More than just windmills (Dutch colonialism)

[shadowmouse]

As a jurist, one of the first things I learned on law school is that no one can be held accountable for crimes he didn't commit.

As a retired lawyer myself, that's fine. Now go back and answer the question about the government and royalty, because nobody is discussing the acts of individuals. Like corporations, a government or hereditary monarchy is or isn't. For a comperable legal issue, look at Japan still going around about the issue of comfort women.

You know he's a Moroccan and you want to claim him as a typical Dutchman just because you want to scream racist.

It helps to read the thread. If you had, you might have noticed that I specified that approximately 1 in 5 Dutch fit a profile that doesn't match the language of demonizing white folks. Did I say typical? No. I said he is Dutch, and by citizenship he is. So are roughly 1 in 5 other Dutch -- who hold citizenship but don't count as white. You see, it was someone else playing the race card. If he isn't Dutch, how is he a politician in your country and even a mayor?

Now, as for your mangled examples of what something isn't -- go read how passports and citizenship work, because that's how we determine if a person belongs to X nationality. IF the government of nation X recognizes someone as a citizen -- they are. I gather that has recently been a problem for several politicians in Australia, to provide an example that doesn't need a fish bowl. Steven Seagal is now Russian by the way.

What does me (or the Dutch government) apologizing for my ancestors transgressions help those who's families were wronged?

You have ancestors -- the government is a legal entity, a creature of law and has an existence only in law. Scroll up. Look at the picture. Your monarchs ride in a carriage that still depicts slaves. It isn't current, so why do they do it? What does history mean in the context of your comments? What does any apology do? If you spill your drink on someone, your apology won't dry their shirt, will it?

Then let's also start talking about the Indonesian treatment of the Moluccas province?

Why bother to nitpick obvious whataboutism? If you have an issue, go ahead and bring it up, but don't hide behind it as an excuse. That's sort of like if Germany were saying "don't blame us for WWII, what about the Italians and the Japanese"?

Interesting that you should bring them up though, because that's another story that requires a bit of context:

The feeling that they were betrayed by the Dutch unites the Moluccan community almost as much as the struggle for an independent country. After Indonesia won its independence in 1949, many Moluccan soldiers who had fought on the side of the Dutch were sent to the Netherlands for demobilisation, with the promise that they would return very shortly.

The Dutch authorities housed them and their families in camps. They believed their stay in the Netherlands would indeed be short, and that they would soon be able to go back home. But Indonesia’s rule took a firm hold, and the Dutch failed to do anything to bring about Moluccan independence or the safe return of its former soldiers. Most South Moluccans were Christian, part of the Dutch-speaking colonial elite who had fought on the losing side. Their islands were subsequently absorbed – although not totally - into a predominantly Muslim Indonesia and the world they had known started to disappear.

Source: https://www.rnw.org/archive/moluccan...still-alive-60

[Cairhiin]

You have ancestors -- the government is a legal entity, a creature of law and has an existence only in law. Scroll up. Look at the picture. Your monarchs ride in a carriage that still depicts slaves. It isn't current, so why do they do it? What does history mean in the context of your comments? What does any apology do? If you spill your drink on someone, your apology won't dry their shirt, will it?

While I agree on the carriage, it seems to me you are just out on a crusade against Dutch people for whatever reason I can not fathom.

[Sharein]

While I agree on the carriage, it seems to me you are just out on a crusade against Dutch people for whatever reason I can not fathom.

The same as what she accuses us of;

Racism.

[shadowmouse]

The same as what she accuses us of; Racism.

Dear me, they let you represent yourself as trained in the reading of law? Quote please, produce the quote where I made any such accusation.

While I agree on the carriage, it seems to me you are just out on a crusade against Dutch people for whatever reason I can not fathom.

Previously misattributed to Sharein, with apologies to both for the error

Because I started with a fairly simple question or two. In broad terms, part of the consulting work that I do involves cross culture issues. I came across an old article and it rang a bell. I had two general thoughts. First, was that I had vague memories of some of this stuff, and wondered whatever happened afterwards. Second, I though how odd some of these things seem if one doesn't know the little quirks of history, and in turn that reminded me that there are places where these things probably never get thought of or taught. @Mall Security chimed in on that point.

I've explained that several times, but what I get is an amazing amount of passive-aggressive bullcrap. Seriously, somebody tells me they went to law school as an appeal to authority, but they can't read clear English? When is pointing out citizenship means even non-white people are --if citizens, as a matter of law, Dutch -- accusing anyone of racism? Specifically, I made the point that not all Dutch are white, and commenting on the Dutch was not an attempt to slag off white people.

At this point, I'm just indulging a morbid curiosity about how badly some of our posters are going to thrash about. You've been reasonably civil, so I've tried to reply in kind.

[Deleted]

And right there is why you don't get it.

For you it is weird that I brought it up. You don't wonder about the other side of the coin, what's the comparable Asian dish in Chicago for example. Do you think that rijsttafel has the same background as if I walk into a restaurant in Chicago and order Kung Pao Chicken? Let's check Wiki.


Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rijsttafel

So, to you it is "Asian food" but it seems inseparable from the Dutch colonial heritage. That's why I use it as an example of something that wouldn't make much sense without that context.

It's still asian food, hell i even call it more Chinese than Indonesian, in fact we even have Chinese Rijsttafels, and the colonial heritage behind is very tasteful...

Seriously, as a retired lawyer, go spend your time in retirement more useful for yourself rather than getting worked up over a rijsttafel.

Surprisingly, you aren't the only person in this thread. I mentioned distractions being brought up. If you actually bothered to read anything, which you've shown no sign of, you would have noticed post #18 in which I was clearly replying to another poster who wrote: "I just think this constant survey of 'which white people can we demonize today ...' " Specific words, "which white people". Notice the language you quoted. Where do I mention you? That's right, in another clause, after a comma.

I was refering to the point where you claimed the Dutch weren't white people, and i said the Dutch are white, while yours truly is not white. Confusing isn't it?

Oh, right, you need me to bring up bad stuff the Dutch have done to fit your narrative. How's that apology for slavery coming? Because what could be better than having a royal family with a golden coach and a glorification of slavery?


See also: http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-d...s-golden-coach

In keeping with what seems to be a pattern, there has been "deep remorse" and "regret" but no apology that I see.


Source: http://www.dutchnews.nl/features/201..._were_not_apo/

Shall we bring Black pete in the subject as well? to be honest, i never actually saw that neat little picture on the carriage before today, can't really say i'm troubled about it, it's how things were back in the day. If people get upset by it, photoshop the slaves out of it.

Young people, or governments -- in the case of the Netherlands a government with a hereditary monarchy and a cool golden carriage ... depicting slaves. Does the royalty and government get a free pass because some of the population are younger? And have all of those grandfathers passed on already?

Yes they get a "free pass" because nobody cares about the carriage, nobody cares now what happened to Indonesia in the past, nobody cares about where rijsttafel originally comes from as long as it's delicious, nobody cares about your opinion and if you want an apology from the Dutch, i think you can wait a long long time.

[shadowmouse]

Seriously, as a retired lawyer, go spend your time in retirement more useful for yourself rather than getting worked up over a rijsttafel.

The joy of being retired, it gives me a degree of freedom to amuse myself. The important thing is does Chinese rijsttafel come with fortune cookies? Because you seem like the kind of person who needs fortune cookies with Asian food.

I was refering to the point where you claimed the Dutch weren't white people, and i said the Dutch are white, while yours truly is not white. Confusing isn't it?

Not really, but you do seem to be confusing yourself. Dutch isn't a race, it is a nationality. Nationality derives from citizenship. It doesn't matter if the person is purple, it matters if they hold citizenship.

Shall we bring Black pete in the subject as well?

No, that recurring thread isn't due for a while yet.

Yes they get a "free pass" because nobody cares about the carriage, nobody cares now what happened to Indonesia in the past, nobody cares about where rijsttafel originally comes from as long as it's delicious, nobody cares about your opinion and if you want an apology from the Dutch, i think you can wait a long long time.

Now put on the ruby slippers and click your heels. If *nobody* cared this would be a one page thread. Instead, I see several very defensive people trying very hard to deflect and I wonder why.

Nobody cares about that carriage? OK, then why isn't it in a museum where historical art tends to be? When something is currently used by the monarchy, it is a symbol being used today. Reading up on it, it would seem that there are people who care about that.

Nobody cares about what happened in Indonesia in the past? I have the impression that the Indonesians do, and there may be some Muloccans in your part of the world who have a few issues too.

So, really, whatcha hiding?

[Sharein]

Just say it, bungee, say it. Go on, use the big n and f words. We know you want to.

And no, I don't care. Like I said, none of us are responsible for what happened in 1947. I think many of us are sick ans tired of constantly being branded things we aren't and being held responible for things we have nothing to do with.

[Flarelaine]

Now, there are a few interesting complications to the Dzungar genocide.

Thank you for the insight into Chinese history. I knew most of these puzzle pieces, just never from this angle.

[Deleted]

The joy of being retired, it gives me a degree of freedom to amuse myself. The important thing is does Chinese rijsttafel come with fortune cookies? Because you seem like the kind of person who needs fortune cookies with Asian food.

Nope we don't really have fortune cookies here, the colonists must have forgotten them, but we do have kroepoek though!

Not really, but you do seem to be confusing yourself. Dutch isn't a race, it is a nationality. Nationality derives from citizenship. It doesn't matter if the person is purple, it matters if they hold citizenship.

Yet still the Dutch people are white.

No, that recurring thread isn't due for a while yet.

Are you sure? I mean the pepernoten are already in the stores as we speak.

Now put on the ruby slippers and click your heels. If *nobody* cared this would be a one page thread. Instead, I see several very defensive people trying very hard to deflect and I wonder why.

\

Nobody cares about that carriage? OK, then why isn't it in a museum where historical art tends to be? When something is currently used by the monarchy, it is a symbol being used today. Reading up on it, it would seem that there are people who care about that.

Nobody cares about what happened in Indonesia in the past? I have the impression that the Indonesians do, and there may be some Muloccans in your part of the world who have a few issues too.

So, really, whatcha hiding?[/QUOTE]
Hiding? I'm not hiding anything, i just don't care about all of this apart from the part where you are trying to discredit a country because of something that happens ages ago. Do you also still blame the Germans of today for both World wars?

[shadowmouse]

We know you want to.

Considering your batting average this thread, I'd say that what you think you know isn't particularly accurate. Whatever weird debates you have wherever you hang out have little to do with me, and if you stopped projecting them onto what you think you read, you might read more clearly. I'm sure that your "n word" and "f word" are deeply meaningful to you; however, I doubt one is a racial epithet and the other a vulgarity for sex which is what they normally mean in my circles.

Welcome to the world. History exists. People ask for answers. They ask them of the government that exists today, because that government existed in 1947 and before.

All around the world, people ask for answers to questions that remain unresolved, and "well, I didn't personally do it" is a damned weak answer. The follow up is to ask why you tolerate things today that echo, glorify, or simply benefit from past abuses or errors. For example, that carriage is an element of history and art, keep it for those things but keep it where one keeps such things -- in a museum with appropriate discussion and explanation. A similar situation comes up every year when people ask about the Yasukuni shrine. People ask, even if Shinzo Abe (for example) wasn't born until 1954.

Do you also still blame the Germans of today for both World wars?

Hmmm... let me see. <bungee checks> Nope, looks to me like Germany has specifically addressed its past, made apologies, made reparations (for which the Netherlands first grabbed a chunk of land and then effectively ransomed it back in the 60s), and doesn't currently use or even allow the general use of former symbols from WWII in particular. Now, how about you guys? Formal apologies, reparations, setting aside symbols associated with previous abuses. How ya doing on those things?

@Flarelaine You're welcome.

[JohnBrown1917]

While I agree on the carriage, it seems to me you are just out on a crusade against Dutch people for whatever reason I can not fathom.

Just jelly of our sexy wind mills.

hmmmmmmmmmm... yeeee baby, turn those sexy things.

[Teri]

How about all those Chinese in Africa present day, unofficial colonies pretty much.

Or dividing worker classes in countries like UAE, viewed by some as "modern slavery".

Those are just examples.

Greed and power always exists, and while we don't openly fight wars like the past between nation vs nation, trade/resource "wars" still happen present day.

I think almost every big region in the world had it's past and ongoing conflicts of some type, and time does not stand still.

In no way can you compare the current Dutch to the past, we barely even have a military anymore and most of our trades are knowledge and small computer/machinery parts and such, unlike the major weapon exports of China/US/Russia and the likes.

We have a lot of throughput trade however.

Besides, colonialism was found all over the world at the time, Dutch,Belgium,German,British,Spanish,Portuguese,Italian & others.

[Fuiking]

Considering your batting average this thread, I'd say that what you think you know isn't particularly accurate. Whatever weird debates you have wherever you hang out have little to do with me, and if you stopped projecting them onto what you think you read, you might read more clearly. I'm sure that your "n word" and "f word" are deeply meaningful to you; however, I doubt one is a racial epithet and the other a vulgarity for sex which is what they normally mean in my circles.

Welcome to the world. History exists. People ask for answers. They ask them of the government that exists today, because that government existed in 1947 and before.

All around the world, people ask for answers to questions that remain unresolved, and "well, I didn't personally do it" is a damned weak answer. The follow up is to ask why you tolerate things today that echo, glorify, or simply benefit from past abuses or errors. For example, that carriage is an element of history and art, keep it for those things but keep it where one keeps such things -- in a museum with appropriate discussion and explanation. A similar situation comes up every year when people ask about the Yasukuni shrine. People ask, even if Shinzo Abe (for example) wasn't born until 1954.



Hmmm... let me see. <bungee checks> Nope, looks to me like Germany has specifically addressed its past, made apologies, made reparations (for which the Netherlands first grabbed a chunk of land and then effectively ransomed it back in the 60s), and doesn't currently use or even allow the general use of former symbols from WWII in particular. Now, how about you guys? Formal apologies, reparations, setting aside symbols associated with previous abuses. How ya doing on those things?

@Flarelaine You're welcome.

You do know those chunk of land only involved about 60km2 with around 5000 population? and why the fucking comparission against the dutch? Theres a vastly different level of nastyness.. I mean, what symbols?


In other words: Quit this random crusade against the Dutch.

[Ilara]

Oh look another thread about shaming white people for things other white people did before they were even born.

[Deleted]

European colonialism is the source of most of our problems across the globe.

I beg to differ. The US forcing all European colonial powers to give up their colonies is what sparked all the conflicts over the last ~70 years. At the same time the US wants the same amount of influence over these countries and continues to meddle with them.

Example? Israel/Palestine is a good one. Good job US. And good job UK for giving it to the jews just before giving up all colonies as enforced by the US. Kind of a last dick move to ensure instability in the region.

What a gigantic mess this all made. All the different tribes in Africa killing eachother for land, another example. None of this would've happened if they were governed by Europeans to keep it all in check. I guess the US was just jealous.

Now as for the counterargument I'm undoubtly getting, yes there were also plenty of problems with the European colonial powers abusing their power over the people. But I think it's far better than what is currently happening, and it could've improved with time. But no, let's give a bunch of tribes with no true connection to eachother a country to rule and see what happens to them.

[baskev]

[QUOTE=bungeebungee;47189936]Today the Netherlands are seemingly benign, a land of cheese, fries with a host of toppings, windmills, and tulips.

Maybe it is just an American thing, that the days of Dutch Empire get overlooked except perhaps as a footnote when New York is mentioned.

I wonder, it seems that rijsttafel is still around -- does anyone today think back on the Dutch connection to Indonesia and some of the darker moments of Dutch colonialism? This popped up and reminded me how far off the radar those events seem today.





As a Dutchmen i can say yes, or colonialism gets overlook both the positive ( not meaning for the people of the land. But how successful it was and paved the road for some things ) and the mostly negative side's.

my response to the article:

- yes the dutch where bad. Like all country's with colonial past we where terrifying.
- But your link post also states on the dutch that we do not remember it or try to deny it....we do not. This is a false statement. I was even told in school about the things we did. ( not the most horrendous things...but that we where not nice)
And yes we moralize human rights abuses of other country's. Because we have learned from our mistakes. The Netherlands back then had a very Autocracy ruling style. since the 1970's it has become pretty much a top 10 liberal country of the world.
- And yes The Hague is the main site for investigation into war crimes. We could pick a other country that has committed no war crimes....good luck finding that.
- Ponke Princen was then what most dutch people ( sadly not all) are. For freedom. And yes he was banned for guerrilla tactics...again in the 70's ...we where so different back then.
- Little is know....believe us we know. Because who ever wrote this piece of crap forgets that during the years after that 300.000 came to the Netherlands either for being married to a dutch person, being half dutch. Or did not agree with the new regime. Most of the fled because many of them where killed. But back on point. We do know. And we regret it.


My response to your post:
Yes my country did horrible things. But we do not deny, forget etc it. We have learned from our past mistakes. I find this article full with bad information, half truths etc.
And my second taught on all of this is: where is the bit about the Indonesians chasing out there own country men after gaining independence? We have a whole group of immigrants here.
And a last thing. How do people look at it now in Indonesia where the extreme Muslims are on the rise big time? Where you can get jail because you say you do not support Muslims or because you are gay.
If you want to be specific on 1 country...use all the facts not your own truths .

[zealo]

- And yes The Hague is the main site for investigation into war crimes. We could pick a other country that has committed no war crimes....good luck finding that.

Yup.

Even the now most socially liberal countries in the world has some pretty ugly skeletons in their closets. For my own country, E.g https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schwedentrunk. The Swedish version of waterboarding was pretty brutal back in the day.

[Deleted]

Did I accidentally alt tab over to Stormfront? A person is recognized by law as Dutch or they are not.

Oh fuck i made the mistake of expecting a conversation.
But stateing a fact about heritage = stormfront in your humble opinion.
Allright, glad we figured that out. Good luck with that discussion.
I'm not partaking.

[Fuiking]

If we go bungeebungee's way, I want to have reparations, and excuses from the Elite in Den Hague for suppressing the Catholics in the south and using it as a warzone/bufferzone for 300 years. I want Rossum, Nijmegen and Zuphten to pay war reparations and excuses to everyone else because Maarten van Rossum went and burned everything around him! ''Blaken en braken zijn de parels van Oorlog'' Its offensive!

[Deleted]

It helps to read the thread. If you had, you might have noticed that I specified that approximately 1 in 5 Dutch fit a profile that doesn't match the language of demonizing white folks. Did I say typical? No. I said he is Dutch, and by citizenship he is. So are roughly 1 in 5 other Dutch -- who hold citizenship but don't count as white. You see, it was someone else playing the race card. If he isn't Dutch, how is he a politician in your country and even a mayor?

Now, as for your mangled examples of what something isn't -- go read how passports and citizenship work, because that's how we determine if a person belongs to X nationality. IF the government of nation X recognizes someone as a citizen -- they are. I gather that has recently been a problem for several politicians in Australia, to provide an example that doesn't need a fish bowl. Steven Seagal is now Russian by the way.

Why would I need to read the whole thread? I read your posts and that was enough to form my opinion about you. You're just baiting because you know he isn't ethnically Dutch. The guy is literally a few days mayor and not without opposition. And out of the 17 million people you want to show him as a typical ''white'' Dutchman as a reference for Dutch people. That's just baiting for reactions where you can scream RACIST and all your abracadabra. I don't care about someone else playing the race card, your deliberately displaying a Moroccon here as a way to display ''a white Dutchman''. Very weird indeed.

And 1 in 5? Don't start making up numbers because what you're making up here is far from the truth. Very far.

You can scream retired lawyer all you want, but every moron knows how passports work. If you are a citizen of X country, you belong to that country in terms of law. It doesn't mean you're a Dutchman yourself. Is this that hard to understand or are you just refusing to take a look at your own opinion and judge it critically? I've seen some others in this thread wasting their time on you that being Dutch =/ having Dutch citizenship. They have citizenship, they're not Dutch. How hard is it to understand?

Again, if I had kids in China and would have Chinese citizenship, my children would be Dutch. If you would be the lawyer of my kids you'd have to see them as Chinese, but that doesn't take away the fact that they're ethnically Dutch. That doesn't matter from a law standpoint. It does from a political / ethnical standpoint like we have here. So maybe it's hard for you, but you can't look at this world through your law lens the whole time. Try to step back and think over your own ideas critically. You might learn something new before you die.

- - - Updated - - -

Considering your batting average this thread, I'd say that what you think you know isn't particularly accurate. Whatever weird debates you have wherever you hang out have little to do with me, and if you stopped projecting them onto what you think you read, you might read more clearly. I'm sure that your "n word" and "f word" are deeply meaningful to you; however, I doubt one is a racial epithet and the other a vulgarity for sex which is what they normally mean in my circles.

Welcome to the world. History exists. People ask for answers. They ask them of the government that exists today, because that government existed in 1947 and before.

All around the world, people ask for answers to questions that remain unresolved, and "well, I didn't personally do it" is a damned weak answer. The follow up is to ask why you tolerate things today that echo, glorify, or simply benefit from past abuses or errors. For example, that carriage is an element of history and art, keep it for those things but keep it where one keeps such things -- in a museum with appropriate discussion and explanation. A similar situation comes up every year when people ask about the Yasukuni shrine. People ask, even if Shinzo Abe (for example) wasn't born until 1954.



Hmmm... let me see. <bungee checks> Nope, looks to me like Germany has specifically addressed its past, made apologies, made reparations (for which the Netherlands first grabbed a chunk of land and then effectively ransomed it back in the 60s), and doesn't currently use or even allow the general use of former symbols from WWII in particular. Now, how about you guys? Formal apologies, reparations, setting aside symbols associated with previous abuses. How ya doing on those things?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Are you seriously comparing the Dutch to the German apology when the whole world ie 3 superpowers were on their doorstep and in their capital after WW2? What do you think they would say? FUCK YOU GET OFF OUR LAND? You're an idiot.

A large part of Germany is ashamed of itself and it's past, while most of them alive didn't do anything. They're atleast that much ashamed of it's past that they are willingly giving up their country and their people. So atleast that would make you happy.

Btw, if everyone in a country is responsible for it's past, can you please start telling all these ''Dutch'' people, or how normal people like to call them: Moroccans Syrians Turks etc. about their horrible past of THEIR ancestors in countries like the Dutch East Indies (it's not Indonesia, I thought I read somewhere that you were calling people out on having to read history books?). In other words, you have 3 choices.
1) The immigrants who are not ethnically Dutch who have Dutch passports and have Dutch citizenship are not as Dutch as the Dutch itself.
2) They are just as responsible for the deeds we did. And you should be reminding them about THEIR ancestors. How cruel they were.
3) Stop this nonsense.

Let's say if we are responsible for what all our ancestors did, why are we only hearing about wars and colonialism? Why aren't people treating us as gods to all the inventions and greatness we have brought upon them? It's really weird, this selective outrage. I know where it's coming from, it's just some form of hatred or annoyance which you try to justify by simply pulling up some fact you just read in a history book. Well, well done sir. Well done. Can we go on with our lives now? You can hate us in your dark cave when reading all your historic greatness, which we btw, learned already on elementary school.

To summarize, you're a cunt, you think you're clever. Being this extremely stupid while maintaining a wall of imitating a high intellectual is always going to bite you in your ass.