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  1. #361
    Quote Originally Posted by MeHMeH View Post
    Just like you determine the value of anything, the resources you use and the time you put into it. Why would this be any different?
    There really aren't that many differences between capitalism and marxist socialism other then then who owns the means of production. It is not that private property will be completely abolished for everything, you still get to keep your clothes, your bike or car or a home or any of that stuff, it is just that the means of production will not be allowed to be in private hands.

    It would do more to the mindset of companies, it wouldn't be all about profit anymore. It would be about staying relevant, making sure that the company survives and survives in a way that doesn't fuck over the environment that we have to live in.
    You want the company that you work in (and therefore own a piece of) to pollute the very place you are living, were a company now would be likely to cut corners to be more profitable, it would now make sure that you and your kids can safely live close to it.
    You want the company that you work in (and therefore own a piece of) not to relocate in order to become more profitable, as when it moves you won't work there anymore. So you want your company to stay relevant.
    And last but not least, the company will be able to make stuff at cost, there is no real need to make more money then you need to keep everything working. You want to be paid fairly for your work, but, you do not want it to become so expensive that no body will buy it. But there is no need to make additional money of the product that goes straight to the owners of the company as it does now.

    - - - Updated - - -



    That is not how things work, when the state owns the means of production and acts as a capitalist then we call that state capitalism. It is still capitalism but it is done by the state.
    No, you are denying the definition of words. You can't just make up new definitions, and then the realities that the words represent change. Communism is 0-38 in bringing people less poverty. Communism is 0-38 for creating a society that people actually want to live in, and are allowed to flee if they don't. Communism is 0-38 in producing a stable economy. This is a disgusting and vile ideology, that needs to be stomped out where ever it rears it's ugly head.

  2. #362
    Quote Originally Posted by Elba View Post
    The end of the exploitation of the workers.
    so instead of a business so called "exploiting the worker" the government will under communism
    at least the so called "exploited worker" under capitalism can quite his job and become his own boss cant do that under communism

  3. #363
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracullus View Post
    I live in Poland. My country (and most in this region) suffered both from Nazi Germany and communist. Almost everyone here have people in family that were brutally murdered by nazi or communist (sometimes both).

    You are troll that doesn't know what he is talking about. You should crawl under a rock and never come back.

    For anyone here that isn't a troll and genuine think that communism wasn't so bad, I suggest to read two books (...for the start):

    "The Gulag Archipelago" by Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
    "A World Apart: The Journal of a Gulag Survivor" by Gustaw Herling-Grudziński
    Anyone who thinks Communism is good, can't read a children's book, much less the two you recommend. These kids didn't grow up with Communism. They look at China, and think it works, not knowing that adopting pseudo Capitalism, in some industries, is the very thing leading to China's new found economic growth, and out of the mass starvation that defined much of their existence under Communism.

  4. #364
    Quote Originally Posted by Elba View Post
    The end of the exploitation of the workers.
    Then there is nothing to protect the individual from anything. No government, no court, nothing.

  5. #365
    Quote Originally Posted by Vyxn View Post
    so instead of a business so called "exploiting the worker" the government will under communism
    at least the so called "exploited worker" under capitalism can quite his job and become his own boss cant do that under communism
    Yeah, you can quit and starve or die of diseases or go homeless. As seen in America. Go capitalism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Linkedblade View Post
    Then there is nothing to protect the individual from anything. No government, no court, nothing.
    Protection from who?

  6. #366
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    It's easy to manipulate numbers, and since that number seems like a stretch it's worth looking into deeper. The majority of that 100M number they claim is from only 1 book, who claims 65M killed by China. The catch being that the Chinese didn't really keep records on that so it's a wild guess. Also, when you look into that number he's counting deaths from starvation and people that died while in Chinese prisons. That's where numbers can get distorted since the details are subjective.

    Do we say that capitalism kills X millions of people a year by the pollution from manufacturing leading to breathing diseases or cancer, or count the people who work and die from heart attack or stroke from stress? Or count the people that die early from malnutrition in the US from poverty? You could count the people in US prisons who die even just of old age as murdered. Wars get even trickier. Do we count the hundreds of thousands of troops Stalin sent to Stalingrad's defense against the Germans without weapons who were basically cannon fodder as murdered? You can start to get really creative. We could count the Native Americans killed by settlers as being murdered by capitalism. Same for US troops that were ordered to observe nuclear tests in the 50's that later got cancer.

    More reliable numbers seem to be less than half that 100M in Mao's and Stalin's purges. Still terrible and a big number. But the number using the same subjectivity for socialism or capitalism wouldn't be zero.

    I'd also argue that China and the Soviet Union are/were much closer to totalitarianism than communism. Communism is no class or formal state structure and common ownership, and China isn't and the Soviet Union wasn't that. Jack Ma who started Alibaba is worth $31B and there are many other super-wealthy people in China. China is basically capitalist with a totalitarian government that has ultimate authority to take property if needed. So China's system is usually referred more accurately to as Authoritarian Capitalism.

  7. #367
    Quote Originally Posted by Vyxn View Post
    what the fuck?
    how in the hell do you contribute wars that the US were involved in to capitalism?
    Please tell me you are kidding me. The US is the most advanced capitalist country. So wars, coups, atomic bombs that killed millions of people are not considered crimes of capitalist regimes?

    You keep saying ''communism'' is evil cause it killed 90-140 million people, and I reply to you capitalism in the last 200 years killed more than that if you combine all the crimes that have happened under capitalist states. Don't ask me for source I already gave you plenty of examples on my previous post.

    Its in the nature of capitalism, invading other countries for imperialist reasons, exploiting natural resources, expanding business control of international companies and enforcing exploitation to countries that resist the capitalist production relations. So if you want to judge an ideological-economical system try a different freaking point than communism killed X amount of people because that is a tragic irony.

  8. #368
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracullus View Post
    I live in Poland. My country (and most in this region) suffered both from Nazi Germany and communist. Almost everyone here have people in family that were brutally murdered by nazi or communist (sometimes both).

    You are troll that doesn't know what he is talking about. You should crawl under a rock and never come back.

    For anyone here that isn't a troll and genuine think that communism wasn't so bad, I suggest to read two books (...for the start):

    "The Gulag Archipelago" by Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
    "A World Apart: The Journal of a Gulag Survivor" by Gustaw Herling-Grudziński
    I have only read the first one and agree on that one, but I recall that 'One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich' by Solzhenitsyn was a gentler introduction.

  9. #369
    Quote Originally Posted by Karsius View Post
    Please tell me you are kidding me. The US is the most advanced capitalist country. So wars, coups, atomic bombs that killed millions of people are not considered crimes of capitalist regimes?

    You keep saying ''communism'' is evil cause it killed 90-140 million people, and I reply to you capitalism in the last 200 years killed more than that if you combine all the crimes that have happened under capitalist states. Don't ask me for source I already gave you plenty of examples on my previous post.

    Its in the nature of capitalism, invading other countries for imperialist reasons, exploiting natural resources, expanding business control of international companies and enforcing exploitation to countries that resist the capitalist production relations. So if you want to judge an ideological-economical system try a different freaking point than communism killed X amount of people because that is a tragic irony.
    your are confusing imperialism and colonialism to capitalism they are not one in the same

    capitalism is an economic system it isn't an ideology it isn't a forum of government stop trying to equate them

  10. #370
    Quote Originally Posted by Kurata View Post
    Because unlike you I actually know about Africa, I lived in Africa, and I don't treat Africa like its a fucking country with 1 people 1 state 1 culture

    If you can't name at least 10 countries in Africa (which most Americans can't) you should probably not talk about Africa
    This has to be the most arrogant and narcissistic anecdotal mess of gatekeeping I've ever read on this site.

  11. #371
    Quote Originally Posted by Vyxn View Post
    your are confusing imperialism and colonialism to capitalism they are not one in the same

    capitalism is an economic system it isn't an ideology it isn't a forum of government stop trying to equate them
    Oh my god... you are actually not kidding hahahaha... Capitalism is an economical system as Communism is an economical system as developed by the Marxist theory. All economical systems in order to sustain themselves in society use ideology. That means that capitalist societies do export their own ideology (the idea of a state, of private owenership of the means of production, the superiority of spiritual labor etc.). You confuse sub-ideologies contained inside each economic theory (neo-liberalism, Keynesianism) or (Maoism, Leninism, Trotskism on the other hand)

  12. #372
    Quote Originally Posted by Elba View Post


    Protection from who?
    From anyone or anything. Who protects you from exploitation if there isn't a government?

  13. #373
    "Reported" deaths.

  14. #374
    Quote Originally Posted by Karsius View Post
    Oh my god... you are actually not kidding hahahaha... Capitalism is an economical system as Communism is an economical system as developed by the Marxist theory. All economical systems in order to sustain themselves in society use ideology. That means that capitalist societies do export their own ideology (the idea of a state, of private owenership of the means of production, the superiority of spiritual labor etc.). You confuse sub-ideologies contained inside each economic theory (neo-liberalism, Keynesianism) or (Maoism, Leninism, Trotskism on the other hand)
    No communism is both an economic system and a form of government because with communism you cant have one with out the other

    Capitalism can be implemented with no government as a matter of fact capitalism is the default economic system it is what will be used if no other economic system isn't forced upon the population

  15. #375
    Quote Originally Posted by rowaasr13 View Post
    Capitalism over its existence murdered and continues to murder much more. Your bloodstained "stars and stripes" is fucking born on genocide on natives and continues to destroy at least one country every decade. And after sheltering much of sentenced nazi "scientists" after WW2 it isn't really your place to speak about how anti-nazi your murderous country is. So, could you please pick up your hypocritical spewing from where it landed and stuff it back in your mouth? It stinks.
    I always love how Communists try to equate Capitalism and Communism, as if Capitalism is even capable of causing the kind of devastation that Communism has. The fundamental difference between Capitalism and Communism is that Capitalism is an economic system, while Communism is an everything system, a world view replacement ideology as I like to call it. Communism is an economic system, a political system, and a moral system. It literally does not even make sense to criticize Capitalism as being murderous. Politically, America is a Democratic Republic.

    And just so we're clear, America isn't perfect, but we're a hell of a lot better than Nazi Germany and the USSR. We don't put shitloads of our own citizens into death camps. We don't arrest people for having dissenting political opinions. We are perhaps too interventionist. However, back when we had a foreign policy like everyone else, WW1 happened. A whole generation of European men wouldn't have needed to be fed into a meat grinder if America had not been so passive, so forgive me if I find it hard to criticize American interventionism.

    Two final points:

    1. The US is very careful to minimize collateral damage in all its military engagements. People that like to rail against the evils of US Imperialism have no clue the level of kid gloves that the military fights with. Take Fallujah for example. There were two battles in Fallujah in 2004. Each one lasted for over a month. 111 US servicemen were killed in action. If the US was the monster people like you portray it as, the first battle of Fallujah would have lasted 30 minutes, and there wouldn't have been a second one. Without using nuclear weapons, the US military could have just blown the city to pieces, executing civilian and terrorist alike in a storm of hell fire. Instead, the military chose to send its own into danger, because they didn't want to butcher ~275000 civilians. I don't know if this lack of distinction between the power the military has and what it chooses to use is pure ignorance on your part or ideological bias, but either the military is not what you think it is.

    2. I have seen the internet Marxist-Leninist-Maoist statistics for how many people Capitalism has killed, and it's bullshit. It includes every kid that starved in Africa, as if it's up to the American economy to provide for the entire world, yet the same burden is not placed upon Communism.

  16. #376
    Calculating deaths under communism is like trying to calculate deaths due to Christianity. It's an entirely meaningless number simply used as a scare tactic.

  17. #377
    Quote Originally Posted by Tijuana View Post
    No, you are denying the definition of words. You can't just make up new definitions, and then the realities that the words represent change. Communism is 0-38 in bringing people less poverty. Communism is 0-38 for creating a society that people actually want to live in, and are allowed to flee if they don't. Communism is 0-38 in producing a stable economy. This is a disgusting and vile ideology, that needs to be stomped out where ever it rears it's ugly head.
    Before Stalin, communism brought Russia from a feudal economy that was literally hundreds of years behind the Western Europe, to one of the most robust and powerful economies in the world. It did this in a matter of years. The world is not as black and white as you want it to be.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  18. #378
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Before Stalin, communism brought Russia from a feudal economy that was literally hundreds of years behind the Western Europe, to one of the most robust and powerful economies in the world. It did this in a matter of years. The world is not as black and white as you want it to be.
    Point me to the Soviet prosperity, I must have missed it. Last I checked, the economy failed, and Russians lived in poverty for the duration of the Soviet regime. The Soviet government literally collapsed in economic failure, yet you prop it up as a shining example. Bizarre.

  19. #379
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by NicoWolf View Post
    This has to be the most arrogant and narcissistic anecdotal mess of gatekeeping I've ever read on this site.
    its not arrogance if it's true

  20. #380
    Quote Originally Posted by Vyxn View Post
    No communism is both an economic system and a form of government because with communism you cant have one with out the other

    Capitalism can be implemented with no government as a matter of fact capitalism is the default economic system it is what will be used if no other economic system isn't forced upon the population
    Where the hell do you base these points? You really have no idea how both capitalistic or communist societies are built? Open a book before trying to make a point please. Communism is the final stage of socialism where all forms of a state are abolished, there is no central government and the workers compose popular councils in order to manage the society. So "communism" per say cannot have a government. You are confusing socialism with communism as 99% of the people do.

    Capitalism again no matter how neo-liberal you are, cannot function without a state NO matter how small it is. It is needed even in a small margin in order for the reigning class to maintain control over the means of production. From the very early days capitalism took form after feudalism, states already existed. And again you confuse what ideology is. Ideology is the way an economic system solidifies its reign within the society. Without ideology no economic system can function (at least as long as other economic systems antagonize it). Capitalism exports its own ideology, through schools, the universities, the media and mainly its own state. Again you need to read up on what ideology really is because you are confused.

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