Blue responded about BM

[Biomega]

But in reality, in your current progress roster, does this "humongous" gap really shine ? Are you really at the bottom of the recount ?

That's not a very objective way to go about it. Aggregated data averages are. "I'm not bottom so the class is fine" is a poor approach to the argument.

[Trapstarz]

Beeing able to do poorly and still have a high ceiling is a great advantage when you progress, when other DPS are heavily punished by movements and mecanics.

[Illana]

Beeing able to do poorly and still have a high ceiling is a great advantage when you progress, when other DPS are heavily punished by movements and mecanics.

what were seeing is that even though they are punished, they still outperform

[Biomega]

Beeing able to do poorly and still have a high ceiling is a great advantage when you progress, when other DPS are heavily punished by movements and mecanics.

That is the general idea, however the data doesn't seem to exactly support that. Even on the lowest mythic percentile brackets, BM is at the bottom. If movement etc. were limiting factors, you'd expect it to perform higher for people with less skill, i.e. people who are more likely to mess up due to movement. You have to go into mid to poor heroic brackets to see some of that, but classes are generally fairly close there because skill becomes a much more moderating factor. Balancing around bad play is generally not a good idea as it can lead to some very dangerous ripple effects. There's a reason they don't have super high skill peak classes either, skill-based extremes are something they like to avoid.

[Zenfoldor]

That is the general idea, however the data doesn't seem to exactly support that. Even on the lowest mythic percentile brackets, BM is at the bottom. If movement etc. were limiting factors, you'd expect it to perform higher for people with less skill, i.e. people who are more likely to mess up due to movement. You have to go into mid to poor heroic brackets to see some of that, but classes are generally fairly close there because skill becomes a much more moderating factor. Balancing around bad play is generally not a good idea as it can lead to some very dangerous ripple effects. There's a reason they don't have super high skill peak classes either, skill-based extremes are something they like to avoid.

This is the reason they nerfed fire mages at the beginning of the xpak. They took dps out of combustion because to miss a combustion phase caused extreme punishment. They leveled off the skill peak and the OP of fire mages went away.

The problem is they are inconsistant. BM is a really bad dps spec right now but very easy to play, but frost mage is as easy or easier to play and it's the best ST mage spec.

You can tell they want to give higher dps to higher skill cap specs or at least talents, but it is currently unfinished and very inconsistant across all the specs.

[NoShelter]

I generally prefer simpler rotations with high movement combined with complex and innovative fights. Siege of org was really fun.

Blizz seems to be leaning towards old stale boss mechanics, and creating false difficulty through goofy rotations and limiting movement. Wrong way to go, imo.

Give more classes movement like MoP and lets have some better fights.

[niil945]

Eh you clearly aren't interested in a debate. You made a blatantly obvious statement, while carefully dodging all details and facts in it, that may prove you wrong. You just want to look at it from as vague and distant a place as possible, because in that situation you're fairly correct. Because it's in the details of what you're saying, that you become wrong.

But it's allg man. Block me so you don't have to see my posts you hate so much. Rather than complaining without an interest in a detailed discussion.

Except you can't "prove him wrong" because your opinion is exactly that... an opinion. An opinion that's not based on objective reality. BM is marginally less difficult than Marks. The spread between the two is trivial. But this isn't a high skilled job it's a game, so that's to be expected. Pretending that Marks requires massively more skill than BM is laughable. And that applies to every spec in the game. If you actually put them on a scale with things that are truly difficult, playing each and every spec in WoW would be at the bottom of the scale. That was his point. It's not an opinion, that's a fact. When the premise of any argument you make is based on 'spec difficulty' and that's your justification for shitting all over other specs (in this case BM) your position is fallacious.

[Emerald Archer]

Except you can't "prove him wrong" because your opinion is exactly that... an opinion. An opinion that's not based on objective reality. BM is marginally less difficult than Marks. The spread between the two is trivial. But this isn't a high skilled job it's a game, so that's to be expected. Pretending that Marks requires massively more skill than BM is laughable. And that applies to every spec in the game. If you actually put them on a scale with things that are truly difficult, playing each and every spec in WoW would be at the bottom of the scale. That was his point. It's not an opinion, that's a fact. When the premise of any argument you make is based on 'spec difficulty' and that's your justification for shitting all over other specs (in this case BM) your position is fallacious.

Saying a spec is easy, isn't "shitting all over a spec" unless you're over-sensitive. Not sure how you're so offended over a comment about a spec in a video game.

To play BM and MM at an average level, like 70%, yeah mm is only very slightly harder.
To play BM and MM at a high level, like 95%-98%, mm is significantly harder than bm.
To play BM and MM at the very very top level, 99%-100% the difficulty gap gets closer again, because yeah, there's a lot you can do as bm, that might not give you the biggest dmg increase, but it is still a dmg increase, so mm is only slightly harder.

The fact that BM is easier than MM, isn't an opinion. It's a fact backed up by logs, and backed up by top players in both specs.

But there's nothing wrong with that, I don't get why you guys are so highly offended by the fact I'm suggesting it's easy. And then try to claim MM is just as faceroll, when you don't know how to play it. Taking a glance at the guide, doesn't show you half of what goes into the spec. Same as for BM, both specs have many many little details that aren't seen in a simple rotation guide read.

And you're clearly ignoring the added difficulty of movement management, which BM doesn't have to worry about at all.
That alone makes MM require a decent amount of skill over BM.

[Biomega]

I don't think people really argue that BM is NOT easier than MM. Even all rotation/priority concerns aside, the freedom of movement alone makes it less difficult.

But that isn't the issue.

The issue is the degree to which the difficulty vs. dps tradeoff is happening: not whether BM should be behind MM (it should) but BY HOW MUCH. Right now, we see that even on heavy movement fights like Avatar and even in the 10th percentile bracket on mythic (i.e. fairly poor player skill) MM absolutely crushes BM. You would expect to see BM and MM a lot closer on low skill levels and on movement heavy fights - but that just isn't the case. The only time these effects do become visible is, as I mentioned, on low heroic percentiles; but there all classes are fairly close together and skill plays a much much larger role than class balance, making those data precarious for balancing feedback.

In any even halfway serious raiding environment, BM is behind by too much. That gap is what it's about, not the fact that BM is lower than MM (and whether it should be lower in ALL situations is another debate). That gap is too large right now, and as ilvl scaling becomes more pronounced in the next tier, it will only widen more and more.

[Emerald Archer]

I don't think people really argue that BM is NOT easier than MM. Even all rotation/priority concerns aside, the freedom of movement alone makes it less difficult.

But that isn't the issue.

The issue is the degree to which the difficulty vs. dps tradeoff is happening: not whether BM should be behind MM (it should) but BY HOW MUCH. Right now, we see that even on heavy movement fights like Avatar and even in the 10th percentile bracket on mythic (i.e. fairly poor player skill) MM absolutely crushes BM. You would expect to see BM and MM a lot closer on low skill levels and on movement heavy fights - but that just isn't the case. The only time these effects do become visible is, as I mentioned, on low heroic percentiles; but there all classes are fairly close together and skill plays a much much larger role than class balance, making those data precarious for balancing feedback.

In any even halfway serious raiding environment, BM is behind by too much. That gap is what it's about, not the fact that BM is lower than MM (and whether it should be lower in ALL situations is another debate). That gap is too large right now, and as ilvl scaling becomes more pronounced in the next tier, it will only widen more and more.

This, 100%. BM should do less damage than MM because of its mobility, not simplicity. But the gap should be much smaller than it is now.

BM needs a small ST dps increase, but a very large aoe increase. The fact it's so mobile makes it barely ok now, on SOME fights, but that isn't good enough. And it will continue to get worse, as MM scales better.

[niil945]

Saying a spec is easy, isn't "shitting all over a spec" unless you're over-sensitive. Not sure how you're so offended over a comment about a spec in a video game.

To play BM and MM at an average level, like 70%, yeah mm is only very slightly harder.
To play BM and MM at a high level, like 95%-98%, mm is significantly harder than bm.
To play BM and MM at the very very top level, 99%-100% the difficulty gap gets closer again, because yeah, there's a lot you can do as bm, that might not give you the biggest dmg increase, but it is still a dmg increase, so mm is only slightly harder.

The fact that BM is easier than MM, isn't an opinion. It's a fact backed up by logs, and backed up by top players in both specs.

But there's nothing wrong with that, I don't get why you guys are so highly offended by the fact I'm suggesting it's easy. And then try to claim MM is just as faceroll, when you don't know how to play it. Taking a glance at the guide, doesn't show you half of what goes into the spec. Same as for BM, both specs have many many little details that aren't seen in a simple rotation guide read.

And you're clearly ignoring the added difficulty of movement management, which BM doesn't have to worry about at all.
That alone makes MM require a decent amount of skill over BM.

You're missing the point. Any spec in this game is easy. You're not measuring the difference in skill, you're measuring the spec based impact of that skill at various tiers and trying to pretend that the result is representative of the amount of skill. It's not. Your diatribe about differences between the specs is entirely meaningless, I never said BM was harder than Marks.

- - - Updated - - -

But that isn't the issue.

The issue is the degree to which the difficulty vs. dps tradeoff is happening: not whether BM should be behind MM (it should) but BY HOW MUCH.

Blizzard has stated that having a more difficult rotation isn't going to get someone more dps than other specs with an easier one. Feral druids are a great example of this. Having a complicated rotation doesn't equivocate to having the best damage output. Complexity is a preference. Each spec is a package of strengths and weaknesses coupled with specific playstyles that are a choice. Mobility absolutely should be a factor but how easy it is in relation to other specs to play shouldn't. No specs are hard to play.

[Biomega]

Blizzard has stated that having a more difficult rotation isn't going to get someone more dps than other specs with an easier one.

This is the inverse case, though. And they HAVE stated that there may be tradeoffs in DPS for easier gameplay.

[niil945]

This is the inverse case, though. And they HAVE stated that there may be tradeoffs in DPS for easier gameplay.

By all means feel free to link to it. I've never seen it.

[Biomega]

By all means feel free to link to it. I've never seen it.

I believe it was in the context of DH, where a talent choice made the rotation significantly easier by essentially trading an active for a passive ability; the DPS would be lower, but they said that's fine if it plays easier.

[niil945]

I believe it was in the context of DH, where a talent choice made the rotation significantly easier by essentially trading an active for a passive ability; the DPS would be lower, but they said that's fine if it plays easier.

Granted, I understand the point you're making, but you can't apply something specific to talents to entire specs like that out of context. Generally speaking Blizzard's stance on passive talents is that they throughput less potential damage than active ones used optimally, and that applies to beastmastery, marksman, and every other spec in the game equally. You're talking about intra-spec balance, not spec vs. spec balance. It's not the same thing at all.

[Darkynhalvos]

Beeing able to do poorly and still have a high ceiling is a great advantage when you progress, when other DPS are heavily punished by movements and mecanics.

When other dps do not have unlimited mobility and still outperform BM on high-movement fights, there's a problem.

[Trapstarz]

When other dps do not have unlimited mobility and still outperform BM on high-movement fights, there's a problem.

If they do no mistake and are cutting edge player, yes they still should outperfom any others mobility spec.
My point is that BM is more gentle with failure for a reason, beeing able to do okish when the fight is a total mess is good enough.

[Biomega]

My point is that BM is more gentle with failure for a reason, beeing able to do okish when the fight is a total mess is good enough.

But here's the thing though. Players in the mythic 10th percentile, i.e. the bottom 10% in terms of player skill, STILL absolutely destroy BM with MM on heavy movement fights. What good is "this is easier to do okay with" when even the worst players don't actually get anything out of it?

[threads]

So many people in denial in this thread. BM is nowhere near the same difficulty as a good MM. You play BM cause you can't make it as a MM just face it. Look at warcraftlogs, way more people running around on BM than MM even though it's bottom dps. It's a clear trade-off. If you want damage switch to MM and stop whining on forums.

[Biomega]

If you want damage switch to MM and stop whining on forums.

"Just play a better class/spec" is much more productive, you're right. That you're also talking about denial makes it all the more ironic.

I do agree though that there is a lot of hyperbole around that should have no place in a serious discussion (outside of comedic effect now and then, of course; I'm not a monster). The sky isn't falling, the world isn't ending, BM hunters aren't being benched left and right. But the inverse is also true - everything is not fine, this is not how it's supposed to be, and there is a need for something to be done.

The gap between MM and BM, while legitimate in principle, is too large. Plain and simple. And it's only going to get larger with the next tier. Now, they've already said there's a tuning pass before that - good. But voices need to be made heard in order for that tuning to be more than "buff damage by 4%", because the gap is simply too large for that.

What's a somewhat connected but also somewhat separate discussion, I feel, is whether MM should be ahead of BM in *all* scenarios. Or, in other words, what the BM tradeoff of DPS vs. mobility actually means in a world of real fight design where 80% spent on autorun is never going to happen. The premier example this tier is m-Avatar, a hectic fight with constant movement where BM still gets schooled hard by MM, even on low percentiles. If BM isn't even close to competing on a fight that takes its supposed niche near the realistic extreme, then what is that niche supposed to bring, really?