If Jaina's A Hero in The Next Xpac, Should We Forgive Her?

[Friendlyimmolation]

1., Ethnic cleansing, oh come on. She was removing a faction from a city. Whose continued presence remained a threat. She has the legal right.
2. Jaina was securing a WMD. The Kirin tor's doctrine is the security and safe use of magic. In a way of a magic police force. The night elves had it, so she helped them keep the misuse of magic. Well single person if you don't count songweaver, or Aethas knowing this.
3. She was the LEADER of Dalaran. So yes, she can ask it. and the council made her the leader.
4. I was refering to the ones on the street.

Dalaran was never under the leadership of a monarch. Jaina can call a vote, she can call a vote. That was her privilege as their leader.

[thebigman154]

i think yeah but i want some TRUE horde vs ally conflict

[Doodlibopp]

i think yeah but i want some TRUE horde vs ally conflict

Cant do that because if the horde has any sort of minimal gain the alliance will complain for years about horde favoritism until blizzard kills saurfang, baine and lor'themar which will also be horde favoritism unless an alliance leader delivers the finishing blow to them because the story would be too horde focused if they just died without alliance being the ones to kill them.

[Deleted]

Yea maybe Horde retreat was right decision but how they did it? I mean they just pack and go - no communication no help to cover each others retreat.

Retreat horn sound maybe?

FFS watch quest again. She against ALLYING with Horde cowards because she doesn't trust them anymore - and she have good reasons to.

PS Its tradition - when A and H united against common enemy Horde always screw things. Wrathgate was merely a set up.

Yes and then she left Alliance too and let us handle the burning legion alone and she did nothing whole legion.

Wrathgate. There were loses on both sides. And those undeads who attack us were part of burning legion under command of Varimathas and not Sylvanas.

[thebigman154]

Cant do that because if the horde has any sort of minimal gain the alliance will complain for years about horde favoritism until blizzard kills saurfang, baine and lor'themar which will also be horde favoritism unless an alliance leader delivers the finishing blow to them because the story would be too horde focused if they just died without alliance being the ones to kill them.

oh come on we are paying with horde presence on argus

[Aliven]

We have Lor'Themar. Come and try.

I'm talking about Sunreavers.

[OverFanNisseFrasse]

oh come on we are paying with horde presence on argus

With Lady Liadrin and that nightborn guy? Doesn't feel much of a "Horde Presence" to be honest. But I actully don't mind, I don't really mind that the are mainly alliance characters now going to Argus and having a time of their life, I am cool with that.

But what I ain't cool with is leaving Horde in a broken state, Horde have never feelt so underwhelmed and disorganized after Garrosh and Vol'jins' death. I ain't gonna whitewash Garrosh for we all already know things he have done. But during his regim it feel that Horde was really powerful! And also very organized, untile the end of MoP that is. Then Vol'jin came in charge, he didn't do much, the horde didn't really feel as powerful as it once was, but at least the horde was sort of holding togather(with glue and duct tape).

And then he died and Sylvanas becomes the one in charge, and directly she does some shady things, and after that, nothing more. The Horde for me feels pathathic for the momment. They should have done a even more of a transparent overlap from Garrosh to Vol'jin, show that it's people, the Horde, actully stand united underneth Vol'jin. As I never feelt that, and a something in game about the Orcs leader should been shown aswell, how Saurfang gets the position of leadership over the Orcs, and relationship between all the races as it's people.

As for Jaina for this thread which I already mentioned, as a Alliance Player, I don't really trust her, she turn her coat more often then a spinning wind turbine, and as for a Horde Player, why would I want to work with someone that doesn't trust me, want me dead and want my faction dismantled?

[Lodreh]

I mean they blew a horn of retreat and they were being attacked way harder than the alliance they hardly had time to blow the horn let alone give some kind of signal nobody thought of preparing before hand to let the alliance know. This nonsense of communication is bullshit honestly seeing as Demons filled their position as soon as they fled...

Hearing a horn signaling that your covering fire is retreating does not give you an opportunity to retreat. The Alliance is holding a line... they have to wait until their gunship shows up... clear enough of the skies to get close and then break formation and fall back. By the time the gunship arrives the Horde are at the docks. The Horde used the Alliance to make their escape. There are no two ways about it. Was the Horde position being overrun? Yes. To survive did the Horde have to retreat? Yes. That does not change the fact that by doing so it was at the direct expense of the Alliance. Lok'tar Ogar indeed.

[Mehrunes]

The context of the betrayal she believes the Horde committed might also be a factor. Perhaps instead of believing they abandoned the Alliance to die, she simply believes them to be too weak, disorganized, what have you to be reliable. When the Council voted to let them back in she said, iirc, that the Horde would eventually show their true colors. Khadgar was saying we all needed to work together, maybe Jaina was thinking they were too weak to help. Unreliable help can be in some cases worse than no help at all. Maybe she wasn't referring to a flat out betrayal, but that their strength would fail at another vital moment and more lives would be lost.

Kinda uncertain. While on one hand she calls them cowards in both Dalaran during the vote, as well as in Stormwind immediately after the Broken Shore, on the other hand she also literally says that the Horde left them to die. Also on both occasions. Which in turn makes it questionable what she meant by calling them cowards, given the full scope of her accusations.

1., Ethnic cleansing, oh come on. She was removing a faction from a city. Whose continued presence remained a threat. She has the legal right.

Given how they were of specific ethnicity, the textbook definition of cleansing. For gods sake, that's what the word "purge" is synonym to in such a context. Same goes to removing people by force from territory, which was Jaina's stated goal. And she had no legal right, because, again, Dalaran is ruled by the Council of Six, not one individual. When Kel'thuzad was suspected of treason, he was apprehended by multiple Council members, not just Antonidas.

2. Jaina was securing a WMD. The Kirin tor's doctrine is the security and safe use of magic. In a way of a magic police force. The night elves had it, so she helped them keep the misuse of magic. Well single person if you don't count songweaver, or Aethas knowing this.

Except it's in no way a magic police force, let alone one with authority to impose itself on the Horde or the Alliance. Neither is their doctrine some kind of magic security. The very reason for Malygos targeting them was how unsafe their practices were. And that's why some Kirin Tor defected to him. But even if the two above points were correct, that does not negate the fact that the Alliance and the Horde were at war, with Jaina aiding the Alliance personally. Including her personally capturing Horde prisoners of war and/or killing Horde soldiers (depending on what her traps did). There's no way in hell that was not a breach of Dalaran's neutrality.

3. She was the LEADER of Dalaran. So yes, she can ask it. and the council made her the leader.

Except as we were shown time and time again, the Council rules, not the leader. The leader doesn't even have a tie-breaker vote in case of a tie, as seen in Tides of War. The only shown purpose of the leader was representative function.

4. I was refering to the ones on the street.

And that changes what?

Yea maybe Horde retreat was right decision but how they did it? I mean they just pack and go - no communication no help to cover each others retreat.

You should check your ears, because Varian clearly heard the horn signal.

FFS watch quest again. She against ALLYING with Horde cowards because she doesn't trust them anymore - and she have good reasons to.

PS Its tradition - when A and H united against common enemy Horde always screw things. Wrathgate was merely a set up.

Because Alliance is so trustworthy when they start a war over the actions of people who they know betrayed the Horde first, then despite attempts at reconciliation break a trade treaty made to facilitate peace over the same incident months later, then Jaina out of all people breaks the truce when her Northwatch forces attack the Barrens. So on and so forth. And when it comes to things like Wrathgate, where Horde rebels affected the Alliance, the Alliance also had their fair share of that, like Fandral and Benedictus attacking Thrall.

[Swalload]

You'll just feel however the story tells you to because just like Garrosh they have no fucking idea what they're doing with the schizophrenic mess that is the writing of her ambitions.

Very much this. Also this is a role playing game, you play the role Blizzard wants you to, so you're just gonna have to eat her out if they want you to.

[Mehrunes]

Hearing a horn signaling that your covering fire is retreating does not give you an opportunity to retreat. The Alliance is holding a line... they have to wait until their gunship shows up... clear enough of the skies to get close and then break formation and fall back. By the time the gunship arrives the Horde are at the docks. The Horde used the Alliance to make their escape. There are no two ways about it. Was the Horde position being overrun? Yes. To survive did the Horde have to retreat? Yes. That does not change the fact that by doing so it was at the direct expense of the Alliance. Lok'tar Ogar indeed.

Given how both sides were fighting on different fronts, with the demons from either side being unable to quickly reach the other battlefield, how exactly did the Horde retreat at Alliance's expense? Especially since he gunship arrived moments later and covered the anti-air. Speaking of which, given how the Horde had to cover Alliance from the flying demons before the gunship arrived, which robbed the Horde on their front from range support, because the Alliance couldn't bring their ranged forces for some reason means that if anything, it's the Alliance that was in beneficial fighting position at the Horde's expense, forcing them to split their forces in two, with the Alliance effectively having one and a half army on their side, all because Varian once again showed strategic capabilities of a rock.

[Highwhale]

We have Lor'Themar. Come and try.

High/Blood Elves were almost annihilated 3 times in history when they tried to nuke someone on their own. Don't kid yourself - your Lor'Thremar couldn't even handle remnants of scourge on his own without Forsaken aid.

Sylvanas blew her horn to signal the retreat and call her Val'kyr. The Alliance heard it - That's how they knew she was retreating, and they very clearly say this in the cinematic.

Instead of thinking "They're in danger and need assistance," they simply said "Damn those Horde, leaving us stranded!" They gave no thought to the Horde's well being in their own fight, only how the Horde was supposed to support them.

I know about horn. But it doesn't change anything - Horde pack and go leaving Alliance in surrounding of Legion forces. Alliance was at frontline - Horde was covering flank. Any idiot will say to you Horde had easier way to retreat. Its not how allies act. And OFCOURSE it was dangerous - we were fighting Legion after all. Remember Hyjal?

Retreat horn sound maybe?

First - horn was mostly for summoning Valkyries. Second read above please.

Yes and then she left Alliance too and let us handle the burning legion alone and she did nothing whole legion.

And what Sylvanas did after Broken Shore? Attacked neutral faction in order to get more Valkyries and made dealt with Helya - risking to sabotage Odyn who was ready to sent his titanforged as cannon fodder for us.

Wrathgate. There were loses on both sides. And those undeads who attack us were part of burning legion under command of Varimathas and not Sylvanas.

Those undeads were originally from Forsaken ranks. Varimathas was set in high ranking position by Sylvanas. Leadership is not only right to order - its also responsibilities.

You should check your ears, because Varian clearly heard the horn signal.

Yo! Turn on your brain before posting! Thanks!

[Boraal]

She has done nothing to be sorry for.

Other than abandoning us as the Legion were on our doorstep?

[littlelark]

Honestly it depends on how good her outfit is

[Doodlibopp]

I know about horn. But it doesn't change anything - Horde pack and go leaving Alliance in surrounding of Legion forces. Alliance was at frontline - Horde was covering flank. Any idiot will say to you Horde had easier way to retreat. Its not how allies act. And OFCOURSE it was dangerous - we were fighting Legion after all. Remember Hyjal?

The horn changes everything seeing as you said

Yea maybe Horde retreat was right decision but how they did it? I mean they just pack and go - no communication no help to cover each others retreat.

They obviously communicated the retreat as much as they could seeing as they blew the fucking horn that let the alliance know they were retreating...
What do you want them to do? Send someone to tell the alliance they are retreating and hold the position even longer? Cause if that is your mindset you are just too alliance biased. Thrall was unable to fight, Baine was at a point where he was struggling with 1 fel guard, Vol'jin got stabbed, they were being flanked and they had legion ships shooting lasers at them. The horde was actually losing forces left and right when they retreated unlike the alliance who got to retreat before anything happened since the horde blew the horn.

Its not like the legion forces that were fighting the horde got to march and attack the alliance as well anyways... The horde retreating literally did nothing but force the alliance to retreat as well and THAT is when gul'dan summoned a giant inferno that ends up fucking the alliance... He was going to summon it eventually once the alliance started to retreat because that was his plan all along i dont see how knowing the horde had 3 leaders down and telling the alliance its time to go would have let them do anything different.

First - horn was mostly for summoning Valkyries. Second read above please.

Now THAT doesnt change anything. They blew the horn and the alliance IMMEDIATELY heard it and IMMEDIATELY started retreating. All the horde could have done is die more so that varian got to live which is pretty selfish of you to ask considering your enemy's were not nearly as much a threat as the hordes.

And what Sylvanas did after Broken Shore? Attacked neutral faction in order to get more Valkyries and made dealt with Helya - risking to sabotage Odyn who was ready to sent his titanforged as cannon fodder for us.

Doesnt change the fact that Jaina also left because she would rather see the world burn than work with the horde which is just stupid since they would do worse to everybody than the horde did to jaina.

Those undeads were originally from Forsaken ranks. Varimathas was set in high ranking position by Sylvanas. Leadership is not only right to order - its also responsibilities.

Lol Pretending the high ranking members of the alliance dont betray them...

Yo! Turn on your brain before posting! Thanks!

Aye! Turn off your bias before posting!

[LaserChild9]

And I'm saying that for every "Well they deserved it" story, there's a "Well they deserved it" right back at the ones saying "Well they deserved it."

It being for good reason is not something that ends wars, it's what starts them.

Yeeeaah... No. In the example we have been discussing, the Orcs attacked Azeroth, Azeroth defeated them but couldn't send them back and couldn't set them free, so they got put in internment camps. End of. What you seem to be saying is that Azeroth deserved being invaded? That's the only sense I can make out of someone saying that the Alliance "deserved it right back" in this situation.

Sylvanas blew her horn to signal the retreat and call her Val'kyr. The Alliance heard it - That's how they knew she was retreating, and they very clearly say this in the cinematic.

Instead of thinking "They're in danger and need assistance," they simply said "Damn those Horde, leaving us stranded!" They gave no thought to the Horde's well being in their own fight, only how the Horde was supposed to support them.

This agree with, but in defence of the Alliance, it was only Jaina and Greymane that seem to have thought that. While they are members of the Alliance, they don't represent the Alliance as a whole but it was a dick move from the 2 of them, using a tragic situation to try and further their own agenda's.

[Doodlibopp]

Hearing a horn signaling that your covering fire is retreating does not give you an opportunity to retreat. The Alliance is holding a line... they have to wait until their gunship shows up... clear enough of the skies to get close and then break formation and fall back. By the time the gunship arrives the Horde are at the docks. The Horde used the Alliance to make their escape. There are no two ways about it. Was the Horde position being overrun? Yes. To survive did the Horde have to retreat? Yes. That does not change the fact that by doing so it was at the direct expense of the Alliance. Lok'tar Ogar indeed.

Yes it does. They didnt get overrun by any felbats or the legion forces the horde was dealing with so obviously since they heard the horn and started to retreat they were able to retreat before shit actually hit the fan. The only reason they lost varian is because gul'dan summoned the inferno which he would have done anyways. There was no way the horde and alliance were going to win so as soon as the alliance started to retreat he was going to do that and asking the horde to stay longer when they were in much worse shape is laughable and every character knows it thats why only genn and jaina who are both nothing but hot headed idiots at this time complain about it.

I also dont know why the alliance keep using lok'tar ogar in this situation... Thinking its being used mockingly when it just makes you look foolish
FIrst of all this isnt the only time the horde has had to retreat... its just the only time the alliance has decided to try to use it to mock the horde for retreating but its also the only one that makes you look foolish since that is an ORC saying and in MoP we killed off most the orcs and the orc leadership is not in command of the horde anymore... So the term really isnt valid the only time the alliance think they are cleverly using the slogan to mock them.

[gcsmith]

Kinda uncertain. While on one hand she calls them cowards in both Dalaran during the vote, as well as in Stormwind immediately after the Broken Shore, on the other hand she also literally says that the Horde left them to die. Also on both occasions. Which in turn makes it questionable what she meant by calling them cowards, given the full scope of her accusations.




Given how they were of specific ethnicity, the textbook definition of cleansing. For gods sake, that's what the word "purge" is synonym to in such a context. Same goes to removing people by force from territory, which was Jaina's stated goal. And she had no legal right, because, again, Dalaran is ruled by the Council of Six, not one individual. When Kel'thuzad was suspected of treason, he was apprehended by multiple Council members, not just Antonidas.




Except it's in no way a magic police force, let alone one with authority to impose itself on the Horde or the Alliance. Neither is their doctrine some kind of magic security. The very reason for Malygos targeting them was how unsafe their practices were. And that's why some Kirin Tor defected to him. But even if the two above points were correct, that does not negate the fact that the Alliance and the Horde were at war, with Jaina aiding the Alliance personally. Including her personally capturing Horde prisoners of war and/or killing Horde soldiers (depending on what her traps did). There's no way in hell that was not a breach of Dalaran's neutrality.




Except as we were shown time and time again, the Council rules, not the leader. The leader doesn't even have a tie-breaker vote in case of a tie, as seen in Tides of War. The only shown purpose of the leader was representative function.




And that changes what?




You should check your ears, because Varian clearly heard the horn signal.




Because Alliance is so trustworthy when they start a war over the actions of people who they know betrayed the Horde first, then despite attempts at reconciliation break a trade treaty made to facilitate peace over the same incident months later, then Jaina out of all people breaks the truce when her Northwatch forces attack the Barrens. So on and so forth. And when it comes to things like Wrathgate, where Horde rebels affected the Alliance, the Alliance also had their fair share of that, like Fandral and Benedictus attacking Thrall.

Northwatch attacked the barrens only after the NE were attacked.

[Kallisto]

Northwatch attacked the barrens only after the NE were attacked.

No it was before. Barrens were attacked prior to it being split in two. Garrosh marched in Ashenvale after Barrens split.

[Mehrunes]

Northwatch attacked the barrens only after the NE were attacked.

Yeah, no. Garrosh invaded Ashenvale only after the Cataclysm happened, to secure resources that were direly needed because of it (and also because of Night Elves ceasing trade before that). Northwatch attacked Crossroads and captured Honor's Stand before the Cataclysm.

High/Blood Elves were almost annihilated 3 times in history when they tried to nuke someone on their own. Don't kid yourself - your Lor'Thremar couldn't even handle remnants of scourge on his own without Forsaken aid.

Except the Scourge remnant was already in place. With Sunwell reignited, Quel'thalas' defenses should be back with it and even dragons couldn't breach them. And Scourge required someone on the inside to even enter to begin with.

I know about horn. But it doesn't change anything - Horde pack and go leaving Alliance in surrounding of Legion forces. Alliance was at frontline - Horde was covering flank. Any idiot will say to you Horde had easier way to retreat. Its not how allies act. And OFCOURSE it was dangerous - we were fighting Legion after all. Remember Hyjal?

It changes your idiotic claim that there was no communication. Also, given how Alliance had a gunship in reserve, they had the easier way to retreat. Even without it, the factions would have had the exact same way to retreat. The unblocked path to the location where they fought Krosus. And that's before you consider the circumstances of the battle's development, where the Horde was faced with spaceships and the Alliance was still faced only with ground troops. So yeah, only an idiot would try to pretend the Horde had it easier. You actually managed to make a valid point, though it seems to be by accident.

As for Hyjal, both the Horde and the Alliance also had to withdraw, without the Alliance actually warning the Horde and without the both of them warning the Night Elves. For some reason I don't see you bitching about it. Good job shooting yourself in the foot with your amazing example.

First - horn was mostly for summoning Valkyries. Second read above please.

And yet the Horde reacted to it and started to withdraw without anything else telling them to.

And what Sylvanas did after Broken Shore? Attacked neutral faction in order to get more Valkyries and made dealt with Helya - risking to sabotage Odyn who was ready to sent his titanforged as cannon fodder for us.

Helya was nothing to us at the time she made the deal and her actions in regards to Val'kyr were happening concurrently with the Odyn thing, so it's not like Odyn was already our ally, as well as it put her in a position when she was unaware of that development since she wasn't there.

Those undeads were originally from Forsaken ranks. Varimathas was set in high ranking position by Sylvanas. Leadership is not only right to order - its also responsibilities.

Responsibilities aren't endless. Forsaken stopped being responsible for Varimathras' actions the moment he stood in open rebellion to them. Because if you'd be consistent and not in constant state of triggering about the Forsaken, by your shitty logic it would have been Scourge's responsibility.

Yo! Turn on your brain before posting! Thanks!

Instead of flailing around like a blind child, try to support your bullshit remarks with anything. It doesn't even have to be tangible, because you're incapable of that, but in this case you have nothing. Then again you wouldn't have much even if you tried to substantiate your shitpost, because your claim that there was no communication is pure, unfiltered horseshit and as such you'd have to bend over backwards at least 50 times before you could pretend that a post pointing that out was brainless.

I also dont know why the alliance keep using lok'tar ogar in this situation... Thinking its being used mockingly when it just makes you look foolish
FIrst of all this isnt the only time the horde has had to retreat... its just the only time the alliance has decided to try to use it to mock the horde for retreating but its also the only one that makes you look foolish since that is an ORC saying and in MoP we killed off most the orcs and the orc leadership is not in command of the horde anymore... So the term really isnt valid the only time the alliance think they are cleverly using the slogan to mock them.

It never meant "never retreat" even in case of Orcs. Anyone claiming that is either straw-manning the Horde or simply ignorant of the lore. The Orcs weren't military idiots. Even Garrosh, the most lok'tar Orc to ever ogar, retreated just from Ashenvale alone multiple times. Orgrim retreated from Lordaeron. So on and so forth. The saying should be viewed from the macro perspective of the whole conflict, not just individual skirmishes. And their newer backstory of their former relations with the Ogres where Orcs were enslaved, with Orcs' heavy resentment towards that, indicates that it's "victory or death" in context of "over subjugation" or general succumbing to the enemy. Since the history recently repeated itself and Orcs first were tricked into servitude to the Legion and then were imprisoned in internment camps, the feelings behind lok'tar ogar were only refreshed.