow tokens? In fact game is technically for free, wchich would attract riffraff, by pushing the decent people away. It's also summer, why people would sit in front of computer 24/7 and farm artifact power. I wouldn't say farming artifact power is bad, it gives chance for people who put effort but aren't that skilled to actually raid high content. Mythic challenges are also a great idea. It makes an opportunity for those players to improve their class. Maybe demons and miserable souroundings 2nd expansion is a little bit too much. I loved the part when Trial of Style or Kirin Tor Tavern Crawl got released, a fun relaxing break from raiding.

[rda]

As long as you play a fotm class... I checked all the guilds who killed mythic KJ (I keep checking as new guilds kill him).
There are zero kills with no guardian druids, all have at least one, vast majority have 2.
There are usually only 1-2 dps that aren't a fotm class (rogue, mage, hunter, boomkin, warrior, warlock).
I don't think I've seen a kill without holy paladin either, but that doesn't surprise anyone anymore.

This might actually be more a product of the participation collapsing rather than bad balance (although I am not qualified to judge).

Less people participating -> less variety and plain less effing desire to effing experiment, you just want to get any kills at all while you have people so you go with bog standard (and fail plenty even with that and that detracts you even more from experimenting, you just cannot afford wasting time on this) -> all kills are copycats of each other, no variety in approaches to fights, poor interest in general. The collapse is self-reinforcing in that way.

[Cheze]

yea maybe if you play the bosses 2months after said guilds did.
gl doing for example augur prenerf with "whatever legendaries you have on hand" and "parsing 70-80th percentile"

the thing is most very good guilds didnt really bench people for having bad legendaries but they did rather let them reroll another class IF they had lootluck on an alt - still 90%+ of benchsituations are setup related anyhow

okay, but that wasn't the point, was it? Previous poster was talking about benching people for having the wrong legendaries, which didn't really happen early on and happens even less now (as the bad ones have been brought to near-parity in most cases)

in any case attrition happens over the course of every expansion

[Sencha]

Unsub and wait for them to stop gating everything behind legendaries like they've done for the past 3 expansions.

This. Legendaries should have been extremely rare to the point that they are not "required".

Currently they are so common that people are not even happy when they are not getting the best ones.

[kamuimac]

You don't fucking get it, do you? It's not a matter of not having ANY legendaries, but a matter of not having THE BEST ones for output.

and its only your problem if you recruit only people with BiS - if you dont have good enough recruits just lower your standards or accept that your guild is not attracitve enough to attract such people.

- - - Updated - - -

Currently they are so common that people are not even happy when they are not getting the best ones.

strange - whenever one pop up in guild im in chat there are always at least 5+ people interested in what dropped for whom and gz them . seems like your guild issue

[Tradu]

Most raiders don't play at levels where they can be considered useless through not having THE BEST legendaries though. I get it just fine, people love to impose limitations upon themselves and hugely inflate the requirements for the level at which they raid.

If many guilds clear Mythic whilst the content is current: "Boo raids are too easy raiding has no requirements anymore boo".
If progress is slower in Mythic content; "Boo guild killer content let's just adopt a defeatist attitude and pout in Heroic despite there being months left of the current raid!!"...

It's not fun to perform worse just because you're unlucky with legendaries.

- - - Updated - - -

the best of the best raids never really benched people on account of having the wrong legendaries; that shit is the domain of guilds that raid 20 hours a week and fancy themselves 'hardcore,' but aren't really very good.

it is completely possible to parse in the 70-80th percentile (and realistically, probably higher) with whatever legendaries you have on hand, which is more than enough to kill any mythic boss

70th-80th percentile just means you didn't die if you're a decent player. And "enough" DPS doesn't exist.