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  1. #81
    If you are talking about mythic, i believe the lack of tunings/changes to bosses like Mistress, Avatar and KJ took too long to happen.

    Mistress was the 1st big wall and the fight was absurdly harder than Sisters or Desolate Host. The nerf came and the boss now is a lot easier than she was before.
    Avatar is the 2nd wall. In my personal experience progressing through the fight, it is much more doable now without stacking rogues simply because they remover 1 touch of sargeras.
    Cant comment on KJ, but i can say that we have no guardian druids at the moment, so we are pretty much screwed :P.

    One thing to add as well. The gaps between raid tiers have become much smaller and that contributes a lot to burnout. We went from Emerald Nightmare directly to ToV directly into The Nighthold. After Nighthold ended, we had only 3-4 weeks before Tomb of Sargeras came out.

    Of course, all of the above are personal experiences, so it doesn't apply to everyone :P
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  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Ferozan View Post
    Cant comment on KJ, but i can say that we have no guardian druids at the moment, so we are pretty much screwed :P.
    Yep, never before I felt so let down by the fact my chances of finishing the tier are close to zero. I main a tank. I don't main a druid. My druid alt is set up for resto. I'm not an officer / raid leader / gm in a guild where I can set up a team around me. So yep, never gonna see the end boss. Amazing perspective.

    And that was the last reason I bother with mythic, to earn my cutting edge and feel I've done it, not buy a boost or breeze through mythic 2 tiers or 2 expansions later. And it's not that before I had enough skill to raid mythic for years and I suddenly lost it now. I was never raiding at world top level but just enough to complete mythic in time for the achievement. And at the moment due to Blizzard fotm roulette, I'm constantly getting short end of the stick.

    Up until now, you could play at world rank 500-1000 with a lot of wiggle room what class you pick, as long as you were decent at it and doing the mechanics, but this is no longer the case.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferozan View Post
    One thing to add as well. The gaps between raid tiers have become much smaller and that contributes a lot to burnout. We went from Emerald Nightmare directly to ToV directly into The Nighthold. After Nighthold ended, we had only 3-4 weeks before Tomb of Sargeras came out.
    Yes, that too, lots of guilds have extra raids during progression and then expect a chill period of farm where they can play alts or other games for 1-2 months except raid logging 1-2 evenings so they can muster the energy for the next tier. What's worse, guilds that by now would be done with Nighthold (2-3 months into the tier) and enjoy their R&R in TOS are still stuck on Avatar or KJ so they probably won't have any break at all.

  3. #83
    The smaller gaps in between raids is Blizzard responding to the criticism of WoD and SoO of how raid tiers were lasting too long and how there was a long period of how there was nothing to do. I don't mind blizz making raid tiers go by faster, but there are some things that I think if they didn't exist the burnout wouldn't be too bad. There should have been no paragon or concordance ranks. Only the initial traits at launch, the extra traits in 7.2, and finally now the crucible, so that players wouldn't feel to grind nearly every day. The warforge system is also completely messed up. It was fine in WoD in mop, idk why they made it so ridiculous in Legion, maybe keep titanforging in M+ but keep it away from raiding and everything else. And finally there is the Legendary system, but I think everyone knows why that is an issue.

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Varolyn View Post
    The smaller gaps in between raids is Blizzard responding to the criticism of WoD and SoO of how raid tiers were lasting too long and how there was a long period of how there was nothing to do. I don't mind blizz making raid tiers go by faster, but there are some things that I think if they didn't exist the burnout wouldn't be too bad. There should have been no paragon or concordance ranks. Only the initial traits at launch, the extra traits in 7.2, and finally now the crucible, so that players wouldn't feel to grind nearly every day. The warforge system is also completely messed up. It was fine in WoD in mop, idk why they made it so ridiculous in Legion, maybe keep titanforging in M+ but keep it away from raiding and everything else. And finally there is the Legendary system, but I think everyone knows why that is an issue.
    Fully agreed with your points.

    Also Blizzard doesn't seem to know moderation. People complained about raid tiers lasting 12-14 months, but that doesn't mean they have to cut it down to 5... 7-9 would be just fine, and most complaints were towards large gaps at the end of expansion, the mid-tiers were often deemed to short in the past (Ulduar, TOT, BRF).

    Same thing with tuning, people complained mythic Xavius was too easy, ok, let's make a knee jerk reaction and design bosses like pre-nerf mythic Helya or now mythic KJ that are literally the dev way of telling players "you think you want to raid mythic but you don't". I thought we left the mentality "only 0.01% of the playerbase deserves to see the endboss" somewhere in the depths of vanilla.

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Marrilaife View Post
    Fully agreed with your points.

    Also Blizzard doesn't seem to know moderation. People complained about raid tiers lasting 12-14 months, but that doesn't mean they have to cut it down to 5... 7-9 would be just fine, and most complaints were towards large gaps at the end of expansion, the mid-tiers were often deemed to short in the past (Ulduar, TOT, BRF).

    Same thing with tuning, people complained mythic Xavius was too easy, ok, let's make a knee jerk reaction and design bosses like pre-nerf mythic Helya or now mythic KJ that are literally the dev way of telling players "you think you want to raid mythic but you don't". I thought we left the mentality "only 0.01% of the playerbase deserves to see the endboss" somewhere in the depths of vanilla.
    I'm only a heroic raider, so what I know from Mythic is merely observation. But from what I have seen, it appears the mythic version of the raid is full of artificial difficulty. Kind of reminds me of the Halo 2 legendary campaign; a very difficult game but difficult for all the wrong reasons. Maybe blizz should make raids more like SoO or HFC, challenging raids but fair and rewarding.

    Tbf, I enjoy Legion, and there are a lot of good things about it. But I also feel the raids so far have only been okish, even from a heroic standpoint. But who knows, if Antorus ends up being great, people will end up looking at Legion raiding favorably because of final impressions.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Dekkers View Post
    Cool man. Enjoy your gear that gets replaced in 3 months.
    So many reasons not to raid. Blizzard has killed all incentives to get good gear.
    those incentives were never there - raid gear was replaced each tier since WoLK - there was never point to chase it unless you raided hardmodes.

    you just didnt want to admit it.

  7. #87
    Deleted
    Attendance is OK, but I think the big problem is that with the exception of Maiden, for raiders who have quit every boss becomes magnitudes harder than the previous boss. On KJ now so hype is carrying though but I am sure after wipe 300 it'll die down. Looks like that is shared amongst the raid community too, as 2-3x less guilds have killed KJ than GD and I'm aware of alot of guilds actually just waiting for nerfs before pulling KJ.

  8. #88
    imo, most of ToS fights arent really engaging enough and alot of them have similar soak mechanics with heavy punishment or insta wipe on most of them, which for me personally is NOT fun. over the time, raiders got better, gone are the days, where most personal mistakes lead to only the persons death and now raids are moving from designating few most consistent people to do the more complicated mechanics to every single raid member having massive responsibility for the raid and not in small doses like NH, but on almost every single fight and more frequently, too. A person doesnt necessarily have to be bad, if he fucks up 1 in twenty pulls, thats 95% pulls done properly, which is IMO good enough for average mythic raider, heck, even everyone fucking up one in twenty pulls isnt that bad tbh, problem is, now when you fuck up, you take the entire raid with you and there is very little to salvage with resses etc, GG, not fun at all.

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Tonus View Post
    Unsub and wait for them to stop gating everything behind legendaries like they've done for the past 3 expansions.
    Can't speak for Legion but whut?
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    Posting here is primarily a way to strengthen your own viewpoint against common counter-arguments.

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Marrilaife View Post
    Up until now, you could play at world rank 500-1000 with a lot of wiggle room what class you pick, as long as you were decent at it and doing the mechanics, but this is no longer the case.
    Out of curiosity (as I don't raid Mythic this expansion), can't you just co-tank with another druid? Last time I raided in HFC, I remember guilds getting fucked over not having a DK or two for Manno but I guess it's way easier to fit in a necessary DPS-role and still get a kill on a non-optimal class.
    Quote Originally Posted by UcanDoSht View Post
    Nobody is stopping you to play Elemental casually during questing or raiding #1000 with your disabled mage friends.

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate View Post
    We were realm 2nd and have had to cut 1 or 2 days a week now due to attendance issues.

    Blizzard really burned people out and the fact they basically reset the grind on professions and the game with Argus makes recruitment even hard as older players quit and newer players don't have any legendaries or AP.

    Sure they can catch up, but they have to play a lot per Legion game design.

    Pretty sure the guild will just fall apart in a few weeks. What can you do?
    Find a guild full of sensible people who understand that just because the game will let you grind a ton, doesn't mean you have to. Blizzard didn't burn anyone out. People do it to themselves.

  12. #92
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Cheze View Post
    okay, but that wasn't the point, was it? Previous poster was talking about benching people for having the wrong legendaries, which didn't really happen early on and happens even less now (as the bad ones have been brought to near-parity in most cases)

    in any case attrition happens over the course of every expansion
    thats exactly what i said,it doesnt happen.
    i simply included the first two lines because this level of stupidity tilts me - you have to be stupid on a new level to compare bosses at different times.

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Mlz View Post
    Out of curiosity (as I don't raid Mythic this expansion), can't you just co-tank with another druid?
    You do realize most guilds have an officer or a raid leader in the "main tank" role who will not switch over but rather make the other person switch over or bench them and recruit the class they want?

    Theoretically in a perfect world yes, I could of course co-tank with a druid. There are several kills with a druid + another tank and a few kills with 2 bears + another tank (3 tank strat). Plenty of kills with just 2 bears as well of course.

    In practice atm even guilds down the 1,5k world rank are recruiting only druids for tank spots. Despite them not having mythic KJ anywhere close in sights, but they're already planning ahead (or just following fotm like a sheep, your pick).

    Already got dicked over by one guild on mythic Gul'dan because they didn't like me playing a non fotm tank so they replaced me with a monk because "stagger is foolproof", finished tier with another guild and coming to TOS I've already faced an ultimatum I will be offered a trial spot as a tank only if I don't play a paladin but reroll. Unfortunately my druid is set up for resto (legendaries and so on) plus I found bear boring as hell so I never prepped it because I thought these kind of things only happen in world top guilds (being forced to switch class or maintaining raid ready alts for splits and class stacking) and I never aspired to play in world top guilds anyway.

    Reality is surprising though, as I said, either they will have to nerf mythic KJ to the point of unrecognizeability in 1-2 months or we'll see extremely diminished number of kills in comparison to Gul'dan (which I think was killed by around 1,5k-1,7k guilds by the time TOS launched and achievement was removed). I'm slowly starting to see less-fotm comps (fewer rogues, non-fotm dps like ele shamans, dhs, ret palas, monks, fewer immunity classes overall) but I'm yet to see a kill with 0 bears.

    Tbh it's been uphill struggle in general to find a guild as a tank because most guilds only want one from within their inner circle to be a tank, and if they recruit an outsider, there are always hoops you need to jump through. Since HFC I had this problem "lf tank, no paladin, monk / dk preferred", just the preferred class changed to warrior, then druid / monk, now druid again, but for some reason, it's never paladin, even though I played it since wotlk. I tried at some point to play a hunter and it's astounding how much easier it is to be recruited as a range dps. Sadly I didn't really enjoy the experience of being a dps main.

    But for KJ it's a legit problem tanks are not equal and it's not just guild's fotm mentality it's literally the encounter design at fault. And worst part is there is no mount, no tier, nothing really to incentivize to rekill it, I can live with being benched for a druid if the encounter calls for it but something tells me nobody's gonna bother to kill it another time after struggling for weeks and months to get that achiev. Even the hardcore guilds took a week break after killing KJ, many guilds progressing on KJ will be extending to not rekill Avatar as well because they hate this boss, and I'm pretty sure no one wants to waste extra wipes so the benched person with 0 xp can get the achiev when you can slot instead a person with weeks of xp for smoother rekill when it finally comes to it.

    I can't really blame guilds for wanting the best setup and following fotm, but I feel quite bitter towards Blizzard for the tank balance this expansion despite them claiming how class balance is better than ever. Hey, you're a paladin not a monk / bear / warrior, you bench on Guarm (at least that got nerfed later to break the 1-tank strat), hey, you're a paladin not a monk / bear, you bench on Star Augur, now again, hey, you're not a bear, you bench on KJ.

    If someone asked what tank to play, I always believed they should play the one they like the most and are most comfortable with, if someone asked what's most important in the tank recruitment, I always thought reliability and consistency are most important, not the class they pick. And Legion is slowly killing my faith in that.

    And what bothers me with KJ is not explicitly that "it's a hard boss", last boss of the tier should be hard, it's that "it's hard in general and on top of it it's much more harder if you don't bring the correct classes" so nobody is really willing to risk a sub-optimal comp on a boss that takes hundreds of pulls (or in extreme cases like Exorsus first kill over 1,5k pulls) even with good comp to down.

    Imagine if they nerfed the damage you take from armageddon dot ticks / stacks but made immunity not clear them only temporarily suppress the damage (akin to harjatan bleed, you can bop it preventing damage for few seconds, but not cancel stacks). Imagine they added extra second or two from swirls spawning to armageddons landing so the stampeding roars wouldn't be so crucial to let everyone reach their position in time. And few other changes that lower the disparity between fotm comp and non-fotm comp.

    There was a person I quoted earlier that said "we don't have bears, we're screwed", these kind of guilds need the help the most, they have the skill and the willingness to wipe until they kill it, but they have "wrong" classes. It's fine if a class brings some cool perk to a fight, it's not fine when the fight is not doable or 10 times worse without that perk. It's different when you need 1 mage or warlock for Gul'dan among 14 dps, it's not fine when you need 4 rogues or 7 immunity classes or only 1 tank class out of 6.

    Atm my guild is still progressing on Avatar but there are already people voicing the willingness to step down and quit the game, so I'm really worried will we have the roster to finish the tier because you aren't doing the last few mythic bosses with rookies.

  14. #94
    What was wrong with EN model of raiding? 1-2 months of progress to per tier to kill the final boss is more than enough to satisfy most peoples' raiding appetite. Do we really need to raid nonstop for months upon months to finish a tier?

  15. #95
    Well EN was retarded easy.

    Our guild on the first day of raiding in Legion had 60 people show up - so we made two groups.

    Right now, on some raid days we have ~14.

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Marrilaife View Post
    You do realize most guilds have an officer or a raid leader in the "main tank" role who will not switch over but rather make the other person switch over or bench them and recruit the class they want?

    Theoretically in a perfect world yes, I could of course co-tank with a druid. There are several kills with a druid + another tank and a few kills with 2 bears + another tank (3 tank strat). Plenty of kills with just 2 bears as well of course.

    In practice atm even guilds down the 1,5k world rank are recruiting only druids for tank spots. Despite them not having mythic KJ anywhere close in sights, but they're already planning ahead (or just following fotm like a sheep, your pick).

    Already got dicked over by one guild on mythic Gul'dan because they didn't like me playing a non fotm tank so they replaced me with a monk because "stagger is foolproof", finished tier with another guild and coming to TOS I've already faced an ultimatum I will be offered a trial spot as a tank only if I don't play a paladin but reroll. Unfortunately my druid is set up for resto (legendaries and so on) plus I found bear boring as hell so I never prepped it because I thought these kind of things only happen in world top guilds (being forced to switch class or maintaining raid ready alts for splits and class stacking) and I never aspired to play in world top guilds anyway.

    Reality is surprising though, as I said, either they will have to nerf mythic KJ to the point of unrecognizeability in 1-2 months or we'll see extremely diminished number of kills in comparison to Gul'dan (which I think was killed by around 1,5k-1,7k guilds by the time TOS launched and achievement was removed). I'm slowly starting to see less-fotm comps (fewer rogues, non-fotm dps like ele shamans, dhs, ret palas, monks, fewer immunity classes overall) but I'm yet to see a kill with 0 bears.

    Tbh it's been uphill struggle in general to find a guild as a tank because most guilds only want one from within their inner circle to be a tank, and if they recruit an outsider, there are always hoops you need to jump through. Since HFC I had this problem "lf tank, no paladin, monk / dk preferred", just the preferred class changed to warrior, then druid / monk, now druid again, but for some reason, it's never paladin, even though I played it since wotlk. I tried at some point to play a hunter and it's astounding how much easier it is to be recruited as a range dps. Sadly I didn't really enjoy the experience of being a dps main.

    But for KJ it's a legit problem tanks are not equal and it's not just guild's fotm mentality it's literally the encounter design at fault. And worst part is there is no mount, no tier, nothing really to incentivize to rekill it, I can live with being benched for a druid if the encounter calls for it but something tells me nobody's gonna bother to kill it another time after struggling for weeks and months to get that achiev. Even the hardcore guilds took a week break after killing KJ, many guilds progressing on KJ will be extending to not rekill Avatar as well because they hate this boss, and I'm pretty sure no one wants to waste extra wipes so the benched person with 0 xp can get the achiev when you can slot instead a person with weeks of xp for smoother rekill when it finally comes to it.

    I can't really blame guilds for wanting the best setup and following fotm, but I feel quite bitter towards Blizzard for the tank balance this expansion despite them claiming how class balance is better than ever. Hey, you're a paladin not a monk / bear / warrior, you bench on Guarm (at least that got nerfed later to break the 1-tank strat), hey, you're a paladin not a monk / bear, you bench on Star Augur, now again, hey, you're not a bear, you bench on KJ.

    If someone asked what tank to play, I always believed they should play the one they like the most and are most comfortable with, if someone asked what's most important in the tank recruitment, I always thought reliability and consistency are most important, not the class they pick. And Legion is slowly killing my faith in that.

    And what bothers me with KJ is not explicitly that "it's a hard boss", last boss of the tier should be hard, it's that "it's hard in general and on top of it it's much more harder if you don't bring the correct classes" so nobody is really willing to risk a sub-optimal comp on a boss that takes hundreds of pulls (or in extreme cases like Exorsus first kill over 1,5k pulls) even with good comp to down.

    Imagine if they nerfed the damage you take from armageddon dot ticks / stacks but made immunity not clear them only temporarily suppress the damage (akin to harjatan bleed, you can bop it preventing damage for few seconds, but not cancel stacks). Imagine they added extra second or two from swirls spawning to armageddons landing so the stampeding roars wouldn't be so crucial to let everyone reach their position in time. And few other changes that lower the disparity between fotm comp and non-fotm comp.

    There was a person I quoted earlier that said "we don't have bears, we're screwed", these kind of guilds need the help the most, they have the skill and the willingness to wipe until they kill it, but they have "wrong" classes. It's fine if a class brings some cool perk to a fight, it's not fine when the fight is not doable or 10 times worse without that perk. It's different when you need 1 mage or warlock for Gul'dan among 14 dps, it's not fine when you need 4 rogues or 7 immunity classes or only 1 tank class out of 6.

    Atm my guild is still progressing on Avatar but there are already people voicing the willingness to step down and quit the game, so I'm really worried will we have the roster to finish the tier because you aren't doing the last few mythic bosses with rookies.
    Your tldr post is summed up in few sentences.

    You play paladin, you suffer it is simple as that the paladin design atm does not allow you to do ToS as efficient as druid/warrior/monk/dk.
    Paladins and DH's are in the same boat useless due to how they are designed.

    While in NH you could get away with playing either one of those if you played perfect now in ToS you just cannot do that on bosses like KJ/Avatar.
    There is like 1 paladin i believe or was until recently that has killed those bosses and they only took him because his probably the best paladin tank in the world or on par with Lazel and even Lazel played monk for 1st kj kill he did.

    All in all you put your self in this boat.
    You refuse to re-roll then you miss content if designers do it like they do now and while you can continue blaming them you could just bite the bullet and re-roll a suitable class for tier or 2 or expansion and then go back to Paladin.

  17. #97
    Deleted
    been in 4 guilds this expansion, lost one to infighting over mythic + cliques, lost anther to the GM wanting to carry his mates so most left to make a new guild, that couldn't get 20 decent enough players for mythic so folded, then got a mythic guild that did some good progress in night hold until suddenly only 17-18 would turn up so they collapsed now i have given up on mythic screw it to hell never want to do it again you put in days and days of effort grinding only to log on and see your under manned waste of time when heroic and m+ can get you the same gear with half the stress and just 10-12-15 what ever good mates and some beers.

    now im not having a go at the expac i think on the whole this is one of the best and id take 1000 legions before another wod or cata. but the things they dropped the ball on have been pretty big the AP grind has been in my view poorly done i understand what they were trying to do giving us a resource and a sense of steady progression but they should have known shit that like becomes a mandatory thing to have capped and i know its burnt alot out. the other thing is legendary's i am absolute dead set against the legendary's for all mentality and this is coming from some one who never ever got a legendary prio to mop i think its only served to devalue legendary and add another mandatory grind ( also it made my ass of a friend right who said back in wotlk they will one day make legendary's common), legendary in my mind should take a whole guild working together to make for one lucky person thats what made them special.

  18. #98
    Deleted
    been in two collapsed guilds on Doomhammer horde during legion, dead realm but even still, horde #1 at 5/9 Mythic? Kabooooooom gone

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Ebalina View Post
    You refuse to re-roll then you miss content if designers do it like they do now and while you can continue blaming them you could just bite the bullet and re-roll a suitable class for tier or 2 or expansion and then go back to Paladin.
    I did reroll, playing a dk atm, but still they're not exactly desirable for KJ since they can't cheese knockbacks and don't provide much to the raid except grips in shadow phase (that's not really a lot).

    I don't understand why should I be fine with the fact Blizzard plagued my main class with continuous bad design decisions and then long neglect when people provided feedback it should be changed. Even after the last buff there were tons of tweet answers from top paladin players like Lazel and so on that it's not exactly the direction that would fix the class, but ofc "Blizzard knows better".

    Also the whole design of Legion starting with artifact ending with legendaries was supposed to reward you for dedicating to 1 class while punishing you for constant fotm rerolls. Yea, I knew several other people who bit the bullet and rerolled away from nerfed classes / specs, but many of them just burnt out from regrinding legendaries and quit. I might be enduring it because I still want to raid mythic but I can't say with a straight face this is good game design.

    I think I've seen quite harsh dropoff mid-NH when first people came to mythic Krosus and saw some classes / specs don't perform at acceptable level to down this boss (for the level of the guild they were in), they prompted to switch, grinded gear, AP and legendaries for few weeks and then just burnt out and quit or at least took a few months break. I have battletag friends that are marked offline for 1-4 months by now, many of them good players I dearly miss.

    TOS seems to suffer similar fate, especially in melee dps department the desired classes are rogue and warrior and if you play something else and aren't a god at it, good luck finding a suitable guild.

    I don't think it's just my personal pet peeve what Blizzard did with my main class, in general I do feel like a lot of people quit both in NH and in TOS from mythic raiding and I believe one reason for that is in the past people could switch classes and especially specs much easier without the big backlog of "stuff to regrind", especially classes like rogues or warlocks treated it as their advantage they can switch specs on a whim depending what is better for which boss, it made them more versatile, and now they need different weapon (ap, relics) and different legendaries to do so efficiently.

    I also doubt I'm the only person who feels diminished enjoyment from the game when I just can't play the class I mained for a long time. There are some people who don't care about this, they just want to play "what is the best class" (we always see threads popping around asking what to play in this manner). But there are people who want to play a specific class and don't ask it to be always "the best" it's enough that it's not dragging the raid team down.

    Obviously we will never know 100% why people really quit, but judging from the wowprogress numbers, indeed the numbers in mythic TOS are lower then in NH, and these are lower than in EN, however people will just say that's because EN was undertuned so more people finished it because it was easier to do so.

    Personally I agree Xavius was an unfinished boss (people speculated it was supposed to have more extra mechanics but it got shipped in the "too easy" state due to maybe some extra mechanics missing), but I don't agree whole mythic EN was a joke, especially Cenarius was a big roadblock, thing is Cenarius got significantly easier with more gear as it allowed to skip phases, and that's something we didn't see since then because nowadays most bosses are first time killed with already +5~10 ilvl over what they drop so there's very little room for getting help from extra gear.

    Even the crucible while it provides +15 ilvl on the weapon, it's not gonna be that impactful in overall gear ilvl and unless someone is lucky with crazy rolls (like triple avoidance shadow power) I'm not sure it will make a significant breakthrough for guilds unlike valor upgrades were in the past, as they applied to all gear not just weapon.

    And we kinda know since wotlk and the infamous icc buff that lots of guilds are "just a bit short" and need that extra help to actually keep progressing instead of being stuck forever. Well at least the nerfs to Mistress pushed a good number of guilds over the threshold, so I guess we'll see forward. Because people will lose motivation (not all of them, maybe not even many, but losing let's say 5 raiders can be enough to kill a guild) if they feel "stuck", "hit the brick wall" and so forth.

    Some will say these players are not good enough and don't deserve the kill, but that's bad for business, if they quit and unsub, that's less money for Blizzard. And since Nighthold had several waves of nerfs I guess I'm not wrong in my assessment that Blizzard rather gives people incentive to keep trying than just tell them "you ain't good enough for this mythic thing, come back next tier".

  20. #100
    It'd be interesting to see how implementing "Mythic+" difficulty ramping would work out for raiding.

    Seemingly, this would allow them to have an adequate challenge for any and all groups of players, while maintaining a "true endgame" for those with an eye towards competitive gameplay.

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