Should DACA recipements allowed to stay but with conditions?

[Thepersona]

Being raised somewhere doesn't get one citizenship.

Homeland =/= being a citizen
You dont understand the issue

[Skroe]

Those children may stay if they liked. Nobody is forcing them to leave. But their parents must leave.

How about you leave, foreigner? What's this "must" shit. I can come up with a cockamamie justification for that if I tried. Technically speaking, I've had hamsters with a better claim to American blood-and-soil-hood than you. Once you start down that road, one group of people can justify anything to exclude another.

Your throwing stones in one big glass house.

[Theodarzna]

So you don't understand the issue.

I understand the desire of Democrats to gain voters eventually and play white savior, and I understand Republicans love of increasing the labor pool and thus depressing wages.

[Thepersona]

I understand the desire of Democrats to gain voters eventually and play white savior, and I understand Republicans love of increasing the labor pool and thus depressing wages.

That's not how it works...

[Elegiac]

I understand the desire of Democrats to gain voters eventually and play white savior, and I understand Republicans love of increasing the labor pool and thus depressing wages.

We're not talking about low cost labor.

And what the fuck do you care, anyway? I thought your shtick was being against the establishment on the side of the 'common man'.

[Xeones]

I understand the desire of Democrats to gain voters eventually and play white savior, and I understand Republicans love of increasing the labor pool and thus depressing wages.

Would have been easier to simply say "yes".

[Theodarzna]

How about you leave, foreigner? What's this "must" shit. I can come up with a cockamamie justification for that if I tried. Technically speaking, I've had hamsters with a better claim to American blood-and-soil-hood than you. Once you start down that road, one group of people can justify anything to exclude another.

Your throwing stones in one big glass house.

Well I bought my citizenship with time and money. :3 .... Money, you know, they thing that is God in these lands?

I.E. I used your magical legal process to stay. Had my mother had the foresight I guess she should have chosen this American man first and gotten pregnant and just popped me out here and wait to be awarded. Would have saved us all time, money and effort.

[Elegiac]

Well I bought my citizenship with time and money. :3 .... Money, you know, they thing that is God in these lands?

So did I. Difference is I'm not being a cunt and pulling the ladder up behind me for 'reasons'.

[Noxx79]

Well I bought my citizenship with time and money. :3 .... Money, you know, they thing that is God in these lands?

I.E. I used your magical legal process to stay. Had my mother had the foresight I guess she should have chosen this American man first and gotten pregnant and just popped me out here and wait to be awarded. Would have saved us all time, money and effort.

And if your parents screwed up the paperwork, you'd have no problem with being deported immediately, right?

[Cthulhu 2020]

Then they aren't here legally and Endus' point is.... typical.

You don't reward children for the sins of their fathers either. :3

Yes, someone has lived pretty much the entirety of their non-infant life here and is now in their teens, twenties, and some even in their thirties. They've known no country other than the USA. They know only its customs and ways, they went to US schools.

Now we must ship them off to another country that they know nothing about, and some don't even know the language of, because clearly letting them stay here is immoral and wrong.

It seems your moral compass is still completely and utterly broken, but I doubt anyone is surprised. I'm certainly not.

[Theodarzna]

And if your parents screwed up the paperwork, you'd have no problem with being deported immediately, right?

Not really. I'd be a little annoyed by the cost but then I already have the view that hucksterism is sort of a native talent in the States.

[Cthulhu 2020]

So did I. Difference is I'm not being a cunt and pulling the ladder up behind me for 'reasons'.

"The land of opportunity is for me and mine! Fuck everyone else."

One reason we need to fix/streamline our immigration process is because the excessive work it takes makes those who go through it really bitter, and if they're conservatively minded, they want everyone else to have it as hard as they had it, if not harder. That seems to be a common theme. If they get something in life, nobody else should have it easier than them, that seems to be the common mentality at least.

[Edge-]

A goal which will thankfully not come to pass. And they shouldn't be rewarded with citizenship either.

Except that you're completely ignoring that the post of yours I quoted and responded to is completely incorrect.

And it's a goal that may happen if Congress can bother to get anything done. It's also not a "reward", it's just the absence of a punishment.

You're not very good at this.

[Skroe]

how should i be looking at this honestly? Dreamers already use resources, and their MANY siblings already used Welfare? Now they can work , it is moral for them to pay the double the tax rate, so money can be recovered for welfare, which will be used for future illigals anyway.

You don't understand anything, so I will try.

America minus the latino population growth is below population replacement. The only reason we're above it is because while white families are having one child or less, Latino and immigrant families are having two or more. Europe and Japan are experiencing a similar thing among their far more homogenius populations. Nothing to stimulate having more kids has worked. People don't want to, end of story.

As we move deeper into the century, two things are going to happen. First, the cost of entitlement programs are going to explode. The US already has significant liabilities in that department, but they'll increase as boomers, followed by Gen Xers, followed by millennials, all start retiring in the 2020s, 2030s and 2040s. Today's trillion-dollar program will be tomorrow's trillion and a half. And they will not be cut. Even though they should be, and politically I very much want them to be, this country does not cut entitlements.

To pay for that, we need increased revenues. That means tax the existing workforce more, or grow the work force. And guess what? The workforce isn't going to grow at a rate to pay for it sustainable. And moreover, far from "robots taking over the world", there are going to be more jobs than there are qualified workers mid-century. Far more jobs.

The United States, like most of the rich world, needs young, eager workers. As many as it can, paying taxes, to keep our national finances in halfway decent shape.

If you want to make an economic arugment about illegal immigration... don't try. There isn't one. If we were going to evaluate, objectively, illegal immigration, immigration as a whole in terms purely of resources (as in, labor being a finite pool of a human resource that grows at a specific rate), it would be in this country's interest to not just legalize the "dreamers" and every single other Mexican or Latin American illegal immigrant, but to throw open the doors and say "come in, the water's warm, set up your businesses, have kids, pay taxes"


But the thing is, this has never been about Economics. It's been about race, politics and power. It's about keeping America white in a time when it's browning, and the unwillingness of Republicans, my party, to keep with the times and make out reaches to latinos and bring them into the fold, in favor of doubling down on the shrinking, older, White Male electorate.

- - - Updated - - -

Well I bought my citizenship with time and money. :3 .... Money, you know, they thing that is God in these lands?

I.E. I used your magical legal process to stay. Had my mother had the foresight I guess she should have chosen this American man first and gotten pregnant and just popped me out here and wait to be awarded. Would have saved us all time, money and effort.

And that's entirely the point. Laws change. I was born here. You weren't. You're throwing really dumb stones because you're acting like there hasn't been a precedent in the Western world for stripping people who have non-birth citizenship of it.

Likely? Not at all. But it's a weird the position you've taken. It's much harder to take away blood born citizenship than citizenship through a legal process. Us "blood born" Americans are basically allowing you into our pool. We don't have to forever. That's the point. The only reason you're in our pool is because we let you, for now. Just as you seem unwilling to allow the dreamers into the pool with the same generosity we allowed you into it.

[Theodarzna]

And that's entirely the point. Laws change.

How insulting to people who actually went through the process that the GOP's boundless hunger for keeping wages lower with increased labor pool and the democrats gambit of winning more voters will simply invalidate your families toils, sacrifices and struggles.

Yes, "Oh forget that line and process we are just going to let these people in no harm no foul because man, we need to feel like white saviors."

[Malacrass]

I don't know, of course it's retarded to deport people who grew up in the US just like every other citizen, but it does send a strong message when you grant them amnesty as well.
So apart from hopping over the border to give birth, people can also migrate with their kids illegally and hope for amnesty years later, which may or may not be granted depending on the ruling government (effectively playing roulette with the life of their children).

So for those in favor of DACA, how do you avoid it being a pull-factor for more illegal immigrants?

[Cthulhu 2020]

How insulting to people who actually went through the process that the GOP's boundless hunger for keeping wages lower with increased labor pool and the democrats gambit of winning more voters will simply invalidate your families toils, sacrifices and struggles.

Yes, "Oh forget that line and process we are just going to let these people in no harm no foul because man, we need to feel like white saviors."

"My family is the only one that has had to go through hardship, those other guys I'm disparaging have it sooooooooooo easy!"

[Skroe]

How insulting to people who actually went through the process that the GOP's boundless hunger for keeping wages lower with increased labor pool and the democrats gambit of winning more voters will simply invalidate your families toils, sacrifices and struggles.

Yes, "Oh forget that line and process we are just going to let these people in no harm no foul because man, we need to feel like white saviors."

The process itself is what's flawed. The US needs more workers. Lots more workers. And will need even more in decades ahead.

This "too many illegals in the work force keeping wages lower" is a bunch of bullshit that exists soley to justify a policy of excluded already decided upon.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/21/u...s.html?mcubz=3

President Trump continues to promise that he will accelerate job growth by cutting taxes and regulations. But the accumulating evidence that workers are getting harder to find, and that wages are rising more quickly, has convinced many economists that significantly faster growth is unlikely. The Federal Reserve has cited the trend as its reason for moving to wind down its own economic stimulus campaign. The Fed may raise interest rates again at its next meeting in June.

Qualtrics, which conducts online market research, is a prime example of the rapid growth of the Utah economy — and the sense that Utah is straining at the limits of its growth potential. Scott Smith started the company with his son, Ryan, and a college classmate in his Provo home in 2002. Qualtrics now employs 1,300 people, including about 800 in a new headquarters building opened in August at the mouth of Provo Canyon. And it is bringing workers to Utah as fast as it can.

https://www.usnews.com/news/articles...orkers-in-2020

As the economy continues to slowly recover and millions of job openings are expected to appear over the next decade, there is a growing call for more educated workers to fill those positions. But the current higher education graduation rate is stagnant, and the economy will face a shortage of 5 million workers with the necessary education and training by 2020, according to a study from researchers at Georgetown University.

Over the next several years, 55 million jobs will become available, researchers at Georgetown University's Center on Education and the Workforce found in a study. The majority of those jobs will require some sort of education and training after high school, but without major changes to the nation's postsecondary education system – which includes community colleges, four-year institutions and technical and career schools – there will not be enough workers to fill those positions, the report says.
"If we look at how many degrees we are conferring per year and compare that to the job openings, there's a disconnect," says Nicole Smith, a co-author of the report. "We have no reason to believe there will be a huge increase in graduation rates."

Overall employment is expected to increase by about 24 million to 164.6 million in 2020. The other 31 million positions will open up due to baby boomers retiring, the report says.

And of the nearly 165 million jobs, 65 percent will require some sort of postsecondary education or training, up from 59 percent in 2010. In industries like information technology and government, 80 percent of the jobs will require more than a high school diploma.
The researchers' job growth prediction is a middle-of-the-road estimate. The Bureau of Labor Statistics estimates that there will be 163.5 million jobs in 2020, while Macroeconomic Advisors predicted 168.1 million, according to the report.

Though sales and office support occupations will still make up the bulk (14 million) of all jobs created, they will experience some of the slowest growth over the next few years. Healthcare professional and technical, healthcare support, STEM, community service and education occupations will be the fastest growing, with increases ranging from 24 to 31 percent in each area.

Nearly 80 percent of those occupations will also require high levels of postsecondary education. Healthcare support is the exception, with only 59 percent of those positions expected to require a postsecondary education.
Smith says the worker shortage will cause wage premiums to rise, as employers "try to lure the most educated workers," she says.
"It creates this artificially high wage premium to people with the training that's required," Smith says.

http://www.heritage.org/jobs-and-lab...n-and-counting

AAmerica has a deficit of workers. Willing workers. Capable workers. Skilled, or at least semi-skilled workers, who can do a job and do it well. There are at least one million jobs that go begging day after day if only employers could find workers to fill them.

This probably seems hard-to-believe. After all, how can America have a worker shortage when we have about 18 million Americans who are unemployed or underemployed? When the real unemployment rate is 12 percent?

Well certainly the economy isn’t creating nearly as many jobs as it should – in large part because of regulatory and tax restraints on hiring workers. ObamaCare’s anti-employment impact, including the rule that caps employment at 50 workers or less at many firms to avoid the law’s higher costs, is just one example of a law that adds to unemployment lines.

But there are also millions of unemployed Americans who don't have the skill sets to match what employers are in need of. To make matters worse, a lot of these frustrated job searchers have college degrees that are about as marketable as the paper diploma they are written on.

So what kind of jobs are going unfilled?

* Manufacturing - We always hear we are losing good manufacturing jobs in America and those bedrock middle class jobs aren't coming back. Gregory Baise, the President of the Illinois Manufacturing Association, tells me that there are "some 500,000 jobs we can't fill. It's the biggest problem our industry faces.". The industry needs welders, pipefitters, electricians, engineers. It needs people skilled in robotics and basic engineering.

* Trucking - At any time over the last several years there have been about 30,000 too few truckers to run long haul routes. The American Trucking Association tells me the number could be closer to 50,000. This is admittedly a tough and high-stress job with lots of time away from friends and family. But they are jobs that pay $50,000 and up, and a lot more than that with overtime.

* Energy - Bloomberg reports that "Gulf Coast oil, gas and chemical companies will have to find 36,000 new qualified workers" by 2016. Many energy towns have unemployment rates of less tha 3 percent - in other words, there's a worker shortage.

These aren't menial or "dead end" jobs. They typically pay between $50,000 and $90,000 a year and with benefits the compensation can climb to $100,000. That's rich in most nations.

Bob Funk, CEO of Express Employment Professionals, one of the nation's largest temporary employment agencies located in Oklahoma City, places more Americans into jobs than just about anyone. With nearly half-a million hires a year he tells me, he can find a job for "any American with a strong work ethic and can pass a drug test." He also estimates that the worker shortage - those with skills to fill available jobs - "is at least one million and probably higher than that."

You care about the line out of some ridiculous fairness principles? Fuck your line. This is about a finite resource, one (like many) which we sorely take for granted. The US must look to the rest of the developed world and see their labor shortages and the economic costs on their economies, and move to avoid that.

We have 10 million non-legitimized illegal residents here. We have people wanting to come from an entire-continent in search of better economic opportunity. On economic grounds, we should let them. We should make it easy. We should roll out the red carpet. Because workers pay taxes, and taxes pay for things that Americans like. And unless we continue to expand the work force, which is too small as is, we'll see nothing but higher taxes and fewer things that Americans like.

We can't have our cake and eat it too.

[Garnier Fructis]

Is it morally bankrupt to reward this action? I know Republicans want cheap slave labor and Democrats are hoping for the votes, but really they shouldn't be here at all.

That you would frame it as a reward is ridiculous. They didn't do anything to deserve a reward. They didn't do anything to deserve a punishment. Because they didn't do anything that they had a choice in. Did you get to choose where you were raised? I didn't.

And 'cheap slave labor' is a nice talking point, but completely false. Average and median wage for them after DACA is more than double the federal minimum wage. Average annual salary is ~$36,000. Many are pursuing higher education.

They shouldn't be here. But they are here, and they are integrated into the economy and into society. It is both inhumane and economically stupid to kick them out.

[Theodarzna]

The process itself is what's flawed. The US needs more workers. Lots more workers. And will need even more in decades ahead.

This "too many illegals in the work force keeping wages lower" is a bunch of bullshit that exists soley to justify a policy of excluded already decided upon.

This is actually a bogus claim. The US does not actually need more workers. What that phrase means is employers want workers who will work for a certain pay grade and no more, but cannot drum up people who will work for pittance.

Also I am surprised the knowledge of supply and demand is so unknown by you. Increase the supply of something and you decrease its value. Labor at the end of the day is subject to the same laws. At the end of the day all you advocate for is corporate America having depressed wages over all and a nearly unlimited labor pool with which to draw from, but are unwilling to articulate it in such words because it obviously looks bad. It's not good optics to say "Facebook, Microsoft, Boeing, and GE shouldn't have to pay that much for workers! Thus we need to have de facto open border." No, to say that might be revealing your cards too much and once more you don't want to feel evil doing it.

So you prefer to think you are some savior, and all the smiling benighted people will hold up their hands and sing your praises.

- - - Updated - - -

That you would frame it as a reward is ridiculous. They didn't do anything to deserve a reward. They didn't do anything to deserve a punishment. Because they didn't do anything that they had a choice in. Did you get to choose where you were raised? I didn't.

And 'cheap slave labor' is a nice talking point, but completely false. Average and median wage for them after DACA is more than double the federal minimum wage. Average annual salary is ~$36,000. Many are pursuing higher education.

They shouldn't be here. But they are here, and they are integrated into the economy and into society. It is both inhumane and economically stupid to kick them out.

So we reward illegal migrants, tell legal immigrants "Sorry, but we would feel bad and plus that 800,000 or so folk are needed to increase the labor pool!"

Many can pursue higher education elsewhere, and ply their talents in their respective homelands or if they are so gifted surely they can wait in the same line as others did.