Is critical strike actually the worst stat for fire now?

[lockybalboa]

Here is the writeup on icy-veins.I find that quite surprising, https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/fire-m...-stat-priority So are we really to stack mastery for everything, since it is the best for both single and cleave fights supposedly?

[Eldeluc]

You are probably better off following the guides from altered-time.com since they are a lot more detailed and even have video guides.

altered-time.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4453
Your stat weights will depend on many factors; talents, what tier bonusses you have, is the encounter single target/cleave or aoe and which legendaries you use.

altered-time.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4640
This thread can give you a general idea of stat weights but it's best to always sim yourself. Raidbots.com offers an easy way to do so.

[lockybalboa]

You are probably better off following the guides from altered-time.com since they are a lot more detailed and even have video guides.

altered-time.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4453
Your stat weights will depend on many factors; talents, what tier bonusses you have, is the encounter single target/cleave or aoe and which legendaries you use.

altered-time.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4640
This thread can give you a general idea of stat weights but it's best to always sim yourself. Raidbots.com offers an easy way to do so.

Thanks a lot for the links!

[Zenfoldor]

Here is the writeup on icy-veins.I find that quite surprising, https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/fire-m...-stat-priority So are we really to stack mastery for everything, since it is the best for both single and cleave fights supposedly?

Yes, and I know you already know why, but I'll list it here for a few people who may be wondering.(I'm also on icy-veins, I've followed all yall over there since I was playing my huntard in mop)

1. Since Legion launched, for fire mages, critical strike has been seen as the benchmark for your character, often the community will ask fire mages, "What is your crit" going off the assumption that we scale (edited for clarity)best with crit vs any other stat.
2. However, Crit hasn't been our "primary" stat really since EN(imho, because there are very few single target fights, master scales great with 2+ and crit was simming lower for some in NH when we ran MI+belt).
3. The reason is that crit has always been outshined significantly by mastery in any situation where ignite can be used.(imho, because mastery scales much better with 2+ adds, very few single target bosses as I've mentioned, and to top it all off, on single target bosses you should be frost!)
4. Furthermore, soon after EN most had the legendary belt, giving us scorch crit at sub 30% guaranteed, which makes crit much less important for 30% of the fight as well as the flame on redesign(unarguable that the lego belt devalues crit, imho)
5. Then, we moved from RoP to MI for NH in single target. This heavily increased the value of haste for single target, making crit not optimal for single or multi target(remember mastery is far more important on 2+, but the NH experience is anecdotal with MI+belt)
6. With the introduction of ToS firestarter became the go to talent for all fights as fire(this is true, fs is quite good and no longer a secret, as conflag was recommended quite heavily back then) back in NH I saw many recommending . This further devalued crit, even though we moved away from MI, we also got relics that increased the duration of combustion, as well as a talent, this also hindered crit, meaning less of the uptime we have in fights does not have a guaranteed crit.
7. To recap, now we have
A. Longer combustion phase(true)
B. Scorch crit at 100% sub 30%(true if you have belt)
C. Firestarter giving guaranteed crits for the first 10%(true)
8. That said, crit hasn't simmed well for many of us for a long time, and should never have been used by the community as a measuring stick.(I think the bolded is the line some people have a problem with, sims are individual, so I should not have have added this point)
9. What's worse, if the t21 bonus stays as it is, it looks like combustion may indeed become a larger part of our rotation. The proliferation of kindling or the lego gloves may increase for parsing players which would make the community copy that, which would devalue crit further, making it a lower simming stat.(edit: discussion on this further down)
10. There has always been a community opinion that you need to keep crit up around X%(say 50%) in order to have a QoL as a fire mage. QoL however is not a sim, and one should always take the sims at higher value imho.(true)

[TyrianFC]

Wait a while before jumping to conclusions.

The 4 piece T21 bonus is super strong, and theres a chance the new Fire meta will be using kindling / gloves + wrist legendaries / 4 pce to milk combustions - and crit would increase in value as well (via kindling).

[Zenfoldor]

Wait a while before jumping to conclusions.

The 4 piece T21 bonus is super strong, and theres a chance the new Fire meta will be using kindling / gloves + wrist legendaries / 4 pce to milk combustions - and crit would increase in value as well (via kindling).

Edited: I see what you are saying, you are saying that the increased crit would reduce the cooldown of combustion further. However, I submit it is a double edged sword, I would GUESS that crit would be devalued with kindling since cd reduction on kindling is largely a part of fire blast which is a guaranteed crit, and that guess would be a net loss for crit when you consider the t21 increases combustion duration as well(iirc).

[Dizzeeyooo]

thus giving crit no value during combustion

might want to read the combustion tooltip before you post again in this thread

The 4 piece T21 bonus is super strong, and theres a chance the new Fire meta will be using kindling / gloves + wrist legendaries / 4 pce to milk combustions - and crit would increase in value as well (via kindling).

swapping out Koralon's + dropping firestarter makes crit the best single target stat by far for my mage with 54% crit already, even without the upcoming 50% crit damage 4 set bonus

[Gaexion Ramza Beoulve]

LOL all these bads will become mads if they stop stacking crit.

Do it you won't.

[Ichifails]

Yes, and I know you already know why, but I'll list it here for a few people who may be wondering.

1. Since Legion launched, for fire mages, critical strike has been seen as the benchmark for your character, often the community will ask fire mages, "What is your crit" going off the assumption that we scale positively with crit.
2. However, Crit hasn't been our "primary" stat really since EN.
3. The reason is that crit has always been outshined significantly by mastery in any situation where ignite can be used.
4. Furthermore, soon after EN most had the legendary belt, giving us scorch crit at sub 30% guarnteed, which makes crit much less important for 30% of the fight as well as the flame on redesign
5. Then, we moved from RoP to MI for NH in single target. This heavily increased the value of haste for single target, making crit not optimal for single or multi target(remember mastery is far more important on 2+)
6. With the introduction of ToS firestarter became the go to talent for all fights as fire. This further devalued crit, even though we moved away from MI, we also got relics that increased the duration of combustion, as well as a talent, this also hindered crit, meaning less of the uptime we have in fights does not have a guarnteed crit.
7. To recap, now we have
A. Longer combustion phase
B. Scorch crit at 100% sub 30%
C. Firestarter giving guaranteed crits for the first 10%
8. That said, crit hasn't simmed well for many of us for a long time, and should never have been used by the community as a measuring stick.
9. What's worse, if the t21 bonus stays as it is, it looks like combustion may indeed become a larger part of our rotation. The proliferation of kindling or the lego gloves may increase for parsing players which would make the community copy that, which would devalue crit further, making it a dead stat.
10. There has always been a myth that you need to keep crit up around X%(say 50%) in order to have a QoL as a fire mage. QoL however is not a sim, and one should always take the sims word over the community, which is often vastly behind the times

I'd pay real money to see your WoW char.

[Zenfoldor]

might want to read the combustion tooltip before you post again in this thread


swapping out Koralon's + dropping firestarter makes crit the best single target stat by far for my mage with 54% crit already, even without the upcoming 50% crit damage 4 set bonus

Yeah, I tried to edit that part. The mastery added from combustion is solid but not stacking crit doesn't mean crit = zero. I do believe still believe crit will be devalued further as we go along, but I'll leave that open for opinion, at this point, that's all we got concerning next patch.

Also curious does your single target dps in your sim go up when removing firestarter and belt?

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I'd pay real money to see your WoW char.

Let's not make this thread about roasting 1 individual, I will PM you my character but I'm sure you could find it in my relatively frequent posting history.

[Ichifails]

Let's not make this thread about roasting 1 individual, I will PM you my character but I'm sure you could find it in my relatively frequent posting history.

I had and have no intention to post your armory link, I was just curious.

[Zenfoldor]

I had and have no intention to post your armory link, I was just curious.

Yeah, I know, but you know how it goes, if an armory link is posted it becomes about that and not whatever topic the OP intended. My current gear has some vers gems in there, mainly because it sims well for both frost and fire. I haven't stacked crit as fire since before NH because of sims. In NH, I didn't have the bracers, had belt and hero ring, and haste would always sim higher. For single target I've been running frost and gearing for that. Most high end parses, even on aoe bosses lately for fire are running firestarter. I wasn't seeing that as much during NH, but was seeing a lot of MI in the top parses(which I believe valued haste during NH).

Right now we have most spots already called for.

4p t20
Shark
Owl
Bracer
Belt

That leaves relics and

Neck
2 pieces of set gear slots(assuming you aren't running 2p t19)
boots
rings(about to get 1 lego ring, so reduce to 1 ring)

Stats are flat enough usually, ilvl wins unless you have 5 ilvls difference in gear.

There is not a lot of area to stack(or unstack) much outside of enchants and gems, so everybody ends up pretty close when they get the requisite gear atm. Trying for high ilvl BiS set pieces is probably optimal.

My question would be this to people who think stacking crit has been ideal since the xpak launched for fire mages. If you were running belt and MI on single target during NH, was haste not outsimming crit for you? Also, if you are running belt/bracers and the rest of the gear I mentioned is Crit simming well for you now? Just curious.

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LOL all these bads will become mads if they stop stacking crit.

Do it you won't.

My recommendation is to wait for sims, who knows how it will end up really, t21 may change.

[fiestatastic]

Not really, it's still the best stat by far for the majority of average people playing mage .... but it's become the worst stat for people that have been maining fire mage all xpac and at the very least have the legendary belt and tier bonuses.

Crit being devalued comes from specific gear that guides make the assumption that any player reading those guides has. Without those specific pieces crit is still #1 or close to it.

[Dizzeeyooo]

Also curious does your single target dps in your sim go up when removing firestarter and belt?

obviously not, the belt is bis for a reason and everyone is using firestarter vs almost every ToS boss for a reason

the point I was making was, as things stand right now crit will not be the worst stat with the new tier set equipped - firestarter and the legendary belt are the main things devaluing crit currently and you will probably not be using the belt and almost certainly not be using firestarter in the next raid once you get the new tier

this will hopefully change slightly once the 4set gets hotfix nerfed the week mythic launches, because the belt is fun and the gloves are boring, but that is beside the point

[seniorproc]

yes crit is the worst secondary stat for me. when i sim without firestarter it becomes a bit better, but all are very close without firestarter. im 939 equipped with belt and bracers and 4p ofc

[skitzin]

My understanding was that Fire basically gets a lot of "free crit" already which naturally pushes the value of the other stats higher.

[Dizzeeyooo]

yes crit is the worst secondary stat for me. when i sim without firestarter it becomes a bit better, but all are very close without firestarter. im 939 equipped with belt and bracers and 4p ofc

so replace your belt with something else, and see what happens

[Zenfoldor]

I had a couple of PMs asking about simming, how I am simming, ect. I'm not sure how long a raidbots link lasts, but here is what I'm basing my current assumptions on:

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/repo...NphT7NQbRCxkwq

For me currently crit is > int, but the lowest secondary stat. You can see my gear/chants that I would run for single target fire, as I made the sim for this thread to try and emulate how I would spec if I ran fire as single target. Anyway, what is what I'm getting. Curious to know if most other fire mages have similar secondary sims already. If so, that article doesn't need to wait for next raid to put crit at the bottom(at least for me).

Running all mandatory gear at 927 using the standard build(meteor over kindling), and running all haste or int gems/chants I'm getting(I'm still using the int gem for no good reason):

Stat Weights
Haste 23.46
Mastery 22.60
Vers 21.90
Crit 20.99
Int 19.14

Really flat, but consider this, mastery is almost the best stat on a single target sim. How much more valuable is mastery with multiple targets. I'd consider my best fire mage build to include mastery over haste as the primary stat allotment after mandatory gear(which should end you up somewhere in the 50% crit range ANYWAY), and as far as relics, I'd love to see what a build like that which used ignite relics could do in an aoe fight.

When you hear "don't stack crit" you have so much mandatory gear that you have to stack it anyway. Mastery skyrockets with 2 targets, and sims great in all scenarios for me in that gear.

What is mandatory gear?

Have a look here:

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...Mage&spec=Fire

You will see the mandatory gear is:

1. 4 pieces of t20
2. Shark Trinket
3. Owl Trinket
4. Legendary Bracers
5. Legendary Belt

The only pieces of gear you even have a choice to "stack" on is:

1. 1x Neck
2. 2x Rings
3. 2x non set pieces
4. 1x Boots

Better yet? Stats are so flat, ilvl > all in most cases. This is also considering a huge portion of the pie that is your stats comes form another mandatory piece of gear shared by all, your artifact.

Stacking stuff was great early on in the xpak before set bonuses and with classes that have huge disparities in secondary value, but it is almost meaningless now. Gem and enchant based on simcraft, imho, and go with ilvl. Relic to taste within reason and for your personal character, ie: do you multispec, should you play to the specs strength or try to make it one size fits all.

Just wanted to try an anecdotal experiment on my character, doesn't prove anything but may be interesting: How low can you even get your crit wearing the necessary gear to parse averagely? With my current gear, that number is 51.3% in game without buffs with a 12,119 crit rating and that is with reducing ilvl boots to lose crit(not done in the stat weight sim linked above). That is trying to remove as much crit as possible while still equipping gear in that slot w/ mandatory items at 927, no crit gems or chants, and 51.3% is fine for QoL in my experience as well.

[Alvito]

If you have the t 20 2 set, the legendary belt and spec for firestarter then crits value plummets. If you don't have those items or spec that way then it has more value. The reason it drops so much is these things either give you guaranteed crits or add huge crit % buffs. Spells critically hitting is still very important those items just make that happen on it's own.

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so replace your belt with something else, and see what happens

Why would you do that though? The belt is a top 2 legendary in just about every case. Who cares what your sims might be without it, if you have it you should be using it.

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The only pieces of gear you even have a choice to "stack" on is:

1. 1x Neck
2. 2x Rings
3. 2x non set pieces
4. 1x Boots

The tier you use also allows you to move stats around as well as gems/enchants, those to much less of an effect. If you have the legendary belt, t 20 2 set and spec for firestarter if you are still in the 50% or higher range you are wasting a lot of secondary stats.

[Dizzeeyooo]

Why would you do that though? The belt is a top 2 legendary in just about every case. Who cares what your sims might be without it, if you have it you should be using it.

as it stands right now you won't be using the belt next patch, so what's the harm in checking

Edit: but you already get the point I was making, as

If you have the t 20 2 set, the legendary belt and spec for firestarter then crits value plummets. If you don't have those items or spec that way then it has more value

shows, so nvm