How many of you are really disappointed by ToS?

[Woobels]

We're way past the point where the mechanics limits what classes you can play, there are far too many alliance priests who have killed it, including myself, to say that you are limited.

I do agree that the fight was bad, its fairly okay post nerf, but still annoying.

I can find 4 Alliance priests, 3 of which in the same Russian guild, only counting first kills.

Maybe Wowprogress is slow or I can't count for shit though, that doesn't seem like that many though.

[jivagon]

Mythic Goroth: 5/10, horrible first boss, only there do suck time for your raid, huge room for only 3 soaks
Mythic Inquisition: 6/10, idiot new mythic mechanic
Mythic Harjatan: 8/10, quite fun for a third boss, got some DPS check and nice RNG with eggs
Mythic Sister: 3/10 annoying, just that, lot of bugs, if you change specs before boss starts you get immunity from glaives but cant change when you get moon burn.
Mythic Desolate: 1/10, a nice fight in heroic and a retarded one in mythic, its all about tanks
Mythic Mistress: 4/10 unecessary hard boss, when you put maiden next on the list
Mythic Maiden: 4/10, its not even a DPS check on mythic, its annoying that a weak auras do all the mechanics for you.
Avatar: 6/10 didnt killed yet, progressing through 3 maiden shield right now, so far, with the nerfs a interesting fight but still a no-fun boss when you got bad-rng (and oh boy, this will happen almost every try)

[Progenitor Aquarius]

I am positive about the raid. Most fun part when I enter the portal leading to the ship with Khadgar and Illidan, glorious! Some bosses are really hard, which is kinda annoying but overall the raid is good.

[glowpipe]

All raids in legion have been lackluster. We got more to do in the expansion. but the raids suffer for it. Guess we need a balance point. Less micro holiday, pet battle crap and dance/transmog shit and more into raids wouldn't hurt

[Daten-shi]

Blizzard seems to have less and less imagination for boss mechanics. 5 out of 9 bosses involve soaking mechanics. It's very frustrating especially for players who play classes that can't soak. It's not because they want to soak or something, but those players just don't get invited to raids.

[Temp name]

Mythic Desolate: 1/10, a nice fight in heroic and a retarded one in mythic, its all about tanks

How can you like it on heroic but not mythic? It's literally the same fight

[Loosecannon]

I actually quite like the raid, although I think that other than KJ it's maybe a little undertuned on Heroic. Having done all bosses on heroic, but only attempted Goroth on mythic a few times (yes I'm a filthy casual), my thoughts are:

Goroth - Too easy on normal/hc, but a nice idea for an opening fight. More interesting I thought on mythic (particularly as a tank with overlaps etc)

DI - The first couple of weeks pugging this was a bit of a nightmare, once people worked out what to do it was kind of fine, don't particularly like the fight though, feels like the room where you go to clear your torment is missing something, like you should have to kill the add or something over the whole raid.

Harjatan - Kind of Meh, thought this would be a much more interesting fight to tank when they were going to have the add which buffs him (is it still there but just weak?) and combine swapping that with Bleeds/Frontal AoE. Looks like it would be a fun fight on mythic with a nice throughput check IMO, but it seems a lot just facerolled it.

Mistress - Actually quite like the idea for this fight, although I think it's undertuned on Heroic/Normal - perhaps I've always been lucky enough to run it with good players so it seems this way.

Sisters - Pretty similar comment to Mistress to be honest, like the idea, and the whole moving floor concept is cool. From what I've read sounds like a nice co-ordination check in mythic.

Desolate Host - Did this on Normal tanking the upstairs for the first time and my thought was 'jesus, is this fight just 5 minutes of trash and then like 90s of runin/run out boss'. Did it on Heroic and it was a bit better, still a little boring though. Have heard that it isn't much better in mythic.

Maiden - I really like this fight. I think what was missing in normal/heroic was a decent throughput check, the barrier seems to break pretty easily on both settings, so being 'good' at guitar hero isn't necessarily required (again this might just be because I've run with good groups). Reminded me a lot of Thaddeus. Have heard it's quite a good fight on mythic too.

Avatar - Probably one of my favourite fights in the instance to tank - decent pressure on moving the maiden etc and keeping dps up on the boss and then the dps race downstairs is quite a good vibe. Really liked it. Especially when I first tanked it heroic in week 1 in a pug whilst a bit undergeared. We wiped a lot, but finally killed it just as he shattered the last platform. Have heard it's a brutal fight on M - which I feel it should be given it's placing.

KJ - Normal I thought was really boring, seemed like not a lot happened for most of the fight, especially once you got used to dealing with felclaws. Heroic was a bit more involved, especially in last phase. I thought the darkness phase was pretty irritating to be honest. I think the mythic strat of moving him to the edge right before was quite cool though. The main thing I will say for KJ is that I don't think he's undertuned, and it's a pretty good check if anyone in your raid is a bit rubbish! I'll never fight it on mythic (at least not this expansion) so the fact that Mythic tuning is ridiculous doesn't really impact me

In all, I really like the encounter design, but I think that a few of them are a bit undertuned for the gear which I had when I did it (aside from week 1 Avatar).

[Deleted]

How can you like it on heroic but not mythic? It's literally the same fight

tbh I don't think he killed anything at all and just writes his numbers. I mean, the reason for Goroth....room too big for 3 soaks...I mean what? That mechanic is nowhere near hard and every garbage guild get's that boss down

[theburned]

I can find 4 Alliance priests, 3 of which in the same Russian guild, only counting first kills.

Maybe Wowprogress is slow or I can't count for shit though, that doesn't seem like that many though.

Guess its just 5, then again there is only 6 alliance guilds.
You didnt count me, as I was druid on first kill in SB. And the 2 next guilds killed it just as the nerf happened.
But the fight is easy enough as disc (intermission healing is a bit meh) but I found little reason that a priest is not viable at this point.

[risingforce]

Things I liked about ToS:
+ Mistress Sassz'ine - crazy in a good way.
+ The moon floor concept for Sisters
+ The spirit/corporeal concept for Desolate Host
+ Fallen Avatar - the whole fight was good.

Things I wish they'd done better in ToS:
∆ Harj is a loot piñata
∆ The bosses in Sisters fight lack something... Somehow fight doesn't live up to setting.
∆ The Desolate Host deserves a new model, not a recolor of Marrowgar.
∆ The KJ fight could have been so much more. The ship isn't like other Legion ships - apparently it's a big surf board? With no interior? No real interaction with twisting nether - surely they could have done something with that. Like having KJ, who travels it regularly, pull something from the nether to threaten us. Illidan can see through the darkness... but we're the ones who have to find him? KJ, the great mastermind of the Legion, assaults us with his claws? I always imagined him to be this fel Moriarty, who'd destroy us with his brilliant tactics, rather than clawing at us.

I never really considered what a disappointing fight KJ was but after reading your comments and the consensus here, yeah, what a sadly missed opportunity! I wonder what was sucking away at Blizzard's resources at the time; surely Blizzard themselves must've wanted to do more than they delivered with KJ.

[Woobels]

Guess its just 5, then again there is only 6 alliance guilds.
You didnt count me, as I was druid on first kill in SB. And the 2 next guilds killed it just as the nerf happened.
But the fight is easy enough as disc (intermission healing is a bit meh) but I found little reason that a priest is not viable at this point.

I mean I don't disagree with you but class balance on this fight in particular is pretty garbage.

[Icecat]

I never really considered what a disappointing fight KJ was but after reading your comments and the consensus here, yeah, what a sadly missed opportunity! I wonder what was sucking away at Blizzard's resources at the time; surely Blizzard themselves must've wanted to do more than they delivered with KJ.

Yeah, I agree with most of that quote as well, but I actually did like the KJ fight thematically. Maybe hype was too strong because it was KJ? I don't mind there not being a secret Mythic phase because it's not an endboss but Gul'dan did kind of set that precedent. I wonder if maybe the Darkness phase could have substituted for a Mythic only mechanic or the team thought it was either too cool of an idea or too central to the fight for it to be exclusive. It would have been cool if KJ pulled out some kind of weapon of his own. Maybe daggers? I assume it crossed the team's mind at some point. Now that I think about it, it's fucking weird that he didn't have a weapon.

I like KJ mostly just because I think the Darkness phase is fucking awesome. It could have been a lot more, but like... that's literally the mantra of WoW. I agree with most people in that Fallen Avatar was awesome throughout. That might be the strongest boss of the raid for me.

As for the other bosses, I remember liking them for their simplicity when the raid was released, but upon reflection I think most of them are really weak design wise. At least it's easy to pug, I guess. Tomb is probably one of the weaker mid patch raids in the game's history, but it was neat set up for things to come. I haven't seen any screenshots of Antorus (sort of a purist when it comes to raids), but I'm hoping it isn't too similar to Tomb. I really liked Nighthold but I hope it isn't the best raid of the expansion. I'm of the opinion that the best raid should always be the final one. It just rounds everything out nicely, and Blizzard has a pretty good track record of delivering on that in my opinion.

EDIT: A peeve of mine is the unstable bomb things (forget the name) on the Maiden fight. They're really fucking weird and clunky. Like the bomb icon is bizarre and hard to track, jumping into the pit is intuitive and doesn't really make sense, the way it knocks you around is never quite the same. Don't fault Blizz for this either but being colorblind really did not help me on that fight when things ever went sour. Even DBM as a crutch helped way less than you'd think.

[Deleted]

EN was fun, then it all went south. NH was a crapfest and this one is the worst one i've raided through. Not even sure i wanna know how terribly unfun the last one's gonna be....

[Temp name]

tbh I don't think he killed anything at all and just writes his numbers. I mean, the reason for Goroth....room too big for 3 soaks...I mean what? That mechanic is nowhere near hard and every garbage guild get's that boss down

Especially when the soaks are as big as they are. They're fairly easy to see, and are always relatively in the middle.

I actually quite like the raid, although I think that other than KJ it's maybe a little undertuned on Heroic. Having done all bosses on heroic, but only attempted Goroth on mythic a few times (yes I'm a filthy casual), my thoughts are:

That would explain why you like it. It's way better on heroic than on mythic

[Mamercus]

I would really prefer it if they would focus on a smaller number of interesting/challenging mechanics and individual skill callouts rather than vomiting tons and tons and tons of mechanics for most mythic bosses. Long fights that have easy phase 1/2s are also dull as hell to progress on. NH was much more fun than ToS if only because of Mistress.

I would prefer more tight enrage timer bosses with fewer mechanics that pushed people to play their classes better rather than just checking for ball-and-pool dodging skills constantly.

[Jastall]

That would explain why you like it. It's way better on heroic than on mythic

Yeah, on Heroic it's a fun raid. It's on Mythic that it is bad, pretty much all the new mechanics are annoying as fuck. I remember having fun when progressing from Heroic to Mythic in BRF, HFC and Nighthold. In Tomb Mythic is just plain unfun apart from Harjatan.

[iamthedevil]

Tomb is kind of a bummer. I much preferred Nighthold.

[Gib Lover]

Tomb is kind of a bummer. I much preferred Nighthold.

Agreed. I had 2 or 3 friends of mine that were top dps in our guild straight quit the game because they don't like Tomb and don't want to do it night after night as the current content. Nighthold was a much better raid.

[Mamercus]

Tomb is kind of a bummer. I much preferred Nighthold.

Nighthold had a better theme, better plot buildup, and more visually interesting mechanics overall. None of the ToS bosses had any buildup with maybe the exception of KJ, but even KJ didn't really have any buildup specific to Legion. Killing Gul'dan was really thrilling and the fight was really intense visually.

The only fight I can think of with good visuals is Avatar. KJ also looks cool, but the actual fight is boredom punctuated by soak-or-die.

I can see why they wanted a 'visually diverse' theme for ToS so it wouldn't be all-fel-all-the-time, but where they really screwed up is that it makes no sense as a dungeon and not even in the old-school-D&D type of way. You fight two demons and then a bunch of other random bosses: girl night elf ghosts, a snake elf woman, a ghost skeleton with his elf ghost friends, and a football player murloc.

[Ericdaroude]

tos sucks donkeyballs

Want ULDUAR, the best designed raid ever, best concept of hardmode and introduced the first hardmode only secret boss