Argus: Turning a no-fly advocate

[spleen1015]

I'll take what we can get. Blizz has already said if they had to do it all over again they never would have added flying. This is their compromise. I'll take it.

[felrager]

Yes, we know they were to cheap to design it for flying.
What is it designed for though? It feels like they just took random clutter and mobbs and tossed them in at random.

Thats the issue. It's not about growing up, it's about Blizzard doing a poor job.

A lot of us are moveing over to something else of course but Blizzard needs to hear when they mess up becuase they seem to have lost the ability to tell themselves.

Oh and not everyone plays a DH.

It's almost like we're on a world that's been corrupted by fel energy for over a thousand years and it's like it's their homeworld or something and super populated with soldiers ready to kill us on sight because it's what they're ordered to do...

you're complaining about their design for a world that absolutely does not want us there. your tears do nothing but help the fel grow.

[Swampmoose]

Being a demon hunter I have the ability to get to places most people can't. And i do, because it's fun exploring on the ground. Argus in it's entirety is not designed at ALL for flying. There are random places I can't get to because of invisible walls that look like I totally should be able to cross. It's like vanilla in it's design in that it's just flat out not completed in areas they don't think most people will go.

That being said, all of you bitching about not being able to fly need to grow up. It's a game, if you don't like it do something else. The terrain isn't that irritating because we have this thing called "the jump button" that totally works on your mounts. If you're so lazy that pressing a few extra keys to navigate irritates you then you probably have other deeper issues making you mad and this is just your outlet. The devs can come up with whatever reason they want to not allow flying, it's their game. I like the ground for Argus, it makes sense that we can't fly and get shot down.

The only thing i'm really irritated with about argus is the leystone hoof plates and the demonsteel stirrups don't work on argus. THAT is frustrating.

If I had a dollar for every time some prepubescent told someone to grow up on these forums...

[Aggrophobic]

It's almost like we're on a world that's been corrupted by fel energy for over a thousand years and it's like it's their homeworld or something and super populated with soldiers ready to kill us on sight because it's what they're ordered to do...

you're complaining about their design for a world that absolutely does not want us there. your tears do nothing but help the fel grow.

Yeah, becuase realism is what they are going for, eh? Someone already had a thread about this but we would have been swarmed with millions and millions of demons the second we set out foot on Argus if that was what they were going for.
Gameplay over realism any day and the gameplay is not fun.

When a game is no longer fun the designers failed.

Oh and we would still be able to fly if they were going for realism. Can't see any anit-air defenses small enough to hit our dragons.

[Dhrizzle]

really disspaointing - devs are clearly designing now zones without Z axis to cut cost

How much do you think a "z-axis" costs for a WoW zone?

and which proves it best is saying that tanaan was not exackly the same type of end game zone as argus - thats open stright lie to our faces.

It isn't though, Tanaan was part of the original continent that shipped with WoD. It's closer to Orgi'la and Landfall than it is to Isle of Quel'danas and Timeless Isle.

- - - Updated - - -

Pathetic casuals crying because the "terrain is difficult". Oh boo hoo, diddums. Why didn't the Legion make it more hospitable for us? Are they racist towards us? Why are there no safe spaces on Argus? I'm feeling so oppressed in 7.3! You people are despicable.

Don't pull us casuals into this, I like having casual content that involves a bit of exploration and looking around the environment.

- - - Updated - - -

Damage control mode activated.
Seems quite a lot of people are annoyed by Blizzards arrogance.

Normal state of affairs, they were annoyed at Blizz's "arrogance" when they cut raid sizes to 10/25, and their "arrogance" when they started giving people more epics in 5-mans or from tokens, then again when they made raids scale in size and difficulty (plus every time Blizzard were "arrogant" enough to tweak that formula,) there was annoyance at Blizz's "arrogance" when they gave people too much grinding and again when they gave us nothing worth grinding for. Plus there's probably dozens or hundreds of things you could describe as "arrogance" if you really feel like it.

[Aggrophobic]

How much do you think a "z-axis" costs for a WoW zone?



It isn't though, Tanaan was part of the original continent that shipped with WoD. It's closer to Orgi'la and Landfall than it is to Isle of Quel'danas and Timeless Isle.

- - - Updated - - -



Don't pull us casuals into this, I like having casual content that involves a bit of exploration and looking around the environment.

- - - Updated - - -



Normal state of affairs, they were annoyed at Blizz's "arrogance" when they cut raid sizes to 10/25, and their "arrogance" when they started giving people more epics in 5-mans or from tokens, then again when they made raids scale in size and difficulty (plus every time Blizzard were "arrogant" enough to tweak that formula,) there was annoyance at Blizz's "arrogance" when they gave people too much grinding and again when they gave us nothing worth grinding for. Plus there's probably dozens or hundreds of things you could describe as "arrogance" if you really feel like it.

Ah yes, but Blizzard only jumpes to defend things like this when a LOT of people are upset.

[Katie45]

It absolutely can be in situations like a raid or M+ situation where there are multiple difficulties. But not when it's being used to excuse or gloss over poor design, like Argus.

It's not like players really have a choice with Argus, since WoW is a progression based game, and Argus has the newest content as well as the Netherlight crucible.

Telling someone to git gud when they're struggling with poor design also puts all the blame on the player, and doesn't acknowledge that the devs might share some of the responsibility too.

What you can't be bothered to remember where everything is, to remember what paths to take, lol this is the reason flying needs to remove completely

[Connll]

It's only good as long as there are players who pay their 15$ sub, PLUS the 20$ for the gold they want/need in game. If those are diminished, then, it's no good.

I am not sure if the current dev team sees the diminished playerbase as a bad thing. Remember shortly after Legion´s launch, when it was stated that the active sub numbers were "a bit higher than WoD", like that was somehow a great achievement?

Or, for a more recent example, the attitude answering the players´s questions a few pages ago. Did that looked like someone trying to make its customers/subscribers/playerbase feel valued and welcomed?

[rhorle]

Or, for a more recent example, the attitude answering the players´s questions a few pages ago. Did that looked like someone trying to make its customers/subscribers/playerbase feel valued and welcomed?

So they can't respond honestly. Gotcha. This is part of the problem that Blizzard faces. They communicate and people whine that they didn't do it the right way. They don't communicate and people whine they aren't communicating. They communicate on a few specific topics and people whine they are not communicating enough or on X topic instead of Y topic.

Talk about a toxic community.

[SirCowdog]

What you can't be bothered to remember where everything is, to remember what paths to take, lol this is the reason flying needs to remove completely

Way to completely miss the point and go after me personally.

[rhorle]

Way to completely miss the point and go after me personally.

But it isn't going after you personally. Argus isn't that confusing and you don't have personal experience because you have stated you don't play right now. About the only WQ that gives trouble is Varga because if you just follow the marker you will end up above its cave in the spider area. All it should take is doing it once to remember things or even a few times for those that have bad memories.

But remembering things is a part of playing a game for the times you can't remember there is WoWhead/google. Argus isn't bad design. It just is not designed to be an open experience where you can run in straight lines to get from A to B. A lot of zones are designed to be open but that doesn't make it poor or bad design that a zone (or 2) are not open.

[-Joker-]

But it isn't going after you personally. Argus isn't that confusing and you don't have personal experience because you have stated you don't play right now. About the only WQ that gives trouble is Varga because if you just follow the marker you will end up above its cave in the spider area. All it should take is doing it once to remember things or even a few times for those that have bad memories.

But remembering things is a part of playing a game for the times you can't remember there is WoWhead/google. Argus isn't bad design. It just is not designed to be an open experience where you can run in straight lines to get from A to B. A lot of zones are designed to be open but that doesn't make it poor or bad design that a zone (or 2) are not open.

He takes everything as a personal attack. Makes for an easy way to dismiss an argument, especially one that has merit and gives great examples as yours does.

[blackxero]

I really got no idea about this No Fly Whining, seriously its a planet torn apart by BURNING LEGION. Its a hostile planet controlled by most hostile force we know as of today. They are mean, mindless, and only know to DESTROY AND these spoon-feeding kids want straight roads so they go out there, kill some paper face demon out and again whine about no content or blah blah blah.
AND ... Your behavior in in-game world depicts your real world behavior so whiner will always be whiner in virtual or real world

[Connll]

Talk about a toxic community.

Well, yes. When you get someone defending an "my way or the highway" attitude from someone that is supposed to sell a service/product, thats solid evidence of toxidity poisoning the community.

[rhorle]

Well, yes. When you get someone defending an "my way or the highway" attitude from someone that is supposed to sell a service/product, thats solid evidence of toxidity poisoning the community.

The job of Orynx is not to sell a service or product. But to discuss with the community and share the thoughts of Blizzard or themselves on topics. You are demonstrating the toxic nature of the WoW community perfectly. You insult and insult just because you don't like what is being said. The posts by Orynx also were not a "My way or the highway" attitude nor were my posts defending that attitude.

Though if you want honesty it is Blizzards way or the highway. It is their product and they are the designers. You can offer feedback and they do listen but in the end if you don't like it leave.

[Connll]

The job of Orynx is not to sell a service or product. But to discuss with the community and share the thoughts of Blizzard or themselves on topics.

Nope. To "discuss with the community and share the thoughts of Blizzard or themselves on topics", has the purpose of convincing you to purchase their service, or to keep you interested enough to remain buying it. A.K.A selling.

You are demonstrating the toxic nature of the WoW community perfectly.

Of course I am. I´m describing your behavior.

You insult and insult just because you don't like what is being said.

Textbook Psychological Projection. Try harder.

The posts by Orynx also were not a "My way or the highway" attitude nor were my posts defending that attitude.

Don´t you want to at least try to look convincing?

Though if you want honesty it is Blizzards way or the highway.

See? You contradict yourself in the very next sentence.

It is their product and they are the designers. You can offer feedback and they do listen but in the end if you don't like it leave.

And offering feedback is exactly what I am doing. If my critic hits a bit too close to home, so that a few of the more toxic members of the community feel that their panties have been twisted somehow... not my problem.

[SirCowdog]

But it isn't going after you personally. Argus isn't that confusing and you don't have personal experience because you have stated you don't play right now. About the only WQ that gives trouble is Varga because if you just follow the marker you will end up above its cave in the spider area. All it should take is doing it once to remember things or even a few times for those that have bad memories.

But remembering things is a part of playing a game for the times you can't remember there is WoWhead/google. Argus isn't bad design. It just is not designed to be an open experience where you can run in straight lines to get from A to B. A lot of zones are designed to be open but that doesn't make it poor or bad design that a zone (or 2) are not open.

Yes, and had he worded his response as well as you we could have had a discussion. Instead he framed the question in a personal manner, then without even waiting for a response, went on to claim his implied insult was the reason flight should be removed.

Instead of promoting the merits of Argus(such as they are) he went with a straw man.


As for Argus not being meant as an open area where you can travel in straight lines:. I get that that's what Blizzard was going for. I just think it's doubling down on poor design decisions, or at the very least, poor execution. Why not let players fly, but shoot them down as so many pro-ground players like to say is the explanation? Wouldn't that also present the feeling of an inhospitable world full of enemies? And it would get players into all kinds of trouble with the ground(and its swarms of daze-happy baddies).

Why restrit the flight master whistle with a rep grind instead of locking it behind discovery or quest lines if the idea is to make players feel like they're invading a hostile work? Do the demons care how popular we are and suddenly stop preventing the whistle when a magic number is reached?

[rhorle]

See? You contradict yourself in the very next sentence.

It isn't a contradiction to say that a person wasn't posting with a my way or the highway attitude and then say it is Blizzards way or the high way. In the end it is Blizzards product and service so the direction they want to take it is the way they will regardless of what people say. If people don't like it they can accept it or move on.

That doesn't mean that everything Blizzard posts is using that attitude though a distinction you don't understand. That is the part of the toxic community that I am referring to. You attack then deny it. You don't understand distinctions and attack over it. Remember this started because you got your panties twisted over a Blizzard employee discussing candidly with the community. How is that not the toxicity you are now claiming I have?

- - - Updated - - -

Why not let players fly, but shoot them down as so many pro-ground players like to say is the explanation? Wouldn't that also present the feeling of an inhospitable world full of enemies? And it would get players into all kinds of trouble with the ground(and its swarms of daze-happy baddies).

So the solution to players complaining about being dazed now and mob density on their way from point A to point B will be solved by knocking them out of the sky and killing them or dropping them into hostile places. Right. That solves the issue completely. You are missing the mark entirely with the reason why people don't like Argus.

Blizzard has stated that restricting the flight masters whistle upgrade behind revered may have been a mistake. I don't think many have defended that as a good decision. Getting better is not a straw man and is entirely a valid answer to peoples complaints. We have been over this before. You weren't looking to discuss his response otherwise you would have. If a person is looking to discuss they will no matter how poorly worded they think someones response is. At least we know what your true intentions were after all.

[Woods7]

I am not sure if the current dev team sees the diminished playerbase as a bad thing. Remember shortly after Legion´s launch, when it was stated that the active sub numbers were "a bit higher than WoD", like that was somehow a great achievement?

It wasn't stated like that at all. It was just stated.

[Shakou]

Argus is really really nice. When there are few other players around. It's a total shitshow when it's crowded.