So does Alleria still hate the Horde?

[Deleted]

I am sometimes not sure what is worse. Alliance fanboys who exaggarate every negative deed done by their opponents so their pet races can be put on a pedestal, or Horde fanboys who ignore certain pieces of lore so they can construct a narrative that puts their pet race on a pedestal? I honestly can't tell. But it gets rather bothersome when you can't discuss things as they are without some faction fanboy raging in. I mean, let's look at this;



Here we have a chapter that;

1) Is explicitly called the Ashes of Quel'Thalas;

2) Asserts that the Horde terrorized the countryside, pillaged villages, and cut down every elf they could find. Note that the Horde was already north of the Elrendar River by that time (for those who are not good with geography, it is the river separating the current Ghostlands and Eversong Woods), as the Runestones, also north of that river, had already been desecrated.

3) Asserts the elves had not died in such numbers and their lands had not been so defiled since the ancient Troll Wars, when their race faced extinction.

4) Has the Alliance forces, which given the Horde's evident position north of the Elrendar must have been positioned directly south of Silvermoon City, bathed in
dragonfire, resulting in a roaring firestorm that envelops the surrounding forests, forcing the Alliance to seek refuge in Silvermoon.

5) Explicitly says that the blow to Quel'Thalas was so severe it would take the elves, a magical race that can rebuild cities in weeks, many years to recover. And that's when they still had the Sunwell.

Yet, despite all this, we have our genius, Mehrunes, claiming the Horde had done little damage to Quel'Thalas, perhaps burning and pillaging some woods and villages along the borders. And why? Because admitting otherwise would put a serious dent in his fanboy narrative. Lesson, kids? Don't be fanboys.

[TheVaryag]

Everyone decent hates the horde.

She won't change her mind at all. If anything, she would accept the horde as civilians of Azeroth but never making friends with then, let alone joining the blood elves. She will be an Alliance Champion as she always had been.

I sense an alliance bias over here boys.

It really doesn't matter If she accepts the Horde, they're there and they're staying If she likes It or not, It's not a democracy of Azeroth my alliance biased friend. If anyone has beef with the Horde they can try to balls up and tell them, although with corpse-warchief I doubt she'll care much If Orgrimmar was besieged again with Saurfang forced to take leadership position of the remaining orcs with Baine over the tauren and.. random troll over the Darkspears.

[Zulkhan]

I think it's important that Alleria remain hateful toward the Horde. Keep her true to her character. I'm a big fan of the Horde story (I've played both factions!), but I'll admit that many of these famous Alliance heroes have become "neutral". It's World of Warcraft; and yes, I know that we are dealing with bigger threats currently, but we still need to see that classic Alliance-Horde conflict.

So yeah, long story short, Alleria should remain hateful towards the Horde. She also needs to share some of her "anti-Horde" attitude with Turalyon.

You know a character is bad when it has to stay true to a sentiment regardless of the events occurring around simply because such stance is what "defines" it.

Alleria doesn't need to become an Horde lover. On the contrary, I believe she should maintain a degree of irrational hatred. But it would be idiotic enough to make her mindlessly maintain a certain stance just because of "muh much nostalgia, Alliance hero" when the situation regarding her people have drastically changed from the time she left Quel'Thalas. It's just dumb. And I know many people have grown an understandable distaste for neutral characters but you should face the fact that Alleria just fits the bill. Only utter ignorance and long past memories can justify such inflexible stance and only for so long you can keep the character in her frozen time bubble.

The dialogue makes me happy as I know Friendlyimmolation just has to be completely bent about it. Playable High Elves announced with next expansion would send the Horde/Blood Elf fanboys over the top. Maybe the Blood Elf fanboys will start realizing the High Elves have a place for themselves, and that place is in the Alliance.

Oh my, you believe it for real. High Elves being the next playable "race"? Are you serious?

Of course you're serious, considering how you're grasping even on tiny conversations like these to get the validation you seek. Just fucking hilarious.

Second, when Arthas invaded Quel'Thalas, he was no longer his own master. He lost his free will to Ner'zhul when taking Frostmourne, and the fact is that it was Ner'zhul who ordered him to invade Quel'Thalas. And do you want to know who Ner'zhul was? An orc.

It surely isn't an explanation that could work with Alleria specifically, considered how Arthas took nothing but personal pleasure and delight in torturing her very sister. "But an orc corrupted me!" ain't going to excuse Arthas of such personal deeds.

But some people in this subforum do.

I mean, people argue that Alleria would analyze the Scourge situation "logically" while ignoring that she went bonkers towards orcs in no different way than Sylvanas did towards humans.

The orcs destroyed their homeworld. They betrayed the Elements, their ancestors, and pretty much themselves.

Let alone were manipulated and played like a fiddle by a power-hungry warlock and the very Eredar Lord the Army of the Light fought against.

The orcs did everything they did as orcs. Arthas betrayed his humanity when he did what he did.

Can you relaborate this into something that make sense, please?

You framed your question as if her being affected by a human destroying her homeland is something understandable and natural. It is not, considering who this human was.

You mean the beloved heir of Lordaeron, a paladin of the Silver Hand? One of the best the human race had to offer? Yep, that makes the rest of humanity looks awesome indeed. The main reason why all this shit happened is precisely because Arthas wasn't some lone criminal, he possessed tons of trust and authority over one of the most powerful human kingdoms and people followed him left and right because of that, obeying his every command.

He's the three eyed raven.

That explains why Turalyon is such a shit character then.

[Triggered Fridgekin]

I wish they put more in to the customization of each faction rather than a "one size fits all". Like, for example, when Alleria jumps out to save a Horde and Turalyon she might only break Turalyon out or will spend the rest of the time talking shit about you until she knows more information. It would take more work especially if they incorporated it in various other cross faction aspects but it'd go a long way to allow each faction to have a unique experience.

I think something like this happened with Tyrande though and Horde players got upset about her wording so that's probably another large reason as to why they don't do it.

[Deleted]

It surely isn't an explanation that could work with Alleria specifically, considered how Arthas took nothing but personal pleasure and delight in torturing her very sister. "But an orc corrupted me!" ain't going to excuse Arthas of such personal deeds.

You said it yourself. Personal deeds. As such, it is absolutely illogical to judge anyone but Arthas for it. And here comes newsflash. Arthas is dead, rotting beneath the ground. A human paladin not unlike Alleria's husband has seen to that. Still, Alleria was not even remotely the point of that post.

[Zulkhan]

You said it yourself. Personal deeds. As such, it is absolutely illogical to judge anyone but Arthas for it.

That's true. However, Alleria's view of humans wasn't spectacular to begin with. And it's harder to dismiss a character like Arthas as "bad apple" when Arthas wasn't a bad apple at all among humanity. On the contrary, he was one of the race's top dogs. The heir of Lordaeron. There's not even need of much irrationality to distrust humanity as whole for the cursed journey Arthas underwent, as he wouldn't have achieved nothing of what he achieved without people following his orders. Now look at the matter from the perspective of someone who was known to 1) not value humanity as a whole in high regard and 2) being your average Windrunner irrational trainwreck and you got a powerful mix there.

[Deleted]

That's true. However, Alleria's view of humans wasn't spectacular to begin with.

I keep reading this put forth as an argument, but after re-reading Tides of Darkness, Beyond the Dark Portal, and Chronicle Vol. 2, I have found nothing supporting such a claim. There's little to nothing on Alleria's opinion towards anyone but the orcs and the trolls. Huh.

And it's harder to dismiss a character like Arthas as "bad apple" when Arthas wasn't a bad apple at all among humanity. On the contrary, he was one of the race's top dogs. There's not even need of much irrationality to distrust humanity as whole for the cursed journey Arthas underwent. Now look at the matter from the perspective of someone who was known to 1) not value humanity as a whole in high regard and 2) being your average Windrunner irrational trainwreck and you got a powerful mix there.

If we were to follow this logic, then she should hate even her own race because of Kael'thas and the cursed journey he underwent.

[Hyral]

She can hate the horde and still work/befriend heroes from it. It doesn't have to be extreme. You can have a special dislike for a certain group still like individual members from it while disagreeing with them.

From the event you quote she definitely seems to still hate it but able to work with people in it. Which is really the best and most realistic outcome after everything that happened.

[Combatbutler]

I keep reading this put forth as an argument, but after re-reading Tides of Darkness, Beyond the Dark Portal, and Chronicle Vol. 2, I have found nothing supporting such claim. There's little to nothing on Alleria's opinion towards anyone but the orcs and the trolls. Huh.

So you didn't read things like her ranting about that humans couldn't possibly understand true pain, loss and love, due to their short existence, or that she did not treat the human kings as kings, since they were all children to her?

If we were to follow this logic, then she should hate even her own race because of Kael'thas and the cursed journey he underwent.

There is a difference Alleria loved her people and as such is heavily biased. Take another Windrunner nut job as prime example, dear little Vereesa conspired with the most ruthless murderous horde racial leader left "alive" and was very close to switch sides. Despite knowing just what horrible things she has done over the years to her allies and friends.

So you have the Orc nut job
The I hate my own people nut job
And the I hate humans nut job.

All three quite psycho on their own with their own irrational hatred.

[Kynario]

People forget that she's not a real character and her personality and choices are affected by whatever the writers choose.

[Combatbutler]

People forget that she's not a real character and her personality and choices are affected by whatever the writers choose.

True, yet consistency should be maintained as much as possible, otherwise the story hurts even more than it already does.

[Zulkhan]

I keep reading this put forth as an argument, but after re-reading Tides of Darkness, Beyond the Dark Portal, and Chronicle Vol. 2, I have found nothing supporting such claim. There's little to nothing on Alleria's opinion towards anyone but the orcs and the trolls. Huh.

Combat already answered that and her comment about the human kings specifically is fitting, given how Arthas was none other but Terenas' own son, the heir to the throne of Lordaeron.

If we were to follow this logic, then she should hate even her own race because of Kael'thas and the cursed journey he underwent.

A third party could. But she's part of that people, a people to which she devoted her services and thus bias would strike. Unlike Vereesa, Alleria carried the typical elven arrogance around with her.

[Deleted]

So you didn't read things like her ranting about that humans couldn't possibly understand true pain, loss and love, due to their short existence, or that she did not treat the human kings as kings, since they were all children to her?

1) You do realize that when people have an emotional breakdown, they usually say rather aggressive things to those they are venting their frustration at, right? You know little of human behavioral patterns, don't you?

2) That had nothing to do the humans specifically, it was simply a matter of her experience versus their attempted authority over her. It's like saying that Tyrion Lannister mocking Joffrey and his majesty due to his experience and age means that Tyrion holds all people in no regard.

There is a difference Alleria loved her people and as such is heavily biased. Take another Windrunner nut job as prime example, dear little Vereesa conspired with the most ruthless murderous horde racial leader left "alive" and was very close to switch sides. Despite knowing just what horrible things she has done over the years to her allies and friends.

So you have the Orc nut job
The I hate my own people nut job
And the I hate humans nut job.

All three quite psycho on their own with their own irrational hatred.

Well, but despite her irrationality, which is arguably the worst of the three, Vereesa still did not do it. And now take Alleria, who's the least irrational (I mean, her hatred is the least irrational of the three).

[Combatbutler]

1) You do realize that when people have an emotional breakdown, they usually say rather aggressive things to those they are venting their frustration at, right? You know little of human behavioral patterns, don't you?

It fits perfectly, since she does not treat even the most powerful humans with the same respect she would an elven lord, she might have been very angry with turalyon, but the underlying tone is there, even before their confrontation.

2) That had nothing to do the humans specifically, it was simply a matter of her experience versus their attempted authority over her. It's like saying that Tyrion Lannister mocking Joffrey and his majesty due to his experience and age means that Tyrion holds all people in no regard.

They were human kings she chose not to pay them the respect the title deserves, because they were children to her it is just that simple.

Well, but despite her irrationality, which is arguably the worst of the three, Vereesa still did not do it. And now take Alleria, who's the least irrational (I mean, her hatred is the least irrational of the three).

But you have to factor in that of all the three sisters she is the mentally weakest, neither Sylvanas or Vereesa were driven to a suicidal rage or started a genocidal campaign due to the loss of their brother and extended family they still kept on functioning. Vereesa finally snapped when her children were in danger and it took undeath to put Sylvanas on Allerias level of zeal, that is very telling in itself.

And then blizz decided to grant her void powers, the one power that is the most corrupting of the mind. Just hilarious, what could possibly go wrong....

[Deleted]

It fits perfectly, since she does not treat even the most powerful humans with the same respect she would an elven lord, she might have been very angry with turalyon, but the underlying tone is there, even before their confrontation.



They were human kings she chose not to pay them the respect the title deserves, because they were children to her it is just that simple.

Again, that had nothing to do with humanity, one was a natural emotional reaction, other was experience versus authority. Have you seen Aliens? Look at how Vasquez treats Gorman. Do you think it is because she is racist? No, it is not. Simple as that.

And that's not to mention that the very basis of Alleria's character is that she no qualms with mocking authority. Did with Anasterian, did it with Xe'ra. Should I know assume she holds high elves in no regard as well?

But you have to factor in that of all the three sisters she is the mentally weakest, neither Sylvanas or Vereesa were driven to a suicidal rage or started a genocidal campaign due to the loss of their brother and extended family they still kept on functioning. Vereesa finally snapped when her children were in danger and it took undeath to put Sylvanas on Allerias level of zeal, that is very telling in itself.

And then blizz decided to grant her void powers, the one power that is the most corrupting of the mind. Just hilarious, what could possibly go wrong....

Emotionally, not mentally. And this is extremely arguable, as we don't know how close each of the sisters was with Lirath, and what exactly was Vereesa and Sylvanas doing during the time, how they reacted.

[Combatbutler]

Again, that had nothing to do with humanity, one was a natural emotional reaction, other was experience versus authority. Have you seen Aliens? Look at how Vasquez treats Gorman. Do you think it is because she is racist? No, it is not. Simple as that.

And that's not to mention that the very basis of Alleria's character is that she no qualms with mocking authority. Did with Anasterian, did it with Xe'ra. Should I know assume she holds high elves in no regard as well?

It fits in the regard that she did not stop there and threw all of these nice insults into Turalyons face, because they fit perfectly and yes she acts if she deems it necessary, but only if she deems it necessary, she obeyed Anastarian in every other matter the only reason she did march south was because she believed the threat to Quel'thalas was taken too lightly and decided to make certain said threat does not reach her home. Compare that to the human kings which she treated like children in times of peace.

Why should she hold high elves with no regard? Why should she hold blood elves with no regard? These are both her people one of her closest friends currently leads Quel'thalas and her sister leads the silver covenant, it would be more what the hell is going on here.

Emotionally, not mentally. And this is extremely arguable, as we don't know how close each of the sisters was with Lirath, and what exactly was Vereesa and Sylvanas doing during the time, how they reacted.

Being emotionally unstable is a state of mind and keeping emotions in check needs considerable strength. Sylvanas kept it together until the very end, it is certain she was far more level headed than her sister, though Vereesa is quite difficult to tell, since she didn't do much all of her life.

[Deleted]

It fits in the regard that she did not stop there and threw all of these nice insults into Turalyons face, because they fit perfectly and yes she acts if she deems it necessary, but only if she deems it necessary, she obeyed Anastarian in every other matter the only reason she did march south was because she believed the threat to Quel'thalas was taken too lightly and decided to make certain said threat does not reach her home. Compare that to the human kings which she treated like children in times of peace.

Why should she hold high elves with no regard? Why should she hold blood elves with no regard? These are both her people on of her closest friends currently leads Quel'thalas and her sister leads the silver covenant, it would be more what the hell is going on here.

I've already explained it. But you know what? Read it as you want. I've already wasted too much time on this topic, especially since the originally quoted post had nothing to do with Alleria in the first place.

Sylvanas kept it together until the very end, it is certain she was far more level headed than her sister, though Vereesa is quite difficult to tell, since she didn't do much all of her life.

Again, we don't know that. We know literally zero on Sylvanas between the Horde's invasion of Quel'Thalas and the Scourge's invasion of Quel'Thalas. But whatever, imagine it as you will.

[Combatbutler]

I've already explained it. But you know what? Read it as you want. I've already wasted too much time on this topic, and the originally quoted posted had nothing to do with Alleria in the first place.

Well then lets agree to disagree

Again, we don't know that. We know literally zero on Sylvanas between the Horde's invasion of Quel'Thalas and the Scourge's invasion of Quel'Thalas. But whatever, imagine it as you will.

We know how Sylvanas behaved while she send her friends to die to stall for time, while Quel'thalas burned around her, while she realized they were betrayed from within and decided to throw herself in Arthas way to stall for time so that the magi could figure out a way to turn this around. She did not break at any point in life, only after she was brought back did she slowly turn into the monstrosity she is today.

[Zulkhan]

Again, that had nothing to do with humanity, one was a natural emotional reaction, other was experience versus authority. Have you seen Aliens? Look at how Vasquez treats Gorman. Do you think it is because she is racist? No, it is not. Simple as that.

And that's not to mention that the very basis of Alleria's character is that she no qualms with mocking authority. Did with Anasterian, did it with Xe'ra. Should I know assume she holds high elves in no regard as well?

Saying "it has nothing to do with humanity" is rather dishonest since her comment about those kings being mere children compared to her is strictly tied to them being humans rather than elves. It isn't about them representing authority, it's about them proclaiming an authority she doesn't respect simply because they're short-lived humans. The logical flow looks pretty obvious to me.

And no, mocking authority isn't really a trait of Alleria. Being rebellious and independent (main reason for why she never took the Ranger-General title Sylvanas later wore) are her actual traits. She never mocked Anastherian, in fact she always obeyed her orders and respected her people's authority. Nonetheless, being a rebellious type of character, she still decided to take matters on her own hands when she happened to disagree with said authority. Not really comparable to deem human's monarchs unworthy of any particular respect because they lived 1/10 of one elf peasant's life.

[Thimagryn]

Agree with people saying current Horde is different from WC2 Horde. That being said, current Alliance is also very different from WC2 Alliance, so it kinda goes both ways.